Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

[Nitro Indigo]

One thing I never liked about TV Tropes is that it's the place where I see the idea that Japanese fiction is somehow inherently different from fiction from anywhere else in the world, by which they mean an Anglophone monolith called "the West", the most. Think about all of those tropes that are just the same but in Japan (eg: Not Even Bothering with the Accent vs. Anime Accent Absence, or Creator Provincialism vs. Tokyo is the Centre of the Universe).

Last night, I read the Alternate Calender page, which basically says that this trope is Values Dissonance because Japan has had its own calendars... even though most of the examples in said folder were sci-fi ones that were similar to entries in other folders, and the real life folder mentions the calendars of a bunch of different countries.

 

[canisaries]

yes. any of them

<3

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

One thing I never liked about TV Tropes is that it's the place where I see the idea that Japanese fiction is somehow inherently different from fiction from anywhere else in the world, by which they mean an Anglophone monolith called "the West", the most. Think about all of those tropes that are just the same but in Japan (eg: Not Even Bothering with the Accent vs. Anime Accent Absence, or Creator Provincialism vs. Tokyo is the Centre of the Universe).

Tv Tropes is...disorganized. There isn't one person writing every article, and the general consensus is "don't rock the boat". If a person who's into movies and a person who's into anime both create articles, they might not even be aware of each other's articles until completely unrelated people start adding examples. Thus, duplicates.

That said, I do believe there's worth comparing Japanese and "Western" works together. I'm currently investigating a significant shory-based localization change between the US and Japanese releases of Pokémon: XD, for instance. It's tied into differences between Japanese and "Western" religious practices. Becoming familiar with Shinto and Kami can help understand how sonn Japanese works are created, in the same way becoming familiar with Christianity can help decipher J.R.R. Tolkien's or Lewis Carroll's writings.

As for whether Tv Tropes is a good vector for that...probably not. The site's good at spotting patterns, not so much differences. It's a good resource, but remember the authors are pseudo-anonymous and likely amateurs. It's no substitute for an English degree, but it's a good foot-in-the-door for certain concepts.

EDIT: Forgot the "not" of "probably not". Underlined difference for clarify.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

Nitro's absolutely right to pick up on the reductionism by the TVT community of media into essentially Anglo-American and Japanese. I haven't binged there in years now, but I recall that being a clear trend. Of course, since invested tropers are likely to consume only English language media, and only Japanese media has broken out wildly in America, it's not much of a surprise. Just feels like a big blind spot.

@Rockapheller - welcome, pleased to meet you. You may find this thread helpful.

 

[Beth Pavell]

It's not a completely artificial divide, though I think perhaps too much is made of "Western" media, when "Western" is really used to mean "US". The increasing popularity of anime outside of Japan (Though it's worth pointing out that anime is still very much a niche interest in that context) is eroding the differences ... to cut a ramble short, tropes are tools, and they are going to have their limitations

 

[The Walrein]

i'm a big fan of friendly giants too, and i've had plans for a short story starring one, buuut as always i'm stuck with not knowing how to form the plot. always happens - no shortage of characters or premises in this mind, but stringing it into a working story is where it hits a roadblock. if i figured out how to end stories, i could just fit the puzzle pieces in and be a much more prolific author.

If you're having trouble figuring out how to end one of your stories, have you considered just letting it have an unhappy ending? Thinking of a way to show characters failing to solve their problems and being destroyed by their own flaws is usually easier than thinking of a realistic way they can solve them.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

If you're having trouble figuring out how to end one of your stories, have you considered just letting it have an unhappy ending? Thinking of a way to show characters failing to solve their problems and being destroyed by their own flaws is usually easier than thinking of a realistic way they can solve them.

Welcome to the Written Word, @The Walrein! Nice entrance.

Speaking as someone who's a little more familiar with your output @canisaries, I'm not sure your fics facilitate happy endings. "Epic downfall" might be the way to go. For instance, based on the premise, Dragony's protagonist could:

• Optimistic Case: Protagonist gives up after emotional high point where all the evidence is stacked against them, learns lesson about becoming too headstrong, compromises (stays an Eevee, makes any needed amends to the best of their ability, but redirects their focus towards learning dragon-inspired techniques under the tutorage of a dragon-type Pokémon)
• Pessimistic Case: Protagonist becomes dangerously devoted to their goal, refuses to give up after emotional high point presenting all the evidence against them. Wastes their life chasing an impossible dream and/or turns aggressive against anyone who says they're wasting their time

I'm being presumptuous, though (I'm not remotely caught up on Dragony). Walrein's more general advice might be more helpful, depending on the plot so far. And it's applicable to more than just one fic (and more than just one author. I'm looking at you, person reading this post that isn't canis or Walrein. Well, not literally looking at you. That's Amazon's job).

 

[canisaries]

If you're having trouble figuring out how to end one of your stories, have you considered just letting it have an unhappy ending? Thinking of a way to show characters failing to solve their problems and being destroyed by their own flaws is usually easier than thinking of a realistic way they can solve them.

well i mean that definitely works for my more serious stuff (which snuggle is thinking of), but a bulk of the ideas i get are in the ballpark of my PMDesque stories (which include dragony) which i specifically write to have something more lighthearted (even considering the more effed up content sometimes included). unhappy endings in those cases would just be an awkward sudden tonal shift.

 

[GastlyGibus]

i'm a big fan of friendly giants too, and i've had plans for a short story starring one, buuut as always i'm stuck with not knowing how to form the plot. always happens - no shortage of characters or premises in this mind, but stringing it into a working story is where it hits a roadblock. if i figured out how to end stories, i could just fit the puzzle pieces in and be a much more prolific author.

in case the story never sees the light of day, here's some concept art of the main characters

I don't know if this will help you, since it kind of sounds like the problem you're having, but for me, I've always felt that working backwards in a story helps me. As in, start with an ending, and then figure out how they got to that point. It's kind of like traveling; you start with your destination and then figure out how you're going to get there. Also helps to reduce any kind of plot inconsistencies or holes, since you know in advance how it's going to end, and you can work things around that so they make sense. Or, since you mentioned puzzles, you can take that literally. You know what the finished puzzle is supposed to look like, so now you have a general idea of which piece goes where.

 

[Legacy]

Hello everyone.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

Hi, @Legacy!

So, earlier today, I went to open up a savings account and get a credit card and swap my tech insurance and it was all very draining, but satisfying. Good to get this stuff done. Meanwhile, the new chapter of DE seems to be well received by most of those who've read it so far, which is wonderful. It's a lovely day!

If only I didn't feel physically rough.

The other thing I wanted to say here was, hey anyone! I'm now taking characters in my Colour Wheel thread to assign a colour ID. Take a look!

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

unhappy endings in those cases would just be an awkward sudden tonal shift.

Spitballing: based on the tone you're going for, you can do an ending that isn't 100% happy but isn't 100% unhappy, euther. For instance, Explorers of Sky's ending was IMO shaping up to be a nice story about dealing with the death of a loved one, but then there's a literal deus ex machina and the credits roll before any lessons can be learned. I bet there's a way for Eevee to fail to become a dragon-type, but learn the classic coming-of-age lesson "you can't grown up to be what you want". Then there can be an emotional scene where they temper their dreams, then a cut to them having made peace in a positive manner. Maybe something like this:

Spoiler: Grownups

Image credit: xkcd

Only instead of deciding what "grown ups" are, Eevee can decide for themselves what it means to be a dragon. Eevee can learn a lot of moves thanks to Let's Go: Eevee. Perhaps they can learn dragon-type techniques and form a successful rescue/exploration/whatever team around that?

 

[canisaries]

well, i have dragony planned out plot wise (it's the execution that's being wonky) and, trying not to spoil too much, but you're not terribly far away.

with the other stories... i'm starting to wonder if i'm having trouble with the endings either because the conflicts aren't clear or they're just too strong to resolve in a short story (without a deus ex machina or other cop-out, that is). if the problem is nation-wide, you can't defeat it like you'd do a singular bad guy, but my stories tend to have considerable man vs society vibes... sure, you can create a character to function as a figurehead, but realistically defeating them isn't going to change everyone who follows them.

is my achilles' heel just being too realistic? it makes sense for that to be the demise of whimsical fantasy stories...

 

[GastlyGibus]

with the other stories... i'm starting to wonder if i'm having trouble with the endings either because the conflicts aren't clear or they're just too strong to resolve in a short story (without a deus ex machina or other cop-out, that is). if the problem is nation-wide, you can't defeat it like you'd do a singular bad guy, but my stories tend to have considerable man vs society vibes... sure, you can create a character to function as a figurehead, but realistically defeating them isn't going to change everyone who follows them.

is my achilles' heel just being too realistic? it makes sense for that to be the demise of whimsical fantasy stories...

With stories of that nature, symbolic victories are entirely possible, i.e. you don't have to completely defeat the bad guy(s) to resolve the conflict, and you can even leave it open-ended, but on a point where there's now a much better outlook for the protagonists.

Think about the original Star Wars movies (before the new ones came about) and how those ended. They haven't completely defeated the Galactic Empire. There are probably hundreds of other battleships, planets, and bases loaded with troops and resources for them to work with and still put up a fight. But the Rebellion destroyed the Death Star, they killed the Emperor and also his right-hand man and enforcer Vader. They may not have completely destroyed the Empire, but they've given them a very crushing defeat in a key battle, rallying several more people and leaders to their cause, and leaving the Empire leaderless. It's not a complete, dominating victory, but it's a symbolic victory that basically says "Look, the Empire can be fought, and we can win!"

Alternatively, you can also look at the Lord of the Rings books. Sauron is defeated and the ring destroyed, and yes, a lot of Sauron's stuff goes with him, but his armies don't just magically disappear. There's still enemies left to fight, and unlike the movies, Saruman is still alive and doing evil things. It's not so much "we've completely eliminated all the evil in Middle Earth," as much as it's "we've defeated the leader of Mordor and we've gained the upper hand, now we have a much better chance at winning!"

With stories like that, you don't have to have the protagonists completely destroy every last trace of the bad guy; simply leaving them in a position where they now stand a chance is enough of a happy ending to work. Sure, there are probably still hundreds, maybe even thousands, of "followers" of the main villain/evil force, but the symbolic victory might be enough to win more support for the good guys and give them a much needed edge.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

@canisaries it's quite easy to put a literal end to Keith's quest by having him evolve. That or similar options are always available. However, the issue is having Keith's narrative arc finish in a satisfying way. Exactly the best way to do that is sometihng I can't be sure about until I've read some Dragony, which I hope to do fairly soon. Til then!

 

[Nitro Indigo]

For instance, Explorers of Sky's ending was IMO shaping up to be a nice story about dealing with the death of a loved one, but then there's a literal deus ex machina and the credits roll before any lessons can be learned.

There's a game that had a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon ending before Pokemon Mystery Dungeon even existed, except it doesn't get undone. It's called Klonoa: Door to Phantomile.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

There's a game that had a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon ending before Pokemon Mystery Dungeon even existed, except it doesn't get undone. It's called Klonoa: Door to Phantomile.

Unfamiliar, so I found a screenshot on Wikipedia and it looks so Kirby 64:

Spoiler

I see a completed Let's Play on your channel. Kid me needs it.

EDIT: "Rejected Kirby enemies"

 

[Nitro Indigo]

"Rejected Kirby enemies"

I don't remember saying that. Also, I'll redo that let's play later this year because I'm not happy with it.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

I don't remember saying that.

Around the start of the first level, if I recall? About when you're explaining the game's premise. Also, you weren't wrong.

I've watched the first episode and did find it weird, in the "not what I was expecting" kind of sense. Last content of yours I watched was your Power Rangers body-swapping episode review, and that had much more energy. Klonoa's thirty-so seconds of silence before the intro proper was a shock. I mean, I understand not ruining the atmosphere, but as a YouTube tube clogger you're best when you're talking, particularly when going deadpan. And since you were progressing through the levels so fast, you didn't have much time to talk. The best moment was when you stopped in the tower and explained how Klonoa does cutscenes; I wished you stopped and explained more of what I'm watching (and maybe some lighthearted ribbing at the game like you did in your Power Rangers episode review).

Would absolutely watch a redo, btw. Game seems like it needs a Let's Player providing commentary, considering how much story stuff is in the manual. Plus it seems to have an interesting history, both sales-wise and with you personally.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Clogger?

I wanted to riff on the cutsenes, but when I tried to in the first episode, I found the sound of my laptop's fan too loud, and also because I didn't want to distract from the story. I'm not happy with my commentary because I sound tried and repeat things someone else has said about the game a lot. Since I made it, people have figured out that the written language is a cypher for English, and the developer has tweeted about its development history, so I want to go for a trivia-tastic chuggaaconroy-esque approach.

I have another video about Power Rangers SPD planned about those "underbaked plot points" I mentioned, but it requires me to watch some things I haven't watched yet for the sake of comparison, including something I'll probably never be able to watch legally where I live.