• A new LGBTQ+ forum is now being trialed and there have been changes made to the Support and Advice forum. To read more about these updates, click here.
  • Hey Trainers! Be sure to check out Corsola Beach, our newest section on the forums, in partnership with our friends at Corsola Cove! At the Beach, you can discuss the competitive side of the games, post your favorite Pokemon memes, and connect with other Pokemon creators!
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

@Pavell; As much as we would love for every nominated story and character to go through, it simply is not feasible at the moment, not unless every person active in the forums offered to be a judge as well. Even with that fact hanging over us, people should still give it a go because there is always the chance that their story will receive the necessary votes to move on to the next round, and that sort of ties back to what @Lysandre; it cannot just be us promoting the Awards, the community as a whole has to help out by advertising they have been nominated or, as Aether suggested, nominating and notifying other people. There are little ways around fixing these problems, but it involves contribution from everyone.
 
I'm on board with the CoTM thing. And honestly, I'm just glad we have so many strong opinions out there regarding the Workshop. For a while it seemed rather stagnant in terms of activity around here. I'm confident that the mods can run this thing smoothly and we can avoid conflicts. The age thread in the Fairground tells me we are all old enough to conduct ourselves in a respectful manner.

For this to work however, the onus will be on us to actually read other people's fics so we actually get to know some of the characters out there.
 
@AceTrainer14 I appreciate that Ace, I do, but there's no point pushing for greater enthusiasm for the Awards - and hence more nominations - if you just raise the bar when nominations get voted through. If you were to, say, state that the top three highest voted in any one category would go through perhaps it would work better ... but at some level I think you have to accept that more participation will mean more work.
 
I think that is an interesting suggestion, and one we will definitely discuss. However, I resent that more nominations mean more work: I put a lot of time into organizing the Awards, a lot more time than I probably should considering the other things I have going on outside of the forums. We struggle enough as it is to get judges in, and we are already going in with one less moderator than we had last time. With the way the Awards are set, more stories requires either more judges or expecting a lot more out of the current judges than I can possibly expect out of volunteers within the set time frame. If I did not have work, university and my own stories to work out which I am years behind in I would gladly read all the stories myself, but that is not feasible for anyone. Unless you are offering to read all the extra nominations that come through, then we are not going to be letting every story that goes through. It is a competition for a reason; people should participate because it is fun, if you go through you get at least two reviews out of it and the chance of winning, but we cannot just hand out prizes and let everyone come through. There is a line between getting everyone involved and ensuring it is still a competition.
 
This is why I don't think that the current method of voting though to judges is fit for purpose, at least with a big Awards. It requires a lot of personal effort from you and the end result in terms of competition in judging is much the same whether there's a lot of participation or not. But I've now made my point on this and I'm not going to belabour it.
 
We moderators will discuss and look over the current Awards system before the Summer lot in June, but I feel it is currently largely effective, and I am just going to have my final say in that we already put in a lot of work arranging and coordinating the Awards, and that without judges there is not a lot else we can do in the judging stages, not without giving up even more of our free time than we already do.
 
First off, as a former staff member and current awards judge, I can say that the mods work extremely hard on the Awards. Those unfamiliar with the judging process should see the amount of thought and preparation that goes into selecting who wins these awards. It's way more than just simply reading them and picking which one the judge thinks is "best." There's points and scoring for different aspects and the whole nine yards. So I kind of cringe when I hear people suggest that the staff is not putting enough work into this.

I will say though, that there were some really good stories that were nominated that did not reach the voting portion of the awards when I felt they maybe should have.

I don't know what a good solution is though. I honestly think that the current system is the best possible way to handle it.
 
From what Caitlin told me, each moderator is given a category (or two, if they're up for it) to manage. They choose which stories each of the judges in the category will read and score. One of the moderators also does the banners, but I can't remember if she said specifically who. Ace also does a category, then rounds up all of the results and posts them at the end.

It's a complicated process from what I saw, and is why I declined her offer to suggest me as a future judge in her place. I don't deal well with pressure.
 
I, uh, don't know if this is the right time/place to bring it up, but since we're discussing the awards and I never quite finished asking questions from the previous awards, here goes. If I'm divulging precious secrets or scandal (no sarcasm here; I had to weigh my thoughts considerably before submitting this post), I'm perfectly okay with having this deleted at mod discretion.

So I was first-time judging and ended up with some of the categories this time, and for those of you who don't know/haven't judged in the awards/idk maybe there's been a new system instated in the past three years or something: there are cateogories (dark/journey/crossover/etc), and there are two judges per fic, we all read each fic and post extensive scoring stuff, and then the numerical scores are added up. Regardless of who the numerical winner is, all of the judges for that category then reach a consensus on which of the fics in their category should win overall, although that consensus is almost entirely based on the numerical scores.

My problem was basically self-created, but I'm a harsh judge and found myself giving much lower scores than my fellow judges did. That tended to be okay, since I judged two fics and the negatives cancelled themselves out there, but the problem arose for the fics in my categories that I didn't judge--without having to suffer from my lower scores, fics that I didn't judge got the benefit of having two judges who gave much higher scores, while fics that I did judge automatically did worse off. I'll state up front that I'm okay with how the awards turned out and I don't think that this system had a dramatic impact on how the awards went/to whom they were awarded, but I distinctly remember feeling uncomfortable when it came to putting numbers to fics--on one hand, I wanted to inflate my scores so that the fics I was judging didn't suffer in comparison to fics I wasn't judging; on the other, there was a fairly straightforward rubric that made almost all of my scores land where they were.

tl;dr: I'm wondering if it's possible to re-configure how the scoring goes--in my opinion, a lot of it is left too much to the judges, and a judge who goes rogue on either side of the spectrum (giving scores that are too high or too low) could have a dramatic impact on a tight race.

/my two cents
also, congrats AetherX on modship and much courage to you in your suicidal noble reviewing endeavor
 
Honest question here - what do the mods do during the Awards? Some judge, there's the banners, and Ace oversees the whole thing from start to finish. What else is there?

To start, before the awards even begin the mods have to decide on what to change from the previous awards, if anything. These changes have been minimal in the past several seasons as we have settled on a consistent system, but can range from adding/taking away categories to overhauling the judging system. The mods also have to figure out a judging time frame that works for all the mods plus the judges who have to be contacted and verified that they can indeed judge for the current season. Once things seem like they're going to work out, the nomination and then voting processes take place. A lot of discussion occurs as to how many fics are going to be let through, and how many judges are needed. Also, if some categories are lacking nominations, the mods read around and fill these in.

Then comes the judging process, which is where most of the effort takes place. As AC-Prescott described, all of the mods judge. Each one takes charge of one or more categories and is in charge of keeping the two or three non-mod judges in their category in line. This requires constant hassling and discussion (but you know this bit, as you were a judge in the last awards). When someone inevitably disappears off of the face of the Earth, a mod is usually the one to step in and judge the fics and characters the missing person(s) were responsible for, but sometimes they will ask around for a friendly regular user's help. After a great deal of hair-pulling and deadline extensions, the list of final winners is compiled and verified (that is, the mods make sure that the winners actually belong in the categories they were nominated for) and harry does the banners.

Then Ace writes up the winners announcement, the mods console the losers and congratulate the winners, LT conducts the FOTM interview with the Best Story winner, and we all take a deep breath. This entire process ends up taking around a two months, if not longer. Hopefully in the future, things will be a little less crunched thanks to the new twice-yearly schedule. But being one man down next time won't help. We are very aware of problems, but any and all suggestions are welcome!

@AceTrainer14; Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I've never actually been a mod through an awards season, I've just seen the mod forums and have been a regular user judge since forever (I think I was one of the first, actually).

@kintsugi; I've encountered that same problem, and the best way to solve it is to be aggressive when it comes to the consensus stage. I've been in several situations where a fic that honestly just wasn't as good came out numerically ahead, so I and the other judges discussed and decided on which one was really the best. I think people are just afraid of going against the other judges. Don't be afraid to speak your mind! Ace has been known to pop in and mediate those discussions where necessary.

ALSO: Pavell has been patiently waiting in the Review Game for a little while now. Two weeks are up, so you can go again even if it hasn't been five turns. Despite it's name, The Long Walk isn't terribly long yet. If story length is an issue, you certainly don't want ME being next!
 
Last edited:
I guess I could do another post for Pavell's fic to help the Review Game get going.

Also AetherX I think you described it pretty well. I myself am not a mod but I do help out whenever I can (which has so far luckily been every time) and as such I have an easier time than the mods but I can definitely tell how much the mods have to work. In regards to guest judges like me it can be kind of tough because you can have someone that says they'll help and then they vanish or life takes its toll, in which case it kind of throws things out of whack. I know Ace has had to sub in for some judges at times.

And in regards to what kintsugi brought up, I do think she has a point, of course I think the people that are picked are those that are able to give a neutral review without favoring others, but the problem with the numbers is that some people will give a higher score to something when another judge gave one of the fics he was reading a lower score, so it causes a problem in regards to the quality.

I myself can't think of a good solution for this, at least it's worked so far.
 
Everything has pretty much been summed up by everyone else. It may not sound terribly complicated to some, but it is time consuming and there is a lot of work to do, a lot of relaying of information between the different people and sources and working things out to bring it all together. There is also issues that require attention during the Awards, such as last time when we had to work out issues about tying results and the whole raising the required votes thing. And then there is the stuff only I do, such as wading through multiple PM's, take all the nominations and arrange them into the necessary categories with links intact in order to have everything post ready, and then have to edit this list repeatedly for when it gets reposted, and that actually takes a lot of time. Then I have to make all the threads for the judges, compile all the information the judges need, clear out the past threads whilst saving the results, gathering together and then editing in the required chapters, promoting the Awards on Twitter, throughout the site and maintaining the User Voted categories, all whilst having to do my own reading, judging and juggling life/work/uni. So yes @Pavell, there is a lot to do and it all has to be done right otherwise we end up with a lot of mistakes.

With regards to what you said @kintsugi, I do agree with all your points here and the ones you made shortly after the Awards, and those are actually the main problems I would like to sort out before June. The main issue is that judges have different ideas of what is good or not, which cannot really be helped, but the judging scale is rather too close together and vague to actually be of any use, which we will try to fix and it is up to the judges to try and abide by that scale. But also like Aether said, you can stand up and argue for a certain story, and if you have the time you should read the other story as well for comparison's sake. Usually the one with the highest score does win because usually it is the best; we have had though one or two times when someone stood up and argued for and against certain fics and led to an agreed change.

I will just say that we have probably done this discussion to death here. I am pleased that we have had a chance to voice our views and opinions, and in a weeks time when I am on break I will spend part of that reviewing the current system and starting a discussion with the moderators, but we could probably move onto another subject as we have moved so far away now from the original discussion about the Character of the Month. Largely I will just say that the system works very efficiently for the most part and the only real errors are human related things such as differing opinions and judgments that we cannot really control. We have said more about the Awards than I ever would have chosen to disclose (not for being secretive, but so people do not attempt to interfere with any part of the process) but it is out there and I see no reason to put the toothpaste back in the tube now. Just remember that these are meant to be fun, I would only do all that stuff I listed because I enjoy arranging this and getting the chance to reward people and encourage more work, so we should just all remember to keep things nice and fun and look to the future rather than continuing to argue.
 
NOT at all saying that I think changes are needed because I believe the current system is very good, but...

If we went back to all-user voting to determine the winners, BUT had stricter requirements, would that be an option? The mods/staff would not face such a huge workload and there would be more transparency with the whole process, which judging by the opinions, is something that is wanted.

The days of Rival's Story and The Power Inside are over. Look at the stories currently active in the Workshop, there is way more balance with # of views and # of comments. No one or two stories are dominating like that. And so I think we could avoid the whole "only the popular fics ever win anything."

Again, just throwing it out there. I am honestly very happy with the current system, but it seems like others aren't.
 
I would not go back to user voting any time soon, not unless we suddenly had a very huge rise in participation that saw every single person voting, otherwise it would all end in ties and what not and would be entirely pointless. I am fine with the current system, and I believe most people are; if people read the survey results that are currently stickied in the Fairground, then our January survey showed that the only areas of disagreement were around the categories, and I am going to be basing our re-examining on those results and part of the discussion we have had recently, but I personally am not going to be looking into a massive rejigging of the awards. There were reasons why user voting was dropped, and the current system does work fine even if it is a bit tiring, but that is why we have cut it back. Judging allows for proper feedback from impartial judges who have the ability to compare stories individually and discuss them as a group and then have the opportunity to provide critical feedback which I feel is a large part of what makes the current round of Awards very special. Whilst user voting is largely a popularity contest that, while it will not see the same stories win every time, will still see a lot of stories get largely marginalized, especially in certain categories like the Non-Pokemon/Crossover section which already gets largely ignored and little participation. I may be willing to discuss something like perhaps an Audience Award, but at the moment I feel that we need to move away from the Awards discussion for a moment and give everyone a chance to pause and think over things instead of pushing for massive changes without much thought (not saying that you did not think that over, just saying that there are so many factors to consider that we cannot just latch onto the first ideas and what not).
 
Oh I see, well, that certainly explains a lot. In light of that, cutting the Awards back to twice yearly makes sense.

Oh, and FYI, I'm only after a review for one chapter! The reviewer need not read the whole story if they haven't already
 
Well that Smash Bros Direct pretty much stopped me from proofreading the latest chapter of my fic today. At any rate, it was pretty good and showed a lot of new and surprising things, including Charizard and Greninja as playable characters as a finale.
 
I'm just kind of disappointed this means no more Pokemon Trainer, he was my favorite character in Brawl. Hopefully he'll show up with some different Pokemon though.
 
Back
Top Bottom