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Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

I actually find girl characters difficult to write for. Up until AC-Prescott and I started taking Storm Island seriously, Andrea was a typical dumb-girl stereotype, being afraid of bugs, being a fashionista, being "absurdly attractive and beautiful" (actual quote from my first ever incarnation of the story), and having a crippling attraction to all of the boys she met. AC-Prescott said that simply wouldn't do and began to recraft the character into something much better and believable, thankfully.

Even as I dived into my Star Trek story, Commander Blackmoore started walking into those pitfalls as I planned out how to develop the characters of the course of the "first season". Frustration at the fact that I couldn't write a good development story for her (and for Eliza, another of the characters) is what doomed that one.

I mean even now, having learned from my past mistakes, I still find myself writing those kinds of characters when I try out new story ideas. I'm about ready to give up at this point.
 
Except that's not what we were saying at all? We're not talking about "strong female characters," we're talking about good characters who happen to be female. And not only is there is a big difference between the two, it is a really important thing to be discussed. Like it or not, it IS a legitimate issue, not just people choosing to see it as one because they're not a straight white male. Just "writing what you're comfortable with" is nothing but an excuse to not consider how being a member of an under-represented demographic actually affects people, and is ALSO a one-way ticket to stagnating as a writer.

People are people, no matter what. No one is disputing this fact. Neither is anyone saying that people of any race, gender, or orientation must have certain personality traits. I, at least, am trying to say that these factors in a character are still important and need to be considered, not that they should define the character. Yes, we'd all like to live in a utopia where those factors aren't a major part of society, but even if that were the case, they would still help to shape and define the characters because it's part of who they are, and to just ignore that is not only really insensitive, but also just bad characterization. Part of making believable characters is making varied characters, and that includes ones of different ethnicities and orientations. The fact that straight white male is considered a kind of default for writing is a sign that anyone who is not in that demographic is "different" enough to be considered abnormal.

We need people writing good female characters. We need people learning how to write good queer characters. We need people learning how to write good characters of non-white ethnicities. Because then we can not only grow as people and as writers, but we can help grow as a society as well.
I agree with every word of this. I am a white cis male, so I am seen as basically the "default" in media, including literature. People like me are represented disproportionately in all forms of media at the expense of those who are not like me. The genre I write in, fantasy, is especially guilty of being very white-and-male centric, and is worse off for it. As a result, I have made a point of being as inclusive and diverse as I can in my writing - of my six current POV characters, only one is white, and most characters I've introduced are not white either. Many of them aren't even straight, and several possess disorders or mental illnesses. As a white cis male, writing these sorts of characters can be challenging, because I do not share some of those attributes, and so seeing the world through their eyes and analyzing how those attributes contribute to their personalities and characters does not come naturally. However, contributing even in some small way to greater diversity in literature is important, and so it's a challenge I gladly take on.
 
Except that's not what we were saying at all? We're not talking about "strong female characters," we're talking about good characters who happen to be female. And not only is there is a big difference between the two, it is a really important thing to be discussed. Like it or not, it IS a legitimate issue, not just people choosing to see it as one because they're not a straight white male. Just "writing what you're comfortable with" is nothing but an excuse to not consider how being a member of an under-represented demographic actually affects people, and is ALSO a one-way ticket to stagnating as a writer.

People are people, no matter what. No one is disputing this fact. Neither is anyone saying that people of any race, gender, or orientation must have certain personality traits. I, at least, am trying to say that these factors in a character are still important and need to be considered, not that they should define the character. Yes, we'd all like to live in a utopia where those factors aren't a major part of society, but even if that were the case, they would still help to shape and define the characters because it's part of who they are, and to just ignore that is not only really insensitive, but also just bad characterization. Part of making believable characters is making varied characters, and that includes ones of different ethnicities and orientations. The fact that straight white male is considered a kind of default for writing is a sign that anyone who is not in that demographic is "different" enough to be considered abnormal.

We need people writing good female characters. We need people learning how to write good queer characters. We need people learning how to write good characters of non-white ethnicities. Because then we can not only grow as people and as writers, but we can help grow as a society as well.

My rant was aimed at that flow chart that had been shared, which, if you had looked at it, over simplified the path to making a 'strong female character' by saying essentially that if you don't follow certain guidelines, your female character is not going to be strong, when half of the characters that were not cast in the 'strong female character' strain probably are a lot stronger than many characters that are seen as strong (ie people that think Katniss Everdeen is a strong character are unfortunately mistaken).

I agree that we need good female characters, but my point was that many people get too worked up over it and become bogged down by fears that their character will be interpreted incorrectly that that makes them stall as a writer; this is about the fifth time in only recent months that this issue has been discussed here, and people are perhaps discussing the issue more and worrying about it than trying to work on it. I said that they were not comfortable with it then to not write them as people should not be forced to write characters that they can not possibly write correctly, only to then end up being torn down by people on the internet who see it as their duty to harass every story that is not perfect; that will not help people grow as a writer but will instead diminish their confidence and willingness to write, as it is so completely rare to actually get a review that would highlight the issue calmly and provide proper feedback. If we want people to grow as writers, than we should be there waiting to provide feedback to those that need it instead of arguing about the issue, as this does not really help anybody.
 
I suppose I might as well weigh in on this now I've started it. The flowchart really isn't very helpful for actually writing - I posted it as a curio, really. I think the issue is overstated, as Ace has mentioned. I'm not sure what "strong female character" means, to be honest. Is it strong characterisation (I.e: a believable, rounded character), or "strong" as in assertive? Because really, I don't see assertive girls in fiction as necessarily desirable. The needs of the story should come first, and if the story calls for an indolent, whiny valley girl who tries to use sex as a bargaining chip (Don't you all want to read about that character now?), then that's what the character should be.

I mean, at the end of the day this is fiction we're talking about. Unless the point of the story is to make a point (Har har) then really you shouldn't be fretting too much about how many black guys or strong women (Nope, still not sure what that means) you have in the narrative

I actually find girl characters difficult to write for. Up until AC-Prescott and I started taking Storm Island seriously, Andrea was a typical dumb-girl stereotype, being afraid of bugs, being a fashionista, being "absurdly attractive and beautiful" (actual quote from my first ever incarnation of the story), and having a crippling attraction to all of the boys she met. AC-Prescott said that simply wouldn't do and began to recraft the character into something much better and believable, thankfully.

I don't believe you! That kinda reminds me of something Terry Pratchett wrote once - I seem to recall that he said he has trouble writing soft (His words) female characters. That seems true enough to me (Susan, Granny Weatherwax, Tiffany Aching). As for myself, the hardest part of writing Eve is her internal monologue. No, wait, it's her relationship with her family. Whatever. Writing in a girl's head is hard
 
I think, like I said before, this issue has been discussed to death here and we probably should not keep bringing it up and descending into massive arguments about it :p I think if someone would like to write an Academy Lesson on perhaps writing female characters, then we could move all discussion to there; we do not have a lesson for this month and I have been a tad too busy to go hunting for one.
 
Or maybe it's being discussed because it's an actual important thing that people feel strongly about and want to talk about. I don't see any "massive arguments," just discussion.

But clearly I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about.
 
Actually no, I agree with @Feliciano; and her point. I mean it' s a subject that keeps being brought up because it's an important subject in writing, plus it's not like we're really jumping into a big discussions or argument where we're screaming next to each other's ears, I mean if that were to happen then yeah we should stop but at this point we're just talking about common subject that we all agree is important in writing.

Though I wouldn't mind doing an article about that :p
 
Tbh, I'm on board with Feliciano/assorted others as well--I personally really enjoyed reading through the thread and seeing people's perspectives, and I wouldn't call it arguing so much as debate (except it's kind of a debate where everyone is on a single ambiguous side and no one's really taken a drastically opposite viewpoint yet, in the sense of OMG WIMMEN INTO THE KITCHEN AND LOVE INTERESTS ONLY). At the very least, there's activity in this thread, which is nice to see. If Ace is too worried about cluttering up this thread/antagonizing debate, perhaps we could make a new thread for the women discussion (or revive one of the fifty other ones; idk)?

In other news, I just returned from the mystical land of forced roadtrips where the motels are super shifty and the internet is sixteen cents a minute, but family bonding and stuff. Apologies to everyone I was supposed to review post-awards; I'll be getting those up today/now.
 
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Welcome back! I've missed your reviewing, @kintsugi. You don't let me get away with much ;)

Speaking of gender in writing, looking at the apparent demographics of the Fairground is quite interesting. It seems that on FF.net at least, most fanfic writers are girls (Out of respect for people's sanity, no linky to the Tv Tropes page) and most of the stories are essentially shippy fics. Here it looks like there's no particular majority and no particular prevailing sub-genre that I can see.

What does everyone else think?
 
I also don't see a problem with this discussion. Nobody's at each others' throats and we all seem to be benefiting from it. I personally have a bit of an issue with writing girl characters. Not so much about making them "strong" (two awards for punchy-stabby action girl are proof of that) but about making them relatable. Girls are ultimately different than guys, and I always worry that I'm portraying my female characters poorly. At least I won't really have to worry about that until I finally sit down to write Criss's backstory in full from her point of view, and fortunately I don't see that happening for a while.

@kintsugi; Lack of internet aside, I hope you enjoyed your road trip. I went on a ton of family road trips around the country growing up and they were amazing.

Speaking of gender in writing, looking at the apparent demographics of the Fairground is quite interesting. It seems that on FF.net at least, most fanfic writers are girls (Out of respect for people's sanity, no linky to the Tv Tropes page) and most of the stories are essentially shippy fics. Here it looks like there's no particular majority and no particular prevailing sub-genre that I can see.

What does everyone else think?

I was thinking about this the other day. This may be the only place on the internet with a fairly even M/F ratio. That and the no dominant sub-genre thing is why I love this community so much. It's so different from what you'd expect from fan fiction.

And thanks for not linking the TV Tropes page, I'm planning on being productive today xD
 
I was not saying "oooh, stop talking about it everyone!!!", I was saying that it would be best to move the subject to a place where it can be more freely, openly and continually discussed, rather than remain here in the General Chat which is meant to be for General Chatting :p Like kintsugi said, we do have quite a lot of threads about writing female characters in the Written Word, and more free discussion could be housed there instead of dominating a thread that is not really meant for debate, whether friendly or intense. @Flaze, if you do want to write an article on it I would appreciate it.
 
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The Pokemon fanfic community is saturated in journey fics (and I'm guilty of contributing to that), so the variety of genres Bulbagarden offers has always appealed to me.
 
Agreed. I am guilty of the journey fic saturation as well. It's a fun sort of fic to writing IMO though. Most writers, I think, like he idea of creating their own take on the typical journey style story that Pokemon always is, regardless of medium. Games, anime, manga, etc.
 
And me. So far The Long Walk is a fairly conventional journeyfic, though I think I've avoided most of the usual journeyfic clichés (My characters aren't teens, neither of them are from the sleepy starting town, neither want to be the very best etc)
 
I think fanfiction is a good way for beginning writers to develop, and journey fics are especially so for beginning writers who like Pokemon. There's a basic formula already present to use, so the writer can focus on playing with it in interesting ways and developing characterization.
 
I think fanfiction is a good way for beginning writers to develop, and journey fics are especially so for beginning writers who like Pokemon. There's a basic formula already present to use, so the writer can focus on playing with it in interesting ways and developing characterization.

That's exactly how I feel as well.

While creating original works is ultimately the most rewarding experience in writing, you should definitely practice first before attempting to tackle the challenge. It always make me mad when people look down on Fan-fiction because "there's no point" or something equally stupid. Writing fan-fiction is good practice for basic story-telling, prose, characterization and the like. Writing anything is good for practice, whether it's a fan-fiction, a dissertation, a research paper, or what-have-you.

I think about it this way. When you learn to play piano, you don't immediately start trying to create original works and musical compositions. You play already-written pieces first. You play familiar pieces to acquaint yourself with the instrument, the placing of the keys, the positioning of your hands, etc... Then, once you've got the basics down, you can start to experiment with original creations. Of course, even then, you'll find yourself going back to already-written musical arrangements to practice, or maybe just because you really like the piece. The same goes for writing.

As well as seasoned writers to sharpen their skills or just practice bending the rules in a "safe" setting

This too. Creating an original novel or piece of writing is challenging. You need to define what kind of world it is, whether it's real or fictional; establish the boundaries of the world, both the physical and meta-physical; create a history for the world, how it came to be, what it's been through, and then finally, once you've done all that, you can start actually writing. It's a lot of work, and to ask a beginner to do all of that is ludicrous. You don't ask a novice film-maker to direct a 2-hour blockbuster movie on their first try. Gotta start with the basics.

On a completely unrelated note, am I the only one here who hasn't written a journey fic? xD
 
Even as children, kids will often play make-believe based on their favorite shows or characters. I see fanfiction as basically a development from that, and often a necessary step towards fully original work, so I don't like it when people call it a bad practice or unnecessary.
 
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