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Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

There is no way of solving the power problem so long as there is a) the same protagonist and b) a franchise anime that is expected to never end.

Whether you hit the reset button or not, you're going to run into the same problem. There's only so much development you can do with any one trainer - only so many pokémon to evolve, only so clever to get tactically, and only so many opponents to beat. So eventually it's going to mean winning and losing the same battles, just with new regional pokémon again and again. That's a problem that's not unique to twerpy Ash. If you replaced twerpy Ash with twerpy Alain, that problem would still be there

You have to watch the anime in much the same way as you would watch a cartoon, which I maintain is appropriate, given that the target audience isn't older teenagers and twenty-somethings.
 
Personally, the main issue I have with the anime is the fact that Ash isn't allowed to age and develop as a character. The only time he ever had any character development was way back in the original series, when he first started out as a Pokémon trainer. Quite frankly, Ash's companions both past and present (and no doubt future ones as well) had more development and interesting personalities with few exceptions.

Ash is a shounen hero, there's no denying that. Yet other shounen heroes have gotten character development as their stories went on. Shouldn't he be no different than the rest?
 
I don't watch enough long-running shounen to firmly comment ... so I'll just say that I'm sceptical that character development in an endless story is much different to the ol' power levels. If the anime were prepared to be a more mature show, there'd be a bit more scope, I think. I recall that literally once the question was raised as to what he would actually do after he became a Master, and that thought lasted all of two seconds. I doubt that kind of thinking would go over well with the target demographic, though. I've seen more than one person lambast Gary for "wussing out" by deciding that he'd rather be a researcher than a trainer, by way of example

I think in XY there's an attempt at striking a balance. In most of the episodes I saw, Ash was starting with new pokémon but not so tactically. It's kind of a double-edged sword, because combined with his base personality it comes across as a lot of smug clichés (The Cyllage Gym Battle stands out there as especially bad for this).

Of course, we can all consider this an object lesson for our own stories - plan! Because trying to retcon a character to fit a role you never designed them for ends up as awkward
 
It is really funny that the Pokemon Anime became the best negative example of successful story-writing and storytelling. It is filled with all the adverse writing trope that will damage the reputation of the entire show and franchise.
 
I wouldn't even call it entirely negative though. Every season is some kids' first, so while we have the benefit of 20 years of episodes to look back on, we do have to remember that we're really not the target audience. Just because we learned the same lessons first doesn't mean the kids just starting their journeys shouldn't get them. Beyond that, Ash and his image is marketable, just like Pikachu - that's why we don't just follow a new protag through each new region, and why it's the companions that are swapped out.
 
I wouldn't even call it entirely negative though. Every season is some kids' first, so while we have the benefit of 20 years of episodes to look back on, we do have to remember that we're really not the target audience. Just because we learned the same lessons first doesn't mean the kids just starting their journeys shouldn't get them. Beyond that, Ash and his image is marketable, just like Pikachu - that's why we don't just follow a new protag through each new region, and why it's the companions that are swapped out.

Well...you do have a point, I think the anime wouldn't be as relevant now if it had switched protagonists.
 
So... anyone else notice Misheard Whisper has vanished?
There was a bit of bother around a review he gave and he seems to be have taken some time off. Hopefully he comes back soon though, but it's really up to him.

Well...you do have a point, I think the anime wouldn't be as relevant now if it had switched protagonists.
Just look at Digimon and Yu-Gi-Oh - they kept changing protagonists and it's mainstream appeal in Western culture is pretty much non-existent.
 
I think Pav has it right in saying that we should look at it as more of a kid's cartoon and less of an anime. There are hugely different standards. Spongebob hasn't seen a lot of character development either.
 
You can't really compare Pokemon and Spongebob though, or most modern Western cartoons. Shows like Spongebob have a ton of innuendo and adult humour in them, while Pokemon is fairly innocent 90% of the time. There are plenty of examples of cartoons embracing and adding winks for their older audience, while Pokemon continues to keep as G as possible. I mean, it quite clearly works for them (and they did at least try to make things more serious and serialised with DP/early BW), but there is precedent for them to try and be a bit more inventive if they wanted to.
 
Oh I disagree, I think in terms of the target audience Pokémon is very comparable to a modern western cartoon. Although it's probably more comparable to something like Ben 10, I imagine (Never seen that). The main difference as I see it is that Pokémon is expected to have some sort of ongoing story, which most western cartoons don't
 
I've seen so much anime/asian's cartoons that have seasons of airtime with characters that never grow old even though they keep repeating seasonal events like valentine, Christmas, etc. They even pointed event that happen last year as last year yet they are still on same grade/never age.

So... they are all vampires that's just how animations/cartoon/fiction can work. They not always need to have any explanation/logic behind it. As long as the show have good rating, they can keep go on.

Doraemon can be a perfect example for it... XD
 
Do you want to expand on that argument? Because if you are comparing it to Ben 10, I'm pretty sure that had overarching storylines to it - I may be wrong, but I got the impression when I watched a few episodes while looking after a young cousin. I am saying that in the current TV landscape, that seems pretty dominated by the likes of Regular Show, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, Phineas and Ferb for a while, Pokemon is probably one of the only animated shows to have neither overarching storylines or attempts at a more whimsical, zany sense of humour. To be fair, it has probably worked for them - Digimon and Yu-Gi-Oh always had huge storylines, but you don't see any of them paying for superbowl ads - but I don't think Pokemon really has many contemporaries at the moment.

You know, I'd be interested to know just how much of the audience of Pokemon these days is actually small children/new fans. I imagine that after 20 years it's audience is closer to that of Doctor Who in the eighties - fans who have grown up with the series being the more dominant force. I read once that the sales for X/Y or one of the more recent games was predominantly men in their twenties
 
Do you want to expand on that argument? Because if you are comparing it to Ben 10, I'm pretty sure that had overarching storylines to it - I may be wrong, but I got the impression when I watched a few episodes while looking after a young cousin. I am saying that in the current TV landscape, that seems pretty dominated by the likes of Regular Show, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, Phineas and Ferb for a while, Pokemon is probably one of the only animated shows to have neither overarching storylines or attempts at a more whimsical, zany sense of humour. To be fair, it has probably worked for them - Digimon and Yu-Gi-Oh always had huge storylines, but you don't see any of them paying for superbowl ads - but I don't think Pokemon really has many contemporaries at the moment.

You know, I'd be interested to know just how much of the audience of Pokemon these days is actually small children/new fans. I imagine that after 20 years it's audience is closer to that of Doctor Who in the eighties - fans who have grown up with the series being the more dominant force. I read once that the sales for X/Y or one of the more recent games was predominantly men in their twenties

I could well be wrong on Ben 10 specifically. From what I know, that show seems to me to be the best comparison in terms of the content and target audience. In terms of the size of the brand, then yes indeed, there really isn't much in the way of decent comparisons.

I think you're right that it's good to think twice about what the actual anime audience is. I'll still maintain that it's designed to be a kid's show - however, in terms of who watches it around the world, well, I wouldn't be so confident as to guess. I think that forum participation gives a skewed view of the fandom for the anime. The assumption is often made that those commenting on the anime are online are representative of the viewership as a whole, which I don't think is an assumption one can sensibly make. How many ten-year olds are going to follow blogs and participate in long discussions over the characterisation of Misty? As far as the Western (I hate that term, so nebulous) audience is concerned, I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be dominated by the older teens and twenty-somethings
 
I think you're right that it's good to think twice about what the actual anime audience is. I'll still maintain that it's designed to be a kid's show - however, in terms of who watches it around the world, well, I wouldn't be so confident as to guess. I think that forum participation gives a skewed view of the fandom for the anime. The assumption is often made that those commenting on the anime are online are representative of the viewership as a whole, which I don't think is an assumption one can sensibly make. How many ten-year olds are going to follow blogs and participate in long discussions over the characterisation of Misty? As far as the Western (I hate that term, so nebulous) audience is concerned, I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be dominated by the older teens and twenty-somethings
I think we also need to remember that the Japanese audience probably comes first. If it's quite big with kids there then I imagine they wouldn't really be fussed if the only Americans watching were middle aged men perving on what short-skirted companion Ash is with this time. It's probably like Doctor Who, which I feel is still marketed and viewed as a family show in England, but it's international audience is a lot higher. Peter Capaldi came to NZ last year for an event, and there were some kids but about 90% of it was teenagers +.
 
Heart of Crystal is pretty well dead, but Arceus preserve me, I kind of want to start up another nuzlocke fic. I have no idea what region to do, though. I know Kanto very well, but Kanto is really overdone and that could come around to bite me in the ass since I'd get so far ahead of myself in the game that I wouldn't be able to keep up with the writing. I already tried Johto and that died when I couldn't figure out how to make Whitney's battle interesting, even though I think I had some good ideas and the story has a lot to go off of. Hoenn is honestly kind of dull to me, and while Sinnoh could be a lot of fun since it has a relatively strong story like Johto without the length of two regions, but it starts off incredibly slowly. Unova has an excellent story that I'd love to play around with, but comics like Myths of Unova have already done a great job with it, plus it would kind of obligate me to do a sequel with B2W2. I really enjoy Kalos, but the pacing in the game itself is all kinds of out of whack and I worry that it would affect the pace of the fic as well.
 
I have that issue sometimes with looking at the regions and wondering how to make them interesting. I agree about Hoenn: there is kind of too much to that region that it's hard to make anything particularly stand out. It is missing the natural flow that basically every other region has (can't speak for Kalos since I haven't played). Here's a town in a volcano, and one on an island, and one with a giant waterfall, and one in trees. It really is too much
 
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