Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

[GastlyGibus]

クリスタル raised an interesting point though about visuals. I do struggle, especially with big battle scenes, around how much to put in. I regularly find myself having to tone down what I am planning because when it comes to writing it's all going to be utter gibberish. I imagine things being quite visual since the anime is very visual, but my imagination far outpaces realism.

I find that when engaging visuals in writing, I tend to use the smallest amount necessary to leave it up to the imagination of the readers. Unless it's absolutely necessary to the plot, I feel like describing everything in visceral detail just bores people and doesn't let them use their imagination. A lot of the old books I read as a child used to hardly ever use description, and as a result, I had to fill in the blanks. I had my own ideas of what the characters look like, what the world looked like, etc...

I had a friend who was a pretty decent writer, but he always had to describe everything. One time he literally ended up writing like four paragraphs describing the architecture of a building, and I remember thinking "Okay... what does this have to do with anything?"

I don't know, that's just my personal preference, I suppose. Then again, I have an issue when I actually have to describe things, because I don't do it very often at all. Especially battle scenes, as you mentioned. One can only write "she swung her sword" so many different ways before it becomes repetitive.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Therefore similarly, when it comes to writing textual story of Pokemon, one shouldn't try to write it like an novel to be read by older audience, but rather, more like a children story book.

I disagree, for one simple reason. Invention is, ironically, the soul of fanfiction. If the details aren't there, as fanfiction authors, we can make them up with gusto. I'll agree that the source material, whether it's the manga, games or anime, is very much aimed at being child friendly. There are certain aspects of that which are difficult to really write in a mature fashion - the multifarious evil teams are the obvious example there. And it's a time-honoured tradition to age up the average journeyman trainer to play down the issue of pre-teens off on their own unsupervised adventure.

I would be hesitant to really equate light-hearted with child-friendly, though. Often they do go hand in hand, but not automatically. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is one of the greats of children's literature, and decidedly not light-hearted. The same goes of The Hobbit. In animation, you can also point to Spirited Away as an example of a children's story that's far from cheerful.

I thinking generally I have problems with trying to personalise the Pokemon and make them more interesting than just animal-soldiers to fight the battles

It's a tough one, because once you start to consistently give the pokémon much personality at all, the cast promptly balloons incredibly. I've studiously avoided the sapient pokémon trope, and still I struggle to find space to really establish distinct personalities among seven pokémon, let alone twelve

I find that when engaging visuals in writing, I tend to use the smallest amount necessary to leave it up to the imagination of the readers

Funny you should say that. My action scene guru, so to speak, is Dan Abnett - a giant in the Warhammer 40K fandom, and rather consistently overrated, I have to say. However, he is a master at writing really crunchy, visual, visceral battles, whether the combatants are dog-soldiers in a trench or mecha-pilots. Anyway, when I studied his writing I noticed that on the whole he uses few words of description. A lot of it is conveyed using a few very evocative adjectives in key places, and then the reader tends to fill in the gaps from there

 

[CrystaI]

I don't read any more children literature after middle of high school, and I wasn't studied in UK, so I don't have a clue of those English literature nor Western cartoons you talked about. But according to my memories of those ones I had read in childhood, most children literature gave me the impression as I mentioned above. Though to be fair, I do admit there is a few selected ones that are not overall light-hearted and a not-so-happy (yet not tragic) ending, but that is more of an exception then being the norm. One thing for sure, is that children literature is definitely simple. What I meant by simple, is that it uses mostly easy-to-understand vocabulary that can be understand by most general, without any purple prose nor technical terminologies, nor long exposition going deep into the background, focus mostly on the current event. As I had said before, REGARDLESS OF QUALITY OF STORY QUALITY, meaning the story plot itself may still be good even when the wording is simple.

I do think the official Pokemon franchise is by overall light-hearted and children-friendly, additionally being simple (both the overall usage of wordings and setting itself) without much detail set in stone. So if one wanted to write a Pokemon fic that feels like it resembles the canonical Pokemon franchise, you need to align your writing style to the simpleness and children-friendliness of the canon.

BUT HOWEVER!!! I shall rephrase this again where I said previously in some other thread before. Fanfic is not canon! Therefore it is the liberty of the fanfic author to break the mold and shape your own interpretation.

I could care less does my own fic "feels like a Pokemon fic" that resembles the canonical atmosphere of the franchise or not. That is not the thing I wanted to do in my work anyway. And without that unseen restriction, I felt to have a lot more creativity freedom that allows me to come up with many innovative idea that the canon franchise had never done before. (Including the ones that are so broken that a "normal" Pokemon fans will obviously bash at it just by posting it up)

 

[Flaze]

To be honest I don't see why the evil teams are so difficult to deal with? I mean yeah the games, anime and manga portray them as cartoonishly evil or just plain old cliche but...that doesn't mean you have to. This is fanfiction, and it's Pokemon, a franchise that opens itself to other's own interpretation, you can do an evil team that is more grounded and realistic or isn't that evil, there are some teams whose goals and ideals aren't necessarily evil and in a more grounded light can explore some pretty interesting themes.

 

[Lugion]

Honestly I've had a hard time meshing Team Millennium with the tone and overall setting of the newer Stainless Steel.

 

[Beth Pavell]

With the canonical evil teams at least, it's harder to deal with them in a mature setting. I think Team Plasma is the worst offender for this. The stated goal of the team sounds alright, but there's no substance to back it up. Then you have the standard really silly costume (Although, ironically the BW2 get-up looks almost practical), a bunch of leaders that don't seem to actually do anything, and a finale as bonkers as it comes. I mean, a castle popping out of the ground like a daffodil?

If I were to try and age all this up I'd probably start with laying some proper groundwork for the Plasma cause by showing how it can have some basis to it. I'd scrap the BW outfit and go entirely for the BW2 uniform. I have no idea what I'd do with the Sages. I can't figure out what's supposed to be so sage about them. Even so, that still leaves us stuck with a pop-up castle and a silly endgame for Ghetsis. I suppose he could believe that he could rule the region just by waving around a powerful pokémon

 

[AceTrainer14]

We are actually going to do a lesson on Villains at some point since we had to cancel Best Antagonist last time. I think the teams in the games are silly, but that's because they still have to be fairly G-friendly. I think if you look at any villain in a G-rated movie, and most of them the time they are extreme caricatures that mix outlandishly evil with ridiculous slapstick. I think you have to decide the tone of your story and find a way to make the villains work for you. If you are doing a really dark fic, you have more free reign to do whatever you want.

For example, with Team Magma/Aqua, I'm going to rework it more into an environmentalist issue: The Magma Corporation is a huge building/development company in Hoenn (think Drumpf), while Team Aqua (not final name) will be a sort of cross between PETA and Anonymous, and they are competing against each other really to unleash Groudon and Kyogre respectively for their further goals. When you look at it broadly, it is still a bit silly that they will be doing this, but you also have to take into account that this is the world they live in. There are no nuclear bombs or WMD they can use to fight their war: they fight their wars using giant monsters. The entire series is built on fighting with large monsters, so you really have to just embrace it

 

[Flaze]

@Beth Pavell Are you telling me you can't just blow stuff up forever and ever with an uber god? :O

 

[AetherX]

What was even with Plasma's aesthetic? Their goal was to liberate Pokemon, which is cool. But that doesn't explain the knight getup. Is it because they're on a "crusade" or something? And why choose "Plasma" as their name? At least Team Rocket had a real world inspiration for their silly name.

The hardest part of adapting Pokemon for me is all of the little things that make no sense but are so ingrained in canon and pretty much every iteration of fanfiction that everyone makes assumptions about them. Like the concept of journeys. Who funds them? Who organizes and regulates them? What are the regulations? Do these kids to school before leaving or after coming back or both? And other stuff too. Why are there so few/no roads, highways, or airports? Why does no one live in or even mention the areas immediately outside of any given region (like north of Kanto and Johto)? Why do so few people nickname their Pokemon (I've ranted on this already)? Why does the Pokemon League have so much apparent influence over the government? Nevermind the police, where is the SDF/National Guard/equivalent in the midst of all of the terrorist attacks in this action story? I could go on.

For example, with Team Magma/Aqua, I'm going to rework it more into an environmentalist issue: The Magma Corporation is a huge building/development company in Hoenn (think Drumpf), while Team Aqua (not final name) will be a sort of cross between PETA and Anonymous, and they are competing against each other really to unleash Groudon and Kyogre respectively for their further goals.

This is literally the exact same thing I'm going to do. Already came up with this idea completely separately I'm calling them "The Aqua Foundation" btw

 

[Flaze]

In the world of my fic and the journey fics that I was originally going to do I kind of went around the whole issue of the journeys by just saying that kids went on journeys either during summer break or that they received materials online that they had to study and once they were done with their journey if they wanted to return they had to pass a test, or they could drop out.

So maybe something like that? I know it's not perfect but at least it's a kind of way to explain it. As for Team Plasma, I really have no idea. The only idea I have is that maybe they had knight outfits cause that's what N liked when he was leader, like it's what he saw them as.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Oh now you've done it. I'm going to have to try and answer some of those.

Journeys: It's pretty difficult to square the journey with education, I'll admit. The way I would try and explain it, if the trainer is under 18 they could defer a year of schooling while they undertake the journey. I could see some of the costs of being a trainer subsidised by the League itself, since the training journey is really the source of new talent. Remember that Poké Gelt idea I used in The Long Walk? Where Gym victories yield credit that can be spent on the journey itself.

The League: I've never been a fan of the League = government trope common to fanfic. I don't see a modern society putting up with sportsmen being political leaders, for a start. And well, you know my thoughts on law enforcement in the pokémon world. Some twit in a costume might conceivably be adequate for dealing with the paramilitary evil team, but where are the thief-takers? Who's investigating fraud, locking up thugs, serving warrants?

Fanon has a lot to answer for, I think. In the various canons a lot simply isn't explained and can be cheerfully invented - like what's to the north of Kanto and Johto, for example. There's plenty which is just taken as written, though, even though it's nowhere in the canon. It's pretty damn difficult to do anything with Silver and Team Rocket without the whole "Giovanni's son" shtick. Is that ever actually spelled out in the games, anyway?

 

[Persephone]

The Silver thing is confirmed in the game-verse. It was initially only suggested by a one-off line on the Sevii Isle Rocket Base in FRLG. The Celebi event in HGSS confirmed it.

 

[AceTrainer14]

What was even with Plasma's aesthetic? Their goal was to liberate Pokemon, which is cool. But that doesn't explain the knight getup. Is it because they're on a "crusade" or something? And why choose "Plasma" as their name? At least Team Rocket had a real world inspiration for their silly name.

Plasma comes from the fact fire and lightning (ie Reshiram and Zekrom) combined make plasma. I think the whole knight-get up is to do with the fact the backstory of Unova is grounded in warring kings - knights served for kings? Maybe they'd just watched too much Game of Thrones while developing (was that even out then?)

This is literally the exact same thing I'm going to do. Already came up with this idea completely separately I'm calling them "The Aqua Foundation" btw

I feel like we are too perfect for each other. If we met in real life I think it would be love <3

I think all these questions are why Pokemon is probably the perfect thing to write fan-fic about. There is so much vagueness to it all and there are so many ways to interpret it. When I was trying to think about Pokemon's appeal when I did that article, I think this is one of the reasons: the games are so flawed in story and plot that it kind of encourages you to create your own world, whereas most other games or franchises actually have answers.

I don't see a modern society putting up with sportsmen being political leaders, for a start.

There is a modern society that is pretty damn close to electing a racist, homophobic, misogynist, fraudulent billionaire as their President. Sports leaders/celebrities can have a lot of influence - though my view may be skewered since I come from New Zealand and anyone good at sport here is treated like a diety. And while I am not a fan of sports heroes, I can think of a few famous people who I'd rather vote for than 80% of the options currently on the table in basically any Western society and would probably do a much better job.

I view the whole 'League having a lot of influence' is actually quite fair. Here in New Zealand, our whole country basically stops when there is a huge event on like the Rugby World Cup - we had law changes last year to make it easier for people to go see it. You have things like the Superbowl or the Melbourne Cup that bring their countries practically to a halt. I think in a world where people live surrounded by fire-breathing monsters, combining that with sports as a spectacle is not a wholly ridiculous idea.

 

[Beth Pavell]

There's a long way between between sports tournaments being a big national event and active sportsmen being in office. As an accepted rule, mind, rather than on occasion a retired sportsman moving into politics. It's the kind of thing I could buy in a medieval setting, where trainers are warriors rather than sportsmen. That has plenty of precedent - the average European king had to be a great warrior because waging war effectively was one of his principle duties

 

[Life]

Attempting to answer these partly for my own benefit rather then to just be annoying all together. d:

Like the concept of journeys. Who funds them? Who organizes and regulates them? What are the regulations?

I've always imagined that journeys are rather cheap; all you really need are the essentials, which if we use real world prices might be around 1,000-3,000 US dollars depending on how much equipment you want. The only unavoidable, constant reocurring expense is food, which can be dealt with in two ways; hunted (depending on what type of world you're writing in) or bought with money made while traveling (from trainer battles, etc., if game logic applies).

In my world, regulations are different for each "trainer rank" - a system that designates the level of trainers, mostly by experience, notoriety, and knowledge. Higher ranks have more privileges (access to certain facilities, less restrictive rules, etc.) then lower ranks.

Do these kids to school before leaving or after coming back or both?

It varies per region, but in the story I'm working on now, trainers have to be 16 to get their trainer's liscence and by that time should have enough general knowledge to function and live on their own. (It's also the age to drop out of schooling) If they make a successful career out of being a trainer, it's likely they won't have to go back to school, or they may get a job working with pokemon that didn't require a degree. Of course, it's also possible that they get a job in the service/trade industry that doesn't require a degree.

If they do plan to attend university/college, however, then they can either go back to school or enroll in online courses.

And other stuff too. Why are there so few/no roads, highways, or airports? Why does no one live in or even mention the areas immediately outside of any given region (like north of Kanto and Johto)?

Yeah, that kind of stuff annoys me as well. I've tried combatting the first one with having them actually show up at times, but since most trainers decide to travel through less ubran areas they simply don't show up as often. Airports aren't too popular due to the small size of regions, but do exist in large cities that could hold such a thing.

In the big universe my world is in, I plan on making each area of the globe a region, but on a different scale, of course. (Otherwise Unova would be super small.) But yeah, definitely annoying when world-building isn't so prevalent in stories, or the entire world is just pokemon-centered.

Why do so few people nickname their Pokemon (I've ranted on this already)? Why does the Pokemon League have so much apparent influence over the government? Nevermind the police, where is the SDF/National Guard/equivalent in the midst of all of the terrorist attacks in this action story? I could go on.

Precisely; it's essentially getting a dog and naming it "dog" - it just sounds stupid. Agree with the rest of the points as well; it all comes down to world-building which I think a lot of fan fiction authors tend to forget about.

Personally I tend to think of the League as a business organization rather than any sort of governing body. They have some political influence due to how big of a sphere they maintain and how many people are effected by what falls under their umbrella, but at the end of the day the most they can do is change rules regarding things that mainly effect trainers and pokemon-related facilities and events.


Well, that was longer than I expected. Reminds me I actually need to pick back up on my story sometime, and catch up with what's going on around here. >_>

 

[Lugion]

I give trainers on journeys sponsors to help with the costs of their journey. Of course, they have to prove themselves worthy of sponsorship in the first place, but in my stuff I have it in my head that few trainers have more than a badge or two, so once they begin to climb higher than that, companies start looking at them.

As for schooling... I haven't really considered it, honestly. I danced around it with Steven, with the private tutor thing. As for the other characters, it's something I should consider.

When it comes to government, the League governs Pokémon training and whatnot, but the Hoenn region is a bit like Canada, in that it's a parliamentary democracy with its own government and elections separate from Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, etc., but nominally still falls under the dominion of a monarch (the Emperor, who lives in Saffron City or something idk).

As for infrastructure, I've long ignored the lack of roads and whatnot in the games. There's a highway connecting Petalburg City and Oldale Town, and a ferry from Oldale Town across the inlet to the place where the Trick House and the entrance to Cycling Road is, north of Slateport.

I think the games lack a lot of these things because they're simply not necessary to the games' experience. As I've said before, Game Freak doesn't seem to be interested in making a particularly deep RPG experience, and really they don't have to.

 

[AceTrainer14]

Interrupting for a mildly urgent bulletin:
All the images for the badges and the Summer 2014 banners have been restored. Go to the Hall of Fame to check them out
Also, if anyone can make banners, we really need some help with the Winter ones. We've hit some snags so anyone who can help some brothers out would be greatly appreciated.
Ace out, go back to chatting.

 

[AetherX]

Anyone who reads my fic knows I've tackled pretty much all of those things at one point or another. I won't go into detail. They're all solvable problems, but they're still frustrating whenever they come up. I'll be halfway through a scene and realize that I can't fall back on canon for an explanation for some basic thing if I want it to stand up to literally any logical scrutiny. It also depends on how much you or your readers care about plot holes.

The only unavoidable, constant reocurring expense is food, which can be dealt with in two ways; hunted (depending on what type of world you're writing in) or bought with money made while traveling (from trainer battles, etc., if game logic applies).

Well I have a lot of similar problems with getting money from trainer battles. Is it a bet or is it a flat rate? Who decides how much to pay? What if the loser refuses to pay up? Who enforces that? What are the punishments for not giving away your cash? It seems like a lot of weight to put on the outcome of a simple sport And if the money doesn't come from battles then where does it come from? Do these kids save up money their whole lives for the journey or is it part of the system? I use something similar to Pav's Poké Gelt idea myself. That's my thing, game logic pretty much never applies if held to a reasonable human being's logical standard.

Also: congrats on being made a mod! I was psyched when I saw that the General staff picked you.

 

[Lord Kyuubi]

What was even with Plasma's aesthetic? Their goal was to liberate Pokemon, which is cool. But that doesn't explain the knight getup. Is it because they're on a "crusade" or something?

Plasma comes from the fact fire and lightning (ie Reshiram and Zekrom) combined make plasma. I think the whole knight-get up is to do with the fact the backstory of Unova is grounded in warring kings - knights served for kings? Maybe they'd just watched too much Game of Thrones while developing (was that even out then?)

I think Plasma's 'knight' look is supposed to relate to N being their king, maybe, sort of like you said here. Maybe N just wanted that sort of aesthetic, or it helped him feel the part, or something. Doesn't explain why N himself just wears normal clothes, though.

Now that you mention Game of Thrones, though, I'm fairly sure a lot of the costumes in that are actually less practical as armour than a Plasma grunt's getup (if it's made properly, of course). Actually, maybe that's why they dress like that.

I view the whole 'League having a lot of influence' is actually quite fair. Here in New Zealand, our whole country basically stops when there is a huge event on like the Rugby World Cup - we had law changes last year to make it easier for people to go see it. You have things like the Superbowl or the Melbourne Cup that bring their countries practically to a halt. I think in a world where people live surrounded by fire-breathing monsters, combining that with sports as a spectacle is not a wholly ridiculous idea.

I agree to a point - it'd definitely be very influential, not to mention the impact of having children going off on journeys all the time. Being a teacher must be frustrating - "Excuse me, where is half the class?" "Three are in Pewter City, two made it to Cerulean, and the rest are lost in a cave somewhere, miss."

One problem I have with League being a governing body, though, is that anyone who's a good enough trainer can become champion or, presumably an Elite Four member. Would anyone here really like to live in a country that someone like Blue could take over at any time?

 

[Beth Pavell]

Prize money is probably one of the first game mechanics that really should be thrown out, in my opinion. In a game it's just fine and dandy. But as Aether says, when you start thinking about it for just five minutes you run into a lot of problems.

I actually think that the trainer journey wouldn't be a hugely expensive endeavour. If it's that common, a huge industry would have grown up around the concept, in terms of companies selling supplies, accommodation, etc, etc. I suppose the poorest of kids would have a hard time being able to go by virtue of never being able to save enough to get started in the first place.

It just occurs to me that I touched on this in The Long Walk. One of my main characters has to scrape the start-up cash together as a young adult - the other has help from her aunt, though their idea of the basics is rather different, since she can afford to buy a Pokédex