Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

[Instrutilus]

I am beginning to question that myself. I want to reinvent the legendaries more as gods but it also makes it difficult to also have them associated with the trainers

Well, have them ally up with the trainers instead of capturing them, à la the Unova Legendary Dragons. If capturing them is a must, just have them acknowledge that's merely how Humans work and allow themselves to be put inside the ball until such a time as they're no longer needed.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I don't see that you have to acknowledge a lot of the legends as literal fact at all. I mean, let's take Dialga as a random example. Looking at the Pokédex data, the only thing stated as fact is that Dialga can control the flow of time and can therefore travel back and forth through time at will. Everything else is stated as a myth or legend.

To compare, it was said in medieval bestiaries that (Quoting from Isadore of Seville) "Lions will only attack a man when they are extremely hungry; otherwise they are so gentle that they cannot be provoked unless they are struck". This isn't true at all, and in fact it may well be that the medieval reader knew this damn well, because the purpose of the bestiary wasn't to be a scientific guide but a collection of metaphors to show how Christianity was supposedly in the natural order of things. Beliefs can be viewed as being valuable and not literally true at the same time.

So, swinging back to the original question, suppose someone managed to catch a Dialga? Well, the way I see it, if for centuries they've been an object of worship, would anyone be able to get away with studying it? Would they even study it in a purely scientific way, or would they do so through the lens of belief? If they did, who's to say it would give any conclusive answers? I'm reminded of some of the counter-arguments to Paley's Watch. Paley's Watch is an analogy for the Intelligent Design argument for the existence of God. In short, it runs like this:

Suppose you were out walking one day and came across a watch lying in the grass. You'd be able to tell, from examining it, that it has a purpose (To measure the passage of time), and that it carries out this function very efficiently. In other words, it has obviously been designed. So if there is a watch, there must be a watchmaker. The watch stands in for the world: the watchmaker stands in for God. Now, there are some obvious counter-arguments to this, especially that what appears to be designed can be explained by natural, unguided forces. But this is something that wouldn't have been all that conclusively proven in, say, Darwin's time. Some philosophers have argued that the incredible forces of natural selection demonstrate greater complexity in the design of the world (I.e: natural selection is another gear in the world watch).

Carrying that analogy over, well, suppose someone did catch a Dialga, but it just generated more questions than answers? Imagine how you would try to study a creature like that without a modern understanding of quantum physics. I mean, that's assuming it didn't just choose to disappear into the past the moment it was released from the capture device. I think the change it would generate would probably be theological - clergy would find ways to reconcile the new science with the old scripture. It would depend, too, on what kind of deity it was. The Sinnoh legendaries really fit the mould of Shinto kami - respected, certainly, but not worshipped as such

 

[Instrutilus]

Paley's Watch arguement here

Just because a lion roars, does not mean a kitten does.

Regardless, this all would be very interesting for any form of story, even beyond Pokémon. What if God was proven to exist? How would the world react to such a discovery?

 

[Misfit Angel]

I imagine very poorly. Probably jihads and crusades on a scale we've never seen before. We finally have proof, time to kill all these nonbelievers!

 

[Instrutilus]

And if God isn't what they think he is? Then what will they do?

 

[Beth Pavell]

And if God isn't what they think he is? Then what will they do?

That's the key point, I think. Most religious conflicts tend - and have tended to be - a matter of differences of belief. Scientific proof of a god would raise a lot of theological questions, even if religious authorities were prepared to accept the proof.

The bigger problem would be with atheism. For those atheists who really do justify their lack of belief on scientific grounds, I suppose it would be relatively easy to accept. But if you've spent your life gleefully sniggering at people believing in fairy tales and the like, suddenly you're faced with a very uncomfortable problem

 

[Instrutilus]

Yeah, I'd be the former.

"Oh, so God exists. Well then, pizza's on me gu-looks around to see he's alone-Oh right, I don't talk to people in person "

 

[CrystaI]

Can't we go as frank as Alicia and Silmeria in Valyrie Profile: Silmeria, or Bell and Hestia in Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatte Iru Darouka: Familia Myth?

I don't know how other people think, but for me personally, if I ever encounter a "God/Deity" descent from "Heaven" where he/she/it/they wanted to befriend me, THEN GO FOR IT!!! I personally wouldn't mind it at all. Oppositely, probably I would feel very appreciated and proud of myself of having such friend.
Whatever the surrounding community thinks about religions and how they think getting closer to "God" is an utmost unforgivable sin that such person must be crucified even that person is the "friend" of God, these are just none of my business, because that is not my thinking pattern.

I'm not saying these things for the reason of I depreciate any sort of religions nor that I'm any atheist (In fact, I'll group myself more to being an agnosticist). But it is just that I think many people took religious issue TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO seriously, to the point of killing one's creativity when it comes to including religious elements in one's fic.

Let's not using Pokemon, but rather related to Real-Life for discussion. Provided that I look to Europe to travel, found out that the characters I learned from Greek mythology is still alive! Zeus the supreme gods of all and father of all human being is alive! His wife Hera the queen of heaven standing next to him!! Also his own family is still there!!! A pantheon of so many gods that are still alive!!!! Holy f**king awesome!!!!!
So what?
Do you expect me to bow my head down before them like the lowest scum to be tread by everyone? Give my greatest respect and reverence and my every love to them in a manner like everything in my live is not important except them? Serve them with all my heart and soul like a king or emperor of earth?
Absolutely no way!!!
If the Greek legends and mythology are true, I would then appreciate very much the achievements done by the Zeus family to earth, and give some respects to their past. But that doesn't mean I would then admire their existence, nor devalue myself and throw my self-esteem out of the window if I ever meet them in person. If by any chance, the Zeus family was irritated and commit violence because I failed to show any action of respect to them, then very good, because I think then you and your family weren't even worthy enough to be respected. I show respect to the ones I think that are truly worthy to be respected.

"God", "Deity", etc. In terms of character, to me personally they are just a title of their role, it has absolutely no bearing to the inner personality and characteristics of their own self. That goes the same also to other earthly titles like "President", "CEO", "Head of Government Department", "Duke", "Hero", etc.
I appreciate a person in terms of one's inner characteristics, not exactly on one's past achievements, nor all those grandiose titles branded by the surrounding communities.

 

[Instrutilus]

Let's not using Pokemon, but rather related to Real-Life for discussion. Provided that I look to Europe to travel, found out that the characters I learned from Greek mythology is still alive! Zeus the supreme gods of all and father of all human being is alive! His wife Hera the queen of heaven standing next to him!! Also his own family is still there!!!

I doubt his family would be there with him. Asshole's probably out on one of his regular 'business trips'.

 

[CrystaI]

^ Good joke, and quite a good reply thinking them in terms of being a standalone character.


It is just the point of, despite the society deemed something as holy almighty "god/deity", thus that mean everyone must treat those beings in such unwritten customary manner as expected by the majority of the respective religious community? I can tell you for sure, even in Real-Life not every single person will do so. That's why we have religious studies (No, it is NOT theology) as an academic degree, look at religions objectively and secularly. You can't say all those students are atheistic sinners, because they are not. They are just looking at religions in a different manner, nonetheless they respect religions, and respect the ones believe in those religions.

Sorry if my wording sounds like I'm desacralizing the existence of god/deity, but it is just that I found a very big logic hole in Beth Pavell's statements. It is that she look at Legendary Pokemon already from a very sacred philosophical viewpoint, additionally with the presupposition of religion and science are two mutual exclusive things that cannot coexist, moreover the acceptance of "absoluteness" of God/Deity common in most monotheist.

Call me sinful, or that I'm just that "stupid" where I can't understand the social psychology of our Real-Life Christianity in a theological manner, or that I'm just that "arrogant" that I don't worship any supernatural identity in an idolized manner to the point of whatever they say I follow unquestioningly.
But, in the case of if I ever include Legendary Pokemons in my fic, I just will not let my character dig so deep into philosophy upon the moment of encountering, plagued by many thoughts of how should I treat it, what manner and attitude should I hold in front of such pokemon, should I address this issue to the religious authorities, why it is here as it was known to be holy almighty GOD by our society, if I capture it will I be blamed and crucified by everyone in town, if I capture it what kind of influence will I bring to the theological status of this whole world, oh it is there wanting to join me so thus that mean it is not GOD afterall, was the doctrine of the religion I believe in were all wrong, etc et cetera.
Don't worry, I'll never make you troubled by such annoying thoughts, because it will just makes my overall story so annoying to read, unless such mental struggle with the religious beliefs is the theme of my fic. In any case, in my fic one just will not encounter them by pure luck. If one ever happened to encounter them, it will always be the Legendary Pokemon do so on their own initiative.

As part of the world-building, how the overall human society view the Legendary Pokemon is an important question. But, as we are fiction writers, we are here to write a story about some specific characters set in that world, not just simply building a world then call it end of the day. So the important point is not the overworld, but rather the characterization doubt: How Legendary Pokemon sees themselves? And how each individual characters sees the Legendary Pokemon?
It is not necessarily the case that Legendary Pokemon seeing themselves as any form of God/Deities, or in a more correct theological sense, the religious supreme holy symbol to be worshiped and respected by the earthlings, how do they behave and react towards something is not influenced by how we human view them. On another hand, it is not always the case that a character even acknowledged a pokemon is any Legendary Pokemon upon encountering, or even if he/she knew it, does he/she view it as a God/Deity and worship it religiously is another different matter, and how they will react upon encountering is another issue.
The society has unwritten standardized norm and code of practice towards religious issue, but that doesn't mean every single characters must follow them. And because everyone has different view and different reactions towards the same issue, hence it is interesting to write story about different people, their interactions between each others, and their reactions/influence towards the surrounding.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I'm not sure whether you're missing the point or moving the goalposts, but anyway: the discussion was started by Instutilus posing a question about how the world might react to the capture of a legendary. So it's only sensible to answer that question in general terms - how might religious people react, how might atheists react, etc.

In any case, some points to pick up on. First of all, the study of religion is also the study of theology. You can't study a religion without also studying how believers see their beliefs. Secondly, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not insisting on a monothestic basis for a pokémon based religion - in fact I compared the Sinnoh legendaries to Shinto kami. Thirdly, I didn't state that religion and science are completely opposed ideas. What I said was that the advance of science (implied from catching a legendary pokémon, especially from trying to study) would probably have theological implications.

Anyway. Moving away from that for a moment and looking at applying this to a story. Well, it's been a pet peeve of mine when the poké-god (Whatever it is, Arceus, Mew, Articuno, etc) hands down a quest to the protagonist, who isn't shown to be in the least religious before, and afterwards isn't shown to be religious again, and the protagonist just accepts the divine authority of it all without question. It's a bit of a lazy plot device, and used that way, a waste. I can understand that authors might not want to craft an entire working religion and plug it into their region. There's good arguments for saying that it would be overbearing. But still, I think it does at least need some sort of acknowledgement as to what it means to the protagonist

 

[Misfit Angel]

I'm curious, has anyone spent an inordinate amount of time researching a specific subject for their writing? Like, an obsessively unhealthy amount of time, absorbing information that wouldn't even be relevant to what you're trying to write? I sometimes worry I do it too much.

I've been looking at the Battle of Trenton during the American Revolutionary War for about five days now and I'm surprised I'm still finding new information about it. I'm at the part where I'm reading letters of some of the soldiers involved, and I know that's completely irrelevant information for what I need, but I almost feel like I can't help myself.

Surely I'm not the only knowledge sponge who does this?

 

[Lugion]

I have to be very careful about that, myself.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Me too. I usually find myself trying to emulate Terry Pratchett, though, and he had a mind for just that sort of thing.

 

[CrystaI]

Not exactly for writing, but it started off from the reason of writing. I wanted to "see" the characters physically in order to stimulate my mind, so I went to study drawing. From the basic scribble on paper, to pencil rough sketch, then academic knowledge of how to draw correctly, to overall art studies, also then jump to character designs, branched out further to include clothing design and clothing history, jewelry design, interior design, architecture, city design, game design, webpage design, anything includes any sort of art elements.

Art just becomes my second hobby.
(I should had got an art diploma already if I done so far. But too bad, they are all self-study, hence absolutely no reward)

 

[Instrutilus]

I've been researching scientific concepts in order to try and get my stories as realistic as possible (once I start ¬3¬; ) without sacrificing any of the fantastic elements for quite a while now.

 

[0bs1d1an_kn1ght]

it's my birthday you guys

 

[AceTrainer14]

Happy Birthday @0bs1d1an_kn1ght ! Hope you have a great day

I always end up researching the weirdest things, mostly just so I can remember what the things are actually called.

 

[Instrutilus]

Happy Birthday.

 

[AceTrainer14]

There're five days left to vote in the User Categories, and since pretty much none of you have done so I hope to see a lot more of you casting your votes before that time is up.