Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

[PanicAttack]

From a storytelling point of view, it's all (Apparently) rather half-baked, and the same issue exists with Mega Evolution. The game makes a big thing about potential and bonds between pokémon and trainer, etc etc, but Mega Evolution at least is as classic a case of "show don't tell" as you can find - because it just happens, no matter what the protagonist does.

Even the requirements the game sets out are total nonsense. Allegedly you need a "strong bond" in order to use Mega Evolution, and there are two mechanics that measure such a thing - Pokémon Amie and friendship. Thing is, neither have any impact on whether or not a Pokémon can Mega Evolve. You could catch a Pokémon such as Kangaskhan and start using the Mega form right away so long as you had obtained both your Key Stone and the right Mega Stone. Needless to say, I call shenanigans.

 

[MisheardWhisper]

Perhaps 'difficult' was the wrong word - I'm talking about the same thing you are here. The Tower of Mastery Lucario was intended as an easy way to introduce the new concept of Mega Evolution to players, giving them a Mega-capable Pokemon to play with reasonably early. I think we forget that Pokemon is targeted at children, and completely new concepts like that do have to be spoon-fed a little bit. The Lati@s in ORAS is the same, you don't have to do anything special to obtain it and its Mega form, but that's just how it's got to be. If you want to Mega Evolve anything else, it's gonna be at the end of a pretty long journey. As I mentioned, they lock it behind final evolutions (except a few, like Kangaskhan/Sableye/Absol), which means you won't be getting most of them till mid-late game at the earliest, probably later. The stones themselves are often well hidden, too. Just because there isn't an explicit mechanical requirement (e.g. get three hearts in Pokemon-Amie, collect 220 friendship points, participate in six Gym battles together, whatever) doesn't mean there's no challenge or progression towards reaching them.

If I want a Mega Gyarados now, I can go fish up or breed a Magikarp using my knowledge of how the game works, EV train and quickly level it, then Google where the Gyaradosite is and go collect it. That's all there is to it, and I agree that's simple and lacks any lore flavour whatsoever. But that's because I a) have already completed the game and b) have access to the Internet and other resources. Raising a Magikarp is a lot harder when it's early game Alpha Sapphire and all you can do is send it out first, then switch it out for another Pokemon that can actually battle. Even once you have a Gyarados, you've got to find its Mega Stone to unlock its power. Ideally, you'll take your Gyarados and set off on an adventure to find the stone, until you eventually come across it in a fisherman's hut near a lake where Gyarados and Magikarp can be caught. Again, the Pokemon series isn't necessarily designed to be metagamed to all hell. You're free to do that; I sure as hell do. But for your average player, without the benefits of Smogon guides, years of competitive battling experience, Serebii itemdex, Bulbapedia's egg move lists and all that stuff . . . it's a completely different story.

I dunno, I just feel like Mega Evolution really wouldn't be improved at all by the addition of some arbitrary measure of 'bond' that you have to have with your Pokemon before you can use it. Do I really feel like I'm blood brothers with my Pokemon if I spend some time playing 'bounce the yarn ball' with them and feeding them sweets? Not really, it'll just become another arbitrary box to tick to unlock Mega Evolution.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Again, I'm coming back round to the storytelling aspect of it. Putting a tutorial up on top of the Tower: ok, fine. There's no reason why the tutorial had to be tied to that Lucario, or Mega Evolution. If I remember correctly, you battle with a pokémon you've literally just met and then get hailed as a master of Mega Evolution when you win said tutorial battle in one turn.

The game keeps making a big deal of the pokémon/trainer bond, but the only difficult aspect of the idea is finding the Mega Stone. Much like Chuck throwing boulders around, that's got nothing to do with pokémon. The fact that its a game doesn't make that any less illogical.

If there really must be a quick route to Mega Evolution - to keep the competitive players from complaining - then why couldn't it have been some sort of trial or mini game during the main playthrough that unlocks it? Sure, from a storytelling perspective it's still somewhat silly that solving a maze or something gives you an instant deep mystic connection with every forgotten pokémon in the PC, but it would at least be something to suggest that the protagonist has had to do something to get it. As it stands the game just straight up contradicts itself. If it were part of a quiet sidequest somewhere it might be ignorable, but it's right there in the main plot

 

[MisheardWhisper]

The game keeps making a big deal of the pokémon/trainer bond, but the only difficult aspect of the idea is finding the Mega Stone.

Because as I keep saying, the bond between Trainer and Pokemon is implied to just grow naturally. You journey together with them, win battles, level up, catch new partners, ride on their back across the ocean, whatever. The Mega evos being gated behind hidden stones is just a gameplay excuse for them to basically say 'hey, you created this bond with your Pokemon without even realising it'. I like it that way - it feels much more organic and realistic. Perhaps they could have made it more explicit, by triggering flashbacks or something when you pick up a Mega Stone for a Pokemon in your party. There's that girl in Anistar City who reads your Pokemon's memories and tells you stuff like 'Greninja remembers battling Grant at the Cyllage Gym with Fulcrum. It tried its hardest and managed to win the badge'. They could work something like that into it, but they shouldn't really need to. The bond is there, by the time you reach the stage of the game where you have access to Mega Evolution (outside the 'demo version' Lucario). Locking it behind some cheap sidequest or gimmicky trial wouldn't really help at all. It's no different to the Pokemon-Amie requirement mentioned earlier; if it's something you can do as simply as throwing a switch, what meaning does it really have? 'You have no bond with Charizard. Do <thing>! Now you have a bond with Charizard.' I mean, what?

It's not Game Freak's fault we all play the games like soulless robots. If you've been through six to eight Gyms and the entire Team Flare scenario - which you have by the time you find most usable Mega Stones - then there is going to be a bond between you and your Pokemon. They've been there with you all along, battling for you, saving the world together, surmounting challenges. I honestly consider the Lucario thing on the Tower of Mastery completely separate to Mega Evolution on the whole. It's a simple way to get a Key Stone into your hands (which could have been expanded, I agree) and it dumps this Lucario on you so you can get used to the idea of Mega Evolution early on. It's a gateway drug, so to speak. If you want to use Mega Evolution with the Pokemon that grew with you along the journey, that will be an adventure in its own right.

 

[Beth Pavell]

It's not implied at all - the friendship and Amie mechanics are both ways of showing that. Even if we assume that neither of those mechanics exist, being able to Mega Evolve a pokémon you literally just acquired still makes no sense at all. Either the problem has to be acknowledged, or the whole concept should be dropped entirely and Mega Evolution simply be tied to things, not emotions.

The Delta Episode runs into this kind of "Because the author says so" plot hole as well. That moment in the Hideout is the standout example, where you the protagonist are rooted to the spot just so Zinnia can flounce out of the door unchallenged. There's no reason given as to why you can't battle her. There's only one exit to the room (Which you happen to be standing in the way of). There's no logical reason why you should be powerless at all, in fact.

The point is, if a plot point doesn't make sense or is downright contradicted, it's a plot hole, and that's bad storytelling

 

[PanicAttack]

Because as I keep saying, the bond between Trainer and Pokemon is implied to just grow naturally. You journey together with them, win battles, level up, catch new partners, ride on their back across the ocean, whatever. The Mega evos being gated behind hidden stones is just a gameplay excuse for them to basically say 'hey, you created this bond with your Pokemon without even realising it'. I like it that way - it feels much more organic and realistic. Perhaps they could have made it more explicit, by triggering flashbacks or something when you pick up a Mega Stone for a Pokemon in your party. There's that girl in Anistar City who reads your Pokemon's memories and tells you stuff like 'Greninja remembers battling Grant at the Cyllage Gym with Fulcrum. It tried its hardest and managed to win the badge'. They could work something like that into it, but they shouldn't really need to. The bond is there, by the time you reach the stage of the game where you have access to Mega Evolution (outside the 'demo version' Lucario). Locking it behind some cheap sidequest or gimmicky trial wouldn't really help at all. It's no different to the Pokemon-Amie requirement mentioned earlier; if it's something you can do as simply as throwing a switch, what meaning does it really have? 'You have no bond with Charizard. Do <thing>! Now you have a bond with Charizard.' I mean, what?

It's not Game Freak's fault we all play the games like soulless robots. If you've been through six to eight Gyms and the entire Team Flare scenario - which you have by the time you find most usable Mega Stones - then there is going to be a bond between you and your Pokemon. They've been there with you all along, battling for you, saving the world together, surmounting challenges. I honestly consider the Lucario thing on the Tower of Mastery completely separate to Mega Evolution on the whole. It's a simple way to get a Key Stone into your hands (which could have been expanded, I agree) and it dumps this Lucario on you so you can get used to the idea of Mega Evolution early on. It's a gateway drug, so to speak. If you want to use Mega Evolution with the Pokemon that grew with you along the journey, that will be an adventure in its own right.

What you said doesn't refute what I said about finding the stone then the Pokémon. Let's take a Pokémon with a Mega form and no pre-evolutions - Absol, for the sake of argument. So you get your Absolite, then you go out and catch an Absol. You give the Absol the Absolite and you can already Mega Evolve it. You could capture the Absol then box it until you get the Absolite. You could get the Absol (or any of the Pokémon with a Mega form really) through a trade. In each of these cases, there is no bond to speak of between you and Absol at this point, so the whole "you need a strong bond between Pokémon and trainer" is a lie.

In your examples, then not only is there time and stuff happening, but unless you play like an utter sadist then there's also the friendship mechanic at play. Even just that would nail the whole "you need a bond to Mega Evolve" thing, and it's really no different from a friendship evolution. The issue is simply the mechanics do not reflect the lore. All I'm asking for is a simple thing like that.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I should probably say now that I don't find the storytelling in the Pokémon games to be all that compelling either, and I don't expect it to be. My problem with Mega Evolution and especially the Delta Episode is how badly thought-through they are

 

[Flaze]

Guys I have an announcement to make! if everything goes well I'll be posting Year III tonight.

 

[Instrutilus]

Holy wall of text! What the hell did I miss?

 

[PanicAttack]

I should probably say now that I don't find the storytelling in the Pokémon games to be all that compelling either, and I don't expect it to be. My problem with Mega Evolution and especially the Delta Episode is how badly thought-through they are

The storytelling peaked in Black and White for me. Even then it wasn't amazing (Ghetsis's ultimate plan was pretty dumb and the Team Plasma members who weren't N and Ghetsis were severely underutilised, probably because there were so many of them) but it was several steps in the right direction. BW2 took as many steps forwards as it did backwards but then they blew it in XY.

Still, as flawed as the storytelling is in the games, I'd be lying if I said it didn't give a lot of potentially great material that's ripe for patching up.

Holy wall of text! What the hell did I miss?

A discussion of how stupid Mega Evolution is in the Pokémon games.

 

[Beth Pavell]

It was ok, I guess. As I recall it was better paced throughout the game. Still built on clichés, mind, even if Plasma's objective has made the most sense since Team Rocket. I just wish that a) the stupid pop-up castle hadn't been there and b) the Sages hadn't been there. There was nothing sagacious about any of them, ffor a start

 

[diamondpearl876]

I'm not entirely sure why we're arguing against how natural the bond between pokemon and trainer is supposed to be, when it's been established since pokemon r/b/y. "Dreams and adventures" await you with your pokemon, says Professor Oak at the beginning of the game. When you become champion, Oak says Blue lost because he forgot to treat his pokemon with "trust and love" and that without that, he can never be champion again. Not to mention the whole quiz you have to take in g/s/c to get the Rising Badge... Oh, and how your player in BW/BW2 fights to prevent the liberation of pokemon when Team Plasma at some point argues that it's inhumane and cruel.

Anddd evolving through friendship I believe was first introduced in g/s/c as well, and I don't remember any tutorial describing how the egg that hatches into Togepi can evolve into Togetic through friendship. I'm pretty sure you have to figure it out yourself or look online, though I could be wrong.

That was all just off the top of my head. I agree mega evolution doesn't make sense when you think about it because you can evolve any pokemon you catch without actually spending time with the pokemon, but everyone's pretty much agreed "it actually makes sense that Gamefreak didn't make mega evolution make sense because it's directed at kids/the storytelling is never that elaborate anyway"...

...so can we actually discuss potential ideas of how to integrate mega evolution into fics?

 

[AceTrainer14]

Sweet Arceus, we haven't had a healthy debate like this for a while! Nice to see a bit of headbutting going on

I am on two sides. Firstly, I do think the games need to do something to make it more interesting, whether it is Mega Evolutions or different typing of old Pokemon. Though BW was a good game and had a decent story, it was still a bit stale and repetitive, and the games sorely needed a jazzing up. I do kind of like how S&M seems to be doing a different style of challenges as opposed to the same old/same old. My main problem is that they seem to be sacrificing the new Pokemon in favour of jazzing up the old ones: very few of the Kalos Pokemon are really that good, and most of the Alola Pokemon so far have been pretty subpar (I am hoping the starters at least have cool evolutions).

But yeah, as DP said, nothing ever makes sense in the games, so why argue about it - it's up to us as the writers to make it make sense I have ideas for Mega Evolutions in the GVerse, and definitely hope I can find a way to pull it off.

 

[diamondpearl876]

Obviously we don't know everything about Sun and Moon yet, but it already looks like they're doing other things in favor of dropping mega evolution or at least casting it off to the background to be forgotten. I agree they seem to be giving up on the new pokemon a bit - though I do like a few of them - but it seems to be in response to the fanbase. Fans generally prefer the older generations, so it makes sense to improve upon them. But it's not a new generation game without new pokemon, so... they're going to keep that up - for now, at least. It seems they're even cutting back on that given how few new pokemon were released in gen 6. I think they'll keep testing the waters for a while.

 

[MisheardWhisper]

It's not implied at all - the friendship and Amie mechanics are both ways of showing that. Even if we assume that neither of those mechanics exist, being able to Mega Evolve a pokémon you literally just acquired still makes no sense at all. Either the problem has to be acknowledged, or the whole concept should be dropped entirely and Mega Evolution simply be tied to things, not emotions.

The Delta Episode runs into this kind of "Because the author says so" plot hole as well. That moment in the Hideout is the standout example, where you the protagonist are rooted to the spot just so Zinnia can flounce out of the door unchallenged. There's no reason given as to why you can't battle her. There's only one exit to the room (Which you happen to be standing in the way of). There's no logical reason why you should be powerless at all, in fact.

The point is, if a plot point doesn't make sense or is downright contradicted, it's a plot hole, and that's bad storytelling

The Delta Episode is nonsense and I will never deny that. Most stories in Pokemon are nonsense, in fact. I just don't see why it's so bad to have something implied instead of explicitly dumped on your head from time to time. Adding a specific mechanical requirement just adds more useless noise that wouldn't really contribute to the idea of Mega Evolution in any significant way, imo.

What you said doesn't refute what I said about finding the stone then the Pokémon. Let's take a Pokémon with a Mega form and no pre-evolutions - Absol, for the sake of argument. So you get your Absolite, then you go out and catch an Absol. You give the Absol the Absolite and you can already Mega Evolve it. You could capture the Absol then box it until you get the Absolite. You could get the Absol (or any of the Pokémon with a Mega form really) through a trade. In each of these cases, there is no bond to speak of between you and Absol at this point, so the whole "you need a strong bond between Pokémon and trainer" is a lie.

That example is just like my Gyarados one. Sure, you can do it that way, but that's not the intended way to play the game. Remember that most people playing Pokemon aren't bothering to raise postgame teams. Most people won't be battling competitively, so they're never going to have a level 100 Pokemon. They'll finish the game, maybe do the Delta Episode or the Looker story and leave it because there's nothing else unless you really want to kick your friends' asses. Mega Evolution has to be in the game and accessible for them as well, and more often than not your average player won't go out of their way to catch/breed and raise a whole new Pokemon for the purposes of Mega Evolution. They'll play through the whole game with their Manectric or their Charizard or their Salamence or whatever, and then they'll find the Mega Stone and they'll believe the bond is there because, as dp mentioned, that's what the Pokemon games have been hammering us with since day 1.

Look at it this way. Every single person posting on this forum sits well outside the average. The same is true of any video game, TV or book fandom: the people seeking out forums online and posting about the series are far more serious about it than the majority, simply by virtue of being invested enough to discuss it further. Fanfiction writers are more intense still, since we make a habit of ripping the canon to shreds and asking 'why?'. We're all looking at Pokemon far more critically than it was ever intended to be, and of course if you pick something apart like that it will fall apart a bit. If Pokemon was sold as some kind of deep, immersive JRPG with a dense, interwoven storyline and realistic villains and complicated mechanics, then sure, I could understand the hate. But we forget that it's just a kids' video game. All the stuff about breeding, IVs, EVs, egg moves, optimal movesets, that's stuff the community has latched onto in order to keep their interest in Pokemon alive. Game Freak have been slowly starting to cater to that crowd with things like Super Training, egg hatching paths, or the new IV training mechanic in Gen VII, but at its core Pokemon still has to appeal to a casual audience. And for a casual audience, Mega Evolution makes perfect sense. They're not going to be going out and catching a new Pokemon just so they can evolve it straight away. No, they'll just try and find Mega Stones for the Pokemon already in their party, the ones they've grown attached to.

I still hold that adding a mechanical checkbox like Amie or friendship is just pointless. Does it feel 'special' when your Eevee evolves into a Sylveon just because you spent some time patting it? I know it didn't for me, I was just sighing and waiting for the hearts to fill up. When my Golbat evolved into a Crobat, I didn't feel like I'd particularly earned it. Bonds of friendship shouldn't just be a 'fulfil X condition to activate' like some kind of robot. At most, I'd support having each particular Mega Stone not appear in the game until you've obtained the relevant Pokemon - maybe you'd even have to have them in your party when you find it.

 

[AceTrainer14]

Exactly, that's what I mean. It's almost out of obligation they are still making new Pokemon ie new toys, new merchandise opportunities, instead of just focusing on the old ones. I think new fans wouldnt care if the Pokemon are always the same. Unova they tried making it all new and that seemed to backfire since they retreated on it in BW2.

 

[Instrutilus]

My personal interpretation is that Mega Evolution occurs when the Trainer sends their aura to them and the Pokémon uses it to bolster their Infinite Energy through the Keystones, which act as a sort of translator between the two fairly different energy sources. Which is also why Pokémon have their own Keystone: they're keyed to the shared aura signatures, basically the parts of aura shared by all of the species. This process is only available in situations where the aura is up and ready to go, so battle situations and travelling to and from places quickly, versus resting where the aura has simmered down.

The reason they say a Pokémon must have a strong bond with the Trainer is because that's what works best. If they try and force it, the Trainer can over exert themselves and pass out, which if they just tried to force a Charizard to Mega Evolve probably wouldn't end so well for them, or not send enough through and fail the transformation, wasting precious time. It can be done, but it's generally not a good idea.

I would like to see stories where the enemy team is attempting to artificially induce Mega Evolution, considering the chaos in Hoenn and Kalos probably brought these powered up Pokémon to their attention. I also have an idea for a new type of Mega Evolution, "Shadow Evolution", which expands on the Shadow Pokémon from Orre and Ferrum regions (I say they're related), with Shadow Lugia being a prototypical Shadow Evolution that still needed fine tuning.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Pokémon as a franchise is one big balancing act, I won't argue with that. Forum-going fans aren't necessarily representative of all Pokémon fans, I certainly won't argue with that. The fanbase is basically unpleasable - the complaints about the pokémon designs every generation show that.

What I dispute is this idea that big obvious plot holes are ok because the games aren't primarily marketed at teens, or because some people aren't bothered about a friendship mechanic. If you're writing original content and the plot doesn't make sense, rewrite it. It's not even as if the examples I've cited are even small, or a necessary evil created by the medium. Video game stories are inherently shallow compared to a book or a film, that's just a consequence of giving the player necessary control to play a game. There's no reason why the mystic bond requirement of Mega Evolution couldn't have been dropped, or Zinnia couldn't have already have escaped in the Hideout during the Delta Episode

 

[PanicAttack]

On a side note, what I find particularly silly about the Zinnia escaping plot hole is that not only do Escape Ropes exist, but Silver uses one to escape Sprout Tower in the Johto games. It's a tiny detail that would have sorted it, and was used in a previous game.

 

[Instrutilus]

Eh, Zinnia doesn't really seem the type to go out and buy an Escape Rope, she seems the type who'd rely on Draconid techniques even when an easier and more convinient alternative was laying at her feet.