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REVIEW: XY100: Decisive Battle in the Ninja Village! Gekogashira VS Kirikizan!!

Sakuraa

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When he dex'd it (which I think was immediately post-evo and before he commanded any moves) water shuriken was mentioned as Geckouga's movez.
Did he? I'm not sure how I missed that, but ok.
 

Alola

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Lol dman dustin do you enjoy trying to analyze every aspect of my opinion? Rather than waste time and space trying to "correct" or "debunk" opinions of an episode we will never agree on, you should just write your own opinion separately.

Anyway, I'll just respond to two of he points you noted that struck out at me the most:

1) Yes, the ninja plot did indeed seem random. We're in Kalos, the region based on beauty and France. And we have...a ninja village in some remote area? What exactly do they do for a living? How do they get by? Why does it seem people just stand around in stereotypical ninja outfits and do nothing all day? Ash & Co just seemed so out of place being there as well. I understand that is Pokemon and logic is a controversial matter, but its still jarring. Frogadier could have just as easily evolved when it fought Olympia rather than have a rushed two part arc dedicated to it (in which its special ability in question is barely even commented on). And no, other Pokemon don't have plots and locations specifcally catered to their evolution. The only reason we even had this, and not to say it's a bad reason, is because of Greninja and its ninja like characteristics. If Ash had a Blastoise or Swampert, etc this treatment wouldn't have been received.

2) Yes, it was odd that everyone stopped fighting to see the evolution. In a series where battles can be merciless and Trainers can, and have, ordered Pokemon to perform several attacks in succession without a chance from the opposing party to retaliate, its odd that a single evolution stopped everyone rather than the trainers immediately present for it. As everyone was in the thick of serious battle when it happened, to suddenly stop ruined that momentum (at least for me). And if the opponents were true ninja, they would have taken advantage of that situation to attack Serena & Co (or vice versa).
 

dman_dustin

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Lol dman dustin do you enjoy trying to analyze every aspect of my opinion?
I remember you talking about something similar.

Do you realize on Bulbapedia I don't typically notice the user names, so I think it's egotistical and rather insulting of you to think I'm targeting you specifically rather than discussing what you wrote.

I don't care who you are. Hilbert, Mareepy, Dogasu, dman_dustin, a moderator, I would've discussed your post regardless.
 

Alola

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I remember you talking about something similar.

Do you realize on Bulbapedia I don't typically notice the user names, so I think it's egotistical and rather insulting of you to think I'm targeting you specifically rather than discussing what you wrote.

I don't care who you are. Hilbert, Mareepy, Dogasu, dman_dustin, a moderator, I would've discussed your post regardless.
I guess you didn't realize that I was referring to this specific opinion about the ninja episode with my earlier comment.

But if you want to bring up other threads, then sure! There is a pattern of you reacting to my posts in the anime section. It isn't egotistical or insulting in the slightest, nor I did say that you're "targeting" me-it's an observation based on fact.

And for someone who doesn't recognize usernames, you sure did realize that this has happened several times before.
 

Mareepy

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I've always believed that Ash Greninja is a form to be MASTERED not ACHIEVED after some random trail or training.

It happened in this episode like I said the Ninja Village created their "religion" around Hero Greninja, it's not anyone's fault but the believers if they misinterpreted it as a thing that needs to be achieved rather than mastered. Just because it happened to someone else, doesn't mean that other person knows everything.

The future trial with Ash and Greninja will be what helps Greninja master its new form. It never made sense for a new form to activate as it achieved something through training and trial, its something that someone should have access to, but just like some instances of MEGA EVOLUTION like Korrina, you master the form change.

And also for all we know Hero Greninja might actually be Ash Greninja, in that Ash travels through time with his Ash Greninja and that's how the legend begins.
Ok, so its a form to be mastered and only Ash has a chance to try master it because they are special.... And that makes even having a trial pointless as they are the only one that will eventually succeed. that totally didn't change anything I said in the previous post.

And did I say about a random trial? You don't seem to understand one thing. Trial does not need to be an examination, it can simply be conflicts that happen that tests their bond, like how I thought it was going to be Ash's struggle against Shota and Alan and Greninja's dislike of losing can cause a conflict between them. To overcome a problem between them can be a trial. It doesn't need to be like 'Go through a dungeon' or 'Obtain an item'. What I hoped was Ash and Greninja finally able to understand each other to the fullest and then trigger Ash-Greninja.

And not just that, it doesn't change the fact that if it is a form to be mastered, then someone might have achieved it, especially a strong Ninja like Ippei. You just said the previous Hero Greninja might not know about how the form change actually happened, then it means the previous Hero Greninja achieved it without knowing how. Now I would like to ask, watching this episode, how good is Ippei? He is good, and seems to be a trainer atleast on par with Ash. How did he not achieve it first?

And once again, if it is simply because Ash and Greninja is the chosen one, no trial is needed as it is pointless in every angle.
 

dman_dustin

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Ok, so its a form to be mastered and only Ash has a chance to try master it because they are special.... And that makes even having a trial pointless as they are the only one that will eventually succeed. that totally didn't change anything I said in the previous post.

And did I say about a random trial? You don't seem to understand one thing. Trial does not need to be an examination, it can simply be conflicts that happen that tests their bond, like how I thought it was going to be Ash's struggle against Shota and Alan and Greninja's dislike of losing can cause a conflict between them. To overcome a problem between them can be a trial. It doesn't need to be like 'Go through a dungeon' or 'Obtain an item'. What I hoped was Ash and Greninja finally able to understand each other to the fullest and then trigger Ash-Greninja.

And not just that, it doesn't change the fact that if it is a form to be mastered, then someone might have achieved it, especially a strong Ninja like Ippei. You just said the previous Hero Greninja might not know about how the form change actually happened, then it means the previous Hero Greninja achieved it without knowing how. Now I would like to ask, watching this episode, how good is Ippei? He is good, and seems to be a trainer atleast on par with Ash. How did he not achieve it first?

And once again, if it is simply because Ash and Greninja is the chosen one, no trial is needed as it is pointless in every angle.
Okay did you even see the Korrina Arc with Lucario, where she could mega evolve her Lucario but Lucario went absolute crazy because Lucario couldn't fully control its new found power. And Lucario was out of sync with it new found strength?

Lucario needed to master its new power, it needed to master it.

Just like Ash and Greninja, the reason Greninja was able to change was because at the very moment in battle they were in sync, so we got a "taste" of what Ash Greninja is capable and to show us off the form change. But isn't a perfected form. It's like any sort of sport. Like Football, Billards, Archery, you may be able to pull off some amazing things the first time

And you keep missing my point, Greninja ITSELF is special. NOT every human is born with the same exact qualities. Not every Pokemon in the games have the same ability. Some Pikachu have lightning rod, some Pikachu have static.

The reason that Ippei and Sanpei canNOT synchro evolve their Greninja so there can be Ippei Greninja and Sanpei Greninja is because their Greninja wasn't BORN with the same quality/characteristic/ability to synchro evolve. Only Ash's Greninja was confirmed.

I'm pretty sure the very fact that this Hero Greninja is RARE and had only happened a 100 years prior should've been ENOUGH to clue in, JUST how RARE this phenmenon. This isn't something that happens TO everyone and their Greninja. Or even Staraptor or Heatmor if they also were different.

It's highly unlikely that in the off chance we get Synchro Staraptor, that Ash's Staraptor would change into said change form.

But let's imagine for a moment that I'm wrong. That maybe all relatable Pokemon that can change form like Greninja, could change like Greninja.

So then why was Ash able to do it first? Well why was there a 12 year old girl who knew about computers far more than me when I was an adult, that if she was still alive, she'd still know far more about computers. Or how about a piano prodigy? How can they be so naturally gifted, but I have to learn the hard way. That's how life is, and that's likely how life is in the Pokemon world, there are just some naturally gifted Pokemon and others have to learn to be gifted or skilled.

Given every single thing that can be inferred from the episodes however, Hero Greninja, Synchro Grenina whatever you want to call it, is NOT a common occurence. Very few, Greninja will ever achieve this next form. Maybe when the games come out with this type of evolution, we may see it more commonly.

But maybe Greninja itself the species itself is difficult to change, or maybe if all Greninja can become Hero Greninja, then maybe its a matter of seeing a Greninja capable of naturally doing it, such as Ash's Greninja. You learn by observation. Maybe if the phenomenon was more common, more Pokemon

But when you have a village, who's beliefs and legends are based around a long time ago, an event that happened a long time ago, and there was NOTHING that could be done at that time, no research could be done, so therefore the phenomenon is completely rare.

We do know Ash's Greninja is extremely rare, if not for its personality and characteristics, with what Olympia showed us in the episode before the gym battle. So of course, Ash's Greninja could naturally do what it could do.

It however does not mean that the story was horribly written and rushed, especially right now, when I actually believe that the obstacles and trials that Ash and Greninja will have to overcome will be about mastering the form. Just because Ash and Greninja managed to it once, doesn't mean it will always happen. Which would definitely explain the opening, where Ash could doubt himself because he can't repeat what happened in this episode.

It all makes sense when you consider there's more to it than what happened in this episode, and future storyline/plotlines to come likely revolving around this.
 

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Great episode. I liked that it was focused almost entirely in the climax with a few backstory stuff, instead of making things unnecesary more complex (looking at you Florges). It had great tension and intense battles, and all characters (except Bonnie and the "old lady") got to battle, I liked the focus on the resolution of Ippei vs Heidayu.

However, the other battles should have had a more focused resolution, and the villains overall should have got a better and more clear epilogue.

At least we know now that Sanpei is in a badge quest, and it looks like the fans will get their beloved "Greninja gets depressed" arc.
 

Mareepy

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Okay did you even see the Korrina Arc with Lucario, where she could mega evolve her Lucario but Lucario went absolute crazy because Lucario couldn't fully control its new found power. And Lucario was out of sync with it new found strength?

Lucario needed to master its new power, it needed to master it.

Just like Ash and Greninja, the reason Greninja was able to change was because at the very moment in battle they were in sync, so we got a "taste" of what Ash Greninja is capable and to show us off the form change. But isn't a perfected form. It's like any sort of sport. Like Football, Billards, Archery, you may be able to pull off some amazing things the first time

And you keep missing my point, Greninja ITSELF is special. NOT every human is born with the same exact qualities. Not every Pokemon in the games have the same ability. Some Pikachu have lightning rod, some Pikachu have static.

The reason that Ippei and Sanpei canNOT synchro evolve their Greninja so there can be Ippei Greninja and Sanpei Greninja is because their Greninja wasn't BORN with the same quality/characteristic/ability to synchro evolve. Only Ash's Greninja was confirmed.

I'm pretty sure the very fact that this Hero Greninja is RARE and had only happened a 100 years prior should've been ENOUGH to clue in, JUST how RARE this phenmenon. This isn't something that happens TO everyone and their Greninja. Or even Staraptor or Heatmor if they also were different.

It's highly unlikely that in the off chance we get Synchro Staraptor, that Ash's Staraptor would change into said change form.

But let's imagine for a moment that I'm wrong. That maybe all relatable Pokemon that can change form like Greninja, could change like Greninja.

So then why was Ash able to do it first? Well why was there a 12 year old girl who knew about computers far more than me when I was an adult, that if she was still alive, she'd still know far more about computers. Or how about a piano prodigy? How can they be so naturally gifted, but I have to learn the hard way. That's how life is, and that's likely how life is in the Pokemon world, there are just some naturally gifted Pokemon and others have to learn to be gifted or skilled.

Given every single thing that can be inferred from the episodes however, Hero Greninja, Synchro Grenina whatever you want to call it, is NOT a common occurence. Very few, Greninja will ever achieve this next form. Maybe when the games come out with this type of evolution, we may see it more commonly.

But maybe Greninja itself the species itself is difficult to change, or maybe if all Greninja can become Hero Greninja, then maybe its a matter of seeing a Greninja capable of naturally doing it, such as Ash's Greninja. You learn by observation. Maybe if the phenomenon was more common, more Pokemon

But when you have a village, who's beliefs and legends are based around a long time ago, an event that happened a long time ago, and there was NOTHING that could be done at that time, no research could be done, so therefore the phenomenon is completely rare.

We do know Ash's Greninja is extremely rare, if not for its personality and characteristics, with what Olympia showed us in the episode before the gym battle. So of course, Ash's Greninja could naturally do what it could do.

It however does not mean that the story was horribly written and rushed, especially right now, when I actually believe that the obstacles and trials that Ash and Greninja will have to overcome will be about mastering the form. Just because Ash and Greninja managed to it once, doesn't mean it will always happen. Which would definitely explain the opening, where Ash could doubt himself because he can't repeat what happened in this episode.

It all makes sense when you consider there's more to it than what happened in this episode, and future storyline/plotlines to come likely revolving around this.
I thought I was already clear enough. You didn't understand my post at all. I already made it clear that a trial is pointless if it is such a rare phenomenon that only Ash's Greninja can undergo. I already repeated this both on the start and the end of my previous post. This is BAD WRITING. No matter how you try to put it, no matter how the 'trial' is written, the 'trial' is totally pointless as the 'chosen one' factor is always in.

Let me make this clear, if it is a form to be mastered, everyone should have an equal chance. If it is the 'special' or chosen one' factor, then why even need a trial? I'll just repeat what I said in a previous post. "The 'Oh dude, you are the chosen one, there is a trial ahead but you can handle it anyways just because you are the chosen one' is one of the WORST writing."

Going into the trial with doubt and unsure if yourself is the chosen one is the way better writing, despite we, the audience probably know the answer already, as the character's doubt and how they overcome the doubt and believe is a very good plot point.

Now that with Ash and Greninja already knowing that they can achieve the form, its all about mastering it, now I ask you, what conflict can they develop? Not being able to master it on point? Not being able to master it fast enough? Not being able to use it when they battle Shota? Alan? All these will only make Greninja and Ash sounds impatient, and reliant on raw power as when they didn't discover the form everything is OK and when they do they can't do without the extra raw power anymore? Man that's some bond between them, and with this bond they are still able to make Ash-Greninja happen? This only makes the form an absolute joke.

And you kept taking Korrina and Lucario as the example. But here is the thing. You can go into Mega Lucario as long as you has a Keystone and Lucarionite, but only your bonds are able to make it controllable. And then here we are with from the official website quote unquote 'Ash-Greninja is the form that Greninja takes when the bond between it and Ash is raised to the limit.' If their bond is already at the limit, why even have a trial? If the trial mattered, the so called 'bond is raised to the limit' is a complete joke, as their peaked bond is so fragile that I would laugh at them. That quote is straight from See New Zygarde Formes in Animation News from Japan! | Pokemon.com, feel free to take a look at it.
 
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dman_dustin

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I thought I was already clear enough. You didn't understand my post at all. I already made it clear that a trial is pointless if it is such a rare phenomenon that only Ash's Greninja can undergo. I already repeated this both on the start and the end of my previous post. This is BAD WRITING. No matter how you try to put it, no matter how the 'trial' is written, the 'trial' is totally pointless as the 'chosen one' factor is always in.

Let me make this clear, if it is a form to be mastered, everyone should have an equal chance. If it is the 'special' or chosen one' factor, then why even need a trial? I'll just repeat what I said in a previous post. "The 'Oh dude, you are the chosen one, there is a trial ahead but you can handle it anyways just because you are the chosen one' is one of the WORST writing."
1, To make a Matrix movie reference, and whether you believe Neo was the chosen one or not. Neo still had to work hard and go through trials to end up being one of the strongest humans within the Matrix. He was chosen and yet he still had to go through a trial.

You don't get it, being the chosen one doesn't mean you're automatically are capable of anything and everything all of a sudden. THAT is bad writing.

Being the chosen one just means that you are the most likely one to succeed at whatever goal or quest. Let's assume that Goku from Dragonball Z is the chosen one. Look at all the trials and hardships he had to go through to get where he is now.

This isn't just something that is handed to you.

Greninja is the chosen one, to make a biological reference, just means that Greninja has the DNA capable of going through this transformation, something that most Greninja lack.

You even ignored my point. Some people get rare incurable diseases, because they are genetically predisposed to getting them, that's them being the chosen one. Etc, etc, etc.

But just because Greninja possessed the DNA to transform does not mean it can automatically transform and master the form, changing into a form does not equal mastering the form. Even in Dragonball Z, there was Super Sayian, and then Gohan and Goku mastered these states, so as to be in that state feels natural, like they're always in that state. But it just wasn't handed to them, they trained to be in that state, so much that they even forgot they were in that state.

To apply this to Pokemon and to counter your argument of what was said "Ash-Greninja is the form that Greninja takes when the bond between it and Ash is raised to the limit

You can reach that level, and not master it. To make another quick analogy. Let's use weightlifting as an example. You may be able to deadlift 300 pounds, at least once. It takes further training, and mastering to deadlift 300 pounds more than once.

To explain what happened in this episode, is at the time, at the very moment, Ash and Greninja were in sync, their bond had reached the limit. But it was a very off moment. Just like playing a very difficult time based video game, sometimes you do okay, sometimes you suck. Just watch normal youtubers playing difficult Mario Maker levels. Sometimes they get very far, but even when they make it far, sometimes they can't pass the first part of the level.

The trial, that Ash and Greninja will likely face, is to master that state, so they can achieve that form whenever they want.

Undoubtedly the very next time we deal with Ash Greninja, Ash and Greninja won't know what happen, they won't be able to replicate what happened in this episode. They will try, and maybe sometimes they will succeed but it won't be a state that they just achieve with FULL control. It is a state that needs to be mastered.

Even more real life examples. Sometimes even doing the same thing (as far as you are aware) can create different results. Sometimes though its the little things that cost you. Sometimes when you cook brownies they are really good. When you think you did the exact same thing, the brownies end up being burnt.

So it was never impossible for Greninja to randomly become Ash Greninja. What the point of this, is that Ash Greninja isn't a state easily accessible and not a state that is fully mastered.

The problem Ash and Greninja face is TRYING to replicate those results and likely failing to do so, until they go through some stuff, and then they will achieve that perfected state.

So NO being the chosen one DOES NOT mean that there is no trial. I don't recall anyone ever being the chosen one in ANY example, where there wasn't some obstacle, or trial to overcome. And if there was, THAT is bad writing.

THIS makes sense to me, if it doesn't make sense to you, and you think its bad writing, then there's nothing more that needs to be said.
 

Mareepy

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1, To make a Matrix movie reference, and whether you believe Neo was the chosen one or not. Neo still had to work hard and go through trials to end up being one of the strongest humans within the Matrix. He was chosen and yet he still had to go through a trial.

You don't get it, being the chosen one doesn't mean you're automatically are capable of anything and everything all of a sudden. THAT is bad writing.

Being the chosen one just means that you are the most likely one to succeed at whatever goal or quest. Let's assume that Goku from Dragonball Z is the chosen one. Look at all the trials and hardships he had to go through to get where he is now.

This isn't just something that is handed to you.

Greninja is the chosen one, to make a biological reference, just means that Greninja has the DNA capable of going through this transformation, something that most Greninja lack.

You even ignored my point. Some people get rare incurable diseases, because they are genetically predisposed to getting them, that's them being the chosen one. Etc, etc, etc.

But just because Greninja possessed the DNA to transform does not mean it can automatically transform and master the form, changing into a form does not equal mastering the form. Even in Dragonball Z, there was Super Sayian, and then Gohan and Goku mastered these states, so as to be in that state feels natural, like they're always in that state. But it just wasn't handed to them, they trained to be in that state, so much that they even forgot they were in that state.
You do realize that stats and move are different things right? Lets say Neo, I can always argue that he had better stats as he is the chosen one, but he is trying to learn the abilities. Using Final Fantasy as an example, yes you could have a character with 255 Magic stat and knows only Fira and not Firaga. In DBZ, Super Saiyan has several levels, and it is not a specially for Goku thing. People can achieve it as long as they work hard enough. All the examples you have given is completely different from Ash-Greninja.

To apply this to Pokemon and to counter your argument of what was said "Ash-Greninja is the form that Greninja takes when the bond between it and Ash is raised to the limit

You can reach that level, and not master it. To make another quick analogy. Let's use weightlifting as an example. You may be able to deadlift 300 pounds, at least once. It takes further training, and mastering to deadlift 300 pounds more than once.

To explain what happened in this episode, is at the time, at the very moment, Ash and Greninja were in sync, their bond had reached the limit. But it was a very off moment. Just like playing a very difficult time based video game, sometimes you do okay, sometimes you suck. Just watch normal youtubers playing difficult Mario Maker levels. Sometimes they get very far, but even when they make it far, sometimes they can't pass the first part of the level.

The trial, that Ash and Greninja will likely face, is to master that state, so they can achieve that form whenever they want.

Undoubtedly the very next time we deal with Ash Greninja, Ash and Greninja won't know what happen, they won't be able to replicate what happened in this episode. They will try, and maybe sometimes they will succeed but it won't be a state that they just achieve with FULL control. It is a state that needs to be mastered.

Even more real life examples. Sometimes even doing the same thing (as far as you are aware) can create different results. Sometimes though its the little things that cost you. Sometimes when you cook brownies they are really good. When you think you did the exact same thing, the brownies end up being burnt.

So it was never impossible for Greninja to randomly become Ash Greninja. What the point of this, is that Ash Greninja isn't a state easily accessible and not a state that is fully mastered.

The problem Ash and Greninja face is TRYING to replicate those results and likely failing to do so, until they go through some stuff, and then they will achieve that perfected state.

So NO being the chosen one DOES NOT mean that there is no trial. I don't recall anyone ever being the chosen one in ANY example, where there wasn't some obstacle, or trial to overcome. And if there was, THAT is bad writing.

THIS makes sense to me, if it doesn't make sense to you, and you think its bad writing, then there's nothing more that needs to be said.
SO Ash and Greninja was at the peak of their bond at this moment and then suddenly they are now not so close to each other again? OH cool. Your example doesn't even make sense. A weightlifter cannot do it consistently because of their muscle and adrenaline does not react the same every time. A Mario Maker player' muscle reflex always have inconsistency. However a bond between two entities are different things. If their bond relied on an instance that they have the same thinking, then I wouldn't even call it friendship, I call it temporary alliance. If this bond really relied on this, then this bond is the weakest I have ever seen between Ash and his Pokemon, as Ash and his Pokemon are known for their ability to have the same dream, same goal.
 

dman_dustin

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SO Ash and Greninja was at the peak of their bond at this moment and then suddenly they are now not so close to each other again? OH cool.
Your example doesn't even make sense. A weightlifter cannot do it consistently because of their muscle and adrenaline does not react the same every time. A Mario Maker player' muscle reflex always have inconsistency. However a bond between two entities are different things. If their bond relied on an instance that they have the same thinking, then I wouldn't even call it friendship, I call it temporary alliance. If this bond really relied on this, then this bond is the weakest I have ever seen between Ash and his Pokemon, as Ash and his Pokemon are known for their ability to have the same dream, same goal.
It's not that simple. The reason it worked here was because it "just happened" it wasn't forced, and it wasn't expected and because of that the two were in perfect sync. Hell Ash and Pikachu fought in the Nimbasa Gym

Trying it again, most likely, Ash as well as likely Greninja are trying to force it to happen again, because they are trying to force it, will likely cause their bond to not be too great.

For example, you can have the best bond you have with your friend, but if you punch your friend or your friend sleeps with your significant other, your bond is going to decrease or vary in some way, so it isn't stuck at a permanent level.

Bonds are not permanently stuck at some level. I realize my examples were extreme, but it does make sense that trying to recreate, trying to force Greninja to "synchro evolve" is likely going to cause obvious tension between Ash and Greninja, and their lack of bonds raised to the limit is not going to reach that, and thus Greninja won't be able to become Ash Greninja.

What they need to learn, is what happened in this episode. They'll need to realize that this form cannot be forced, and that it needs to be natural. The obstacles and trials they will face will allow them to fully put their trust in each other, therefore Ash Greninja will happen when they are both in sync, once they can master that aspect, then Greninja might be able to synchro evolve on command, and fully use its new form to its fullest, thus at that stage, they will have mastered the Ash Greninja form.

Edit: Before you argue, remember Ash has had "moments" with his Pokemon where the bond between the two weren't that "high level" stable.
 

Mareepy

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It's not that simple. The reason it worked here was because it "just happened" it wasn't forced, and it wasn't expected and because of that the two were in perfect sync. Hell Ash and Pikachu fought in the Nimbasa Gym

Trying it again, most likely, Ash as well as likely Greninja are trying to force it to happen again, because they are trying to force it, will likely cause their bond to not be too great.

For example, you can have the best bond you have with your friend, but if you punch your friend or your friend sleeps with your significant other, your bond is going to decrease or vary in some way, so it isn't stuck at a permanent level.

Bonds are not permanently stuck at some level. I realize my examples were extreme, but it does make sense that trying to recreate, trying to force Greninja to "synchro evolve" is likely going to cause obvious tension between Ash and Greninja, and their lack of bonds raised to the limit is not going to reach that, and thus Greninja won't be able to become Ash Greninja.

What they need to learn, is what happened in this episode. They'll need to realize that this form cannot be forced, and that it needs to be natural. The obstacles and trials they will face will allow them to fully put their trust in each other, therefore Ash Greninja will happen when they are both in sync, once they can master that aspect, then Greninja might be able to synchro evolve on command, and fully use its new form to its fullest, thus at that stage, they will have mastered the Ash Greninja form.

Edit: Before you argue, remember Ash has had "moments" with his Pokemon where the bond between the two weren't that "high level" stable.
So to summarize what you said, it is the following.

1. Ash and Greninja suddenly able to do it just because plot demands. Just like how me and Hilbert commented.

2. Ash and Greninja will start to force it happen just because they can't stand the sudden loss of raw power that is never been there at the first place. And then they will face trial in their attempt to force it happen. What is this writing again? This doesn't sound like Ash at all, and I doubt it sounds like Greninja either.

3. Ash and his Pokemon's bond isn't 'high level' stable. So what? Does this even matter here? Will any conflict happen between the two before the next attempt happen? The bond will never be at a permanent level if somethings happen of course. But WILL anything happen? I think you know this better than me, the next attempt will be a failure without concrete reason. Such is the way of the show. And the funny stuff is, how is trying to recreate it going to make any tension between the two? Didn't the two both wanted to become stronger? Even if it caused stress, which in Ash's case he certainly will not put all the stress on Greninja, if any stress they are likely to put it on themselves. Then how did it even cause tension between them? This is not making any sense!

I think Ash and Greninja will try to recreate it a few times at most just to know how it happened, and then just let it slide. I mean I never saw Ash putting a lot of stress on his Pokemon before. So if it failed by then, Ash will not be putting any blame on Greninja from what I know. And if Greninja put any blame on Ash, then it proves my statement about the bond between the two is weak. The script just looks blatantly bad either way it goes.
 
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dman_dustin

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1. Ash and Greninja suddenly able to do it just because plot demands. Just like how me and Hilbert commented.
No, it happened because in the moment they were BOTH in sync, and in the moment their bond was at its limit. AT THE TIME it happened..

2. Ash and Greninja will start to force it happen just because they can't stand the sudden loss of raw power that is never been there at the first place. And then they will face trial in their attempt to force it happen. What is this writing again? This doesn't sound like Ash at all, and I doubt it sounds like Greninja either
No, they try to force it to happen, because they want it to happen. Imagine for a moment that you can teleport. When you did it the first time you were successful because in the moment all the conditions fit, and you were able to teleport to safely, HOWEVER, you do not have control over teleportation. So the next time you try to force yourself to teleport, but you end up getting stuck in a wall. Or you end up crapping your pants, one of the two.

When you force something, therefore it isn't natural, and this form change is supposed to be natural, thus they will fail because they don't understand the mechanics of the new form change.

It's like Pokemon that evolve by stone. Your first Pikachu evolves into Raichu through an evolutionary stone, but no matter how much you try to shove the fire stone down your second Pikachu's throat, it isn't going to evolve. You don't realize the mechanics of stone evolution and the reason your 2nd Pikachu won't evolve is because your using the WRONG stone, aka the wrong method.

Because both Ash and Greninja likely have NO idea what just happened, they are obviously going to fail because they don't understand what they have to do.

I've seen quite a few anime or cartoons where a person was able to pull off a technique, that they can't explain it, and when they try to force it to happen again, they just fail at it.

Biggest example I can currently think of, is Bumi from Legend of Korra activated the power to air bend, he did it the first time unexpectedly, and no matter how much he forced the circumstances he couldn't do it again, until of course there was another "unexpected" circumstance where he activated again. It was only through practice that he was able to air bend on "command" though I don't remember how successful he was.

3. Ash and his Pokemon's bond isn't 'high level' stable. So what? Does this even matter here? Will any conflict happen between the two before the next attempt happen? The bond will never be at a permanent level if somethings happen of course. But WILL anything happen? I think you know this better than me, the next attempt will be a failure without concrete reason.
Such is the way of the show. And the funny stuff is, how is trying to recreate it going to make any tension between the two? Didn't the two both wanted to become stronger? Even if it caused stress, which in Ash's case he certainly will not put all the stress on Greninja, if any stress they are likely to put it on themselves. Then how did it even cause tension between them? This is not making any sense!
The reason the tension happens between the two while trying to force it, is going to cause Greninja to fail.

Failing to become Ash Greninja will frustrate both Ash and Greninja causing problems in their relationship. Frustration is a very aggravating thing, and it does cause the bond between two to falter in and at the moment.

Thus frustration will cause a rift to occur between the two, to the point where Ash will be depressed and Greninja will "run away" if we go by the opening, when they come together, and get over their petty squabble or their frustrations of not being able to activate the form, their bond will be reinforced and therefore they should be able to get Greninja to Ash Greninja.

I'm not really sure how this isn't making sense though, it could just be because of my perspective but it makes sense to me. If you still can't understand my point of view, then I have nothing else to say, so this is my last post on the subject, because there just isn't any more I can say on the subject.

If you don't get it, you just don't get it.
 

Mareepy

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No, it happened because in the moment they were BOTH in sync, and in the moment their bond was at its limit. AT THE TIME it happened..

No, they try to force it to happen, because they want it to happen. Imagine for a moment that you can teleport. When you did it the first time you were successful because in the moment all the conditions fit, and you were able to teleport to safely, HOWEVER, you do not have control over teleportation. So the next time you try to force yourself to teleport, but you end up getting stuck in a wall. Or you end up crapping your pants, one of the two.

When you force something, therefore it isn't natural, and this form change is supposed to be natural, thus they will fail because they don't understand the mechanics of the new form change.

It's like Pokemon that evolve by stone. Your first Pikachu evolves into Raichu through an evolutionary stone, but no matter how much you try to shove the fire stone down your second Pikachu's throat, it isn't going to evolve. You don't realize the mechanics of stone evolution and the reason your 2nd Pikachu won't evolve is because your using the WRONG stone, aka the wrong method.

Because both Ash and Greninja likely have NO idea what just happened, they are obviously going to fail because they don't understand what they have to do.
You kept saying it happened because it is the moment. Wait... why this moment again? Oh the freaking plot says so. Their bond suddenly hit the peak for a limited amount of time as plot demands. What else did Ash and Greninja ever do in this episode? What interaction between them peaked the bond? Which interaction exactly? Whatever they have done in this episode is what Ash regularly does.

So both of them have no idea how it happened but decided to force it happen blindly and make sure it goes that far until tension broke out between the two. Well done m8, gr8 writing, I r8 8/8. Out of character for Ash and does not make any sense.

I've seen quite a few anime or cartoons where a person was able to pull off a technique, that they can't explain it, and when they try to force it to happen again, they just fail at it.

Biggest example I can currently think of, is Bumi from Legend of Korra activated the power to air bend, he did it the first time unexpectedly, and no matter how much he forced the circumstances he couldn't do it again, until of course there was another "unexpected" circumstance where he activated again. It was only through practice that he was able to air bend on "command" though I don't remember how successful he was.

Failing to become Ash Greninja will frustrate both Ash and Greninja causing problems in their relationship. Frustration is a very aggravating thing, and it does cause the bond between two to falter in and at the moment.

Thus frustration will cause a rift to occur between the two, to the point where Ash will be depressed and Greninja will "run away" if we go by the opening, when they come together, and get over their petty squabble or their frustrations of not being able to activate the form, their bond will be reinforced and therefore they should be able to get Greninja to Ash Greninja.

I'm not really sure how this isn't making sense though, it could just be because of my perspective but it makes sense to me. If you still can't understand my point of view, then I have nothing else to say, so this is my last post on the subject, because there just isn't any more I can say on the subject.

If you don't get it, you just don't get it.
The last quote right back at ya. They will be trying to recreate it until it frustrates them? You don't get it, this is not Paul here, Ash will not lash out his frustration at Greninja, and if Greninja do so to Ash, how is their bond at any point, even close to the peak? When one keeps the frustration and stress on themselves, no conflict is going to happen. If Ash and Greninja did put blames on each other, how is their relationship, at any point, close to the peak? Now can you answer me this?
 

dman_dustin

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You kept saying it happened because it is the moment. Wait... why this moment again? Oh the freaking plot says so.
Only if you honestly believe that Ash's Greninja wasn't strong enough which was confirmed false when water shuriken hit Bisharp which is the most any damage was dealt to Bisharp and it hurt. The Ash Greninja was just a bonus extra and a taste for the future, it wasn't important to the plot.

Their bond suddenly hit the peak for a limited amount of time as plot demands. What else did Ash and Greninja ever do in this episode? What interaction between them peaked the bond? Which interaction exactly? Whatever they have done in this episode is what Ash regularly does.
They were battling in sync, and just fighting, trusting each other, NOT TRYING TO FORCE GRENINJA to change.

Trying to understand what happened, and wanting Greninja to change is FORCING the situation, something that DID NOT happen here.

So both of them have no idea how it happened but decided to force it happen blindly and make sure it goes that far until tension broke out between the two. Well done m8, gr8 writing, I r8 8/8. Out of character for Ash and does not make any sense.
You clearly haven't seen Pokemon. Ash does get frustrated and HAS taken it out on his Pokemon. Bayleef and Gligar to name a few. And he has also taken it out on his friends, such as when he lost to Nurse Joy's Chansey in the battle frontier. So no its not out of character.



They will be trying to recreate it until it frustrates them? You don't get it, this is not Paul here,
Paul was never about frustration, well by never, I mean he wasn't motivated by his frustration. He was motivated by sheer disappointment and lack of faith in himself and his Pokemon.

The only real time I ever remember Paul being frustrated was against Brandon, and that unlike what we've seen with Ash was heartbreaking.

Ash will not lash out his frustration at Greninja, and if Greninja do so to Ash, how is their bond at any point, even close to the peak?
Why do you believe that a bond between two people, two Pokemon, trainer and Pokemon is at a permanent level? A bond should be like a meter that is filled that it can remain stagnant at the peak, but if something is introduced it may lower the meter.

For example in games, let's assume that the bond is the happiness meter, and your Pokemon and yourself are at the maximum level. You can change that by treating your Pokemon badly. Healing with bitter items, have it lose all the time etc, etc.

True Ash won't do something like that. But consider frustration over something new, as one of those examples.

When one keeps the frustration and stress on themselves, no conflict is going to happen. If Ash and Greninja did put blames on each other, how is their relationship, at any point, close to the peak? Now can you answer me this?
Exactly my point. This is a new situation, a new conflict, something neither Greninja nor Ash has ever dealt with.

Frustrations over not being able to activate this form will KEEP them from their bond from being at the limit. Therefore that will be the obstacle and trial they will face. When they learn to fully trust each other, something that will be question when they try to force the change into happening, when they fully trust each other, then the transformation will happen.

But let me put it like this, EVEN if they do trust each other, if they believe that to transform they need to be at the peak of everything, seeds of doubt will be put into their minds.

For Greninja it trusts Ash, but does it believe Ash trusts it or believes in it, and vice versa for Ash. That nagging thought will likely be the cause of them failing to perform this transformation.
 

Mareepy

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Only if you honestly believe that Ash's Greninja wasn't strong enough which was confirmed false when water shuriken hit Bisharp which is the most any damage was dealt to Bisharp and it hurt. The Ash Greninja was just a bonus extra and a taste for the future, it wasn't important to the plot.

They were battling in sync, and just fighting, trusting each other, NOT TRYING TO FORCE GRENINJA to change.

Trying to understand what happened, and wanting Greninja to change is FORCING the situation, something that DID NOT happen here.
This is exactly my point, 'They were battling in sync' is all but an excuse, Ash is battling like he always did, there is absolutely nothing different from what he did every single battle. The 'in sync movement' is nothing but as plot demands. There is nothing indicating anything will happen. They just 'suddenly do the same thing' or 'suddenly in sync'.

You clearly haven't seen Pokemon. Ash does get frustrated and HAS taken it out on his Pokemon. Bayleef and Gligar to name a few. And he has also taken it out on his friends, such as when he lost to Nurse Joy's Chansey in the battle frontier. So no its not out of character.

Paul was never about frustration, well by never, I mean he wasn't motivated by his frustration. He was motivated by sheer disappointment and lack of faith in himself and his Pokemon.

The only real time I ever remember Paul being frustrated was against Brandon, and that unlike what we've seen with Ash was heartbreaking.
So? I have been watching since the OS. I can say that those episode that you named are the exceptions, the writers have their inconsistencies and I can say that 3/700++ episodes means it highly suggest that Ash is in fact out of character in those scripts. We have even seen Ash becoming a noob for a whole region, 3/700++ means they did a rather great job already.

Why do you believe that a bond between two people, two Pokemon, trainer and Pokemon is at a permanent level? A bond should be like a meter that is filled that it can remain stagnant at the peak, but if something is introduced it may lower the meter.

For example in games, let's assume that the bond is the happiness meter, and your Pokemon and yourself are at the maximum level. You can change that by treating your Pokemon badly. Healing with bitter items, have it lose all the time etc, etc.

True Ash won't do something like that. But consider frustration over something new, as one of those examples.

Exactly my point. This is a new situation, a new conflict, something neither Greninja nor Ash has ever dealt with.

Frustrations over not being able to activate this form will KEEP them from their bond from being at the limit. Therefore that will be the obstacle and trial they will face. When they learn to fully trust each other, something that will be question when they try to force the change into happening, when they fully trust each other, then the transformation will happen.

But let me put it like this, EVEN if they do trust each other, if they believe that to transform they need to be at the peak of everything, seeds of doubt will be put into their minds.

For Greninja it trusts Ash, but does it believe Ash trusts it or believes in it, and vice versa for Ash. That nagging thought will likely be the cause of them failing to perform this transformation.
............. You are just dodging my point. So what if bonds are not permanently at the peak? Even if they are not at the very peak, the bond atleast stays at a high level right?

Two entities having their bond at high levels will not be putting blame on each other over matters like this. With this if you don't understand, I close my case. If their bond is ever near to the peak, no tension will be caused over this trivial matter, no matter if the problem is new to them or not. The problem with this is always this bonus raw power is just a bonus and it is a very very trivial matter. If Ash and Greninja at any point got frustrated or put the blame on each other, their bond, is nowhere near the peak. You have no understanding that how 'friends' differ from 'the absolute BFF'. Friendship is built on understanding, and the more you understand each other the less conflicts will happen. The 'peak' of course is the highest level of understanding, but anywhere slightly lower than that doesn't make two people broke out serious tension over trivial matter. You kept forgetting that to achieve the 'peak' they must be close to it, and when they are close to it, such tension doesn't make the slightest sense.

So to summarize it, even if the bond doesn't stay permanent at the peak, it wouldn't drop drastically just after the battle. If their bond is still somewhere close to the peak, their understanding should make them have no tension over such trivial matter as they aren't dependent on the extra raw power either. If any tension happened, it means their bond, is nowhere close to the peak at the first place, then how did they trigger it the first time? See? Nothing makes sense.
 

Max1996

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With recent Pokemon Fan articles confirming that 4 trials await Ash and Greninja (4 battles with powerful opponents), it's looking like @dman_dustin was more on the right track.
 
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