- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
- Messages
- 5,888
- Reaction score
- 3,552
When he dex'd it (which I think was immediately post-evo and before he commanded any moves) water shuriken was mentioned as Geckouga's movez.
Did he? I'm not sure how I missed that, but ok.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
When he dex'd it (which I think was immediately post-evo and before he commanded any moves) water shuriken was mentioned as Geckouga's movez.
I remember you talking about something similar.Lol dman dustin do you enjoy trying to analyze every aspect of my opinion?
I remember you talking about something similar.
Do you realize on Bulbapedia I don't typically notice the user names, so I think it's egotistical and rather insulting of you to think I'm targeting you specifically rather than discussing what you wrote.
I don't care who you are. Hilbert, Mareepy, Dogasu, dman_dustin, a moderator, I would've discussed your post regardless.
I've always believed that Ash Greninja is a form to be MASTERED not ACHIEVED after some random trail or training.
It happened in this episode like I said the Ninja Village created their "religion" around Hero Greninja, it's not anyone's fault but the believers if they misinterpreted it as a thing that needs to be achieved rather than mastered. Just because it happened to someone else, doesn't mean that other person knows everything.
The future trial with Ash and Greninja will be what helps Greninja master its new form. It never made sense for a new form to activate as it achieved something through training and trial, its something that someone should have access to, but just like some instances of MEGA EVOLUTION like Korrina, you master the form change.
And also for all we know Hero Greninja might actually be Ash Greninja, in that Ash travels through time with his Ash Greninja and that's how the legend begins.
Ok, so its a form to be mastered and only Ash has a chance to try master it because they are special.... And that makes even having a trial pointless as they are the only one that will eventually succeed. that totally didn't change anything I said in the previous post.
And did I say about a random trial? You don't seem to understand one thing. Trial does not need to be an examination, it can simply be conflicts that happen that tests their bond, like how I thought it was going to be Ash's struggle against Shota and Alan and Greninja's dislike of losing can cause a conflict between them. To overcome a problem between them can be a trial. It doesn't need to be like 'Go through a dungeon' or 'Obtain an item'. What I hoped was Ash and Greninja finally able to understand each other to the fullest and then trigger Ash-Greninja.
And not just that, it doesn't change the fact that if it is a form to be mastered, then someone might have achieved it, especially a strong Ninja like Ippei. You just said the previous Hero Greninja might not know about how the form change actually happened, then it means the previous Hero Greninja achieved it without knowing how. Now I would like to ask, watching this episode, how good is Ippei? He is good, and seems to be a trainer atleast on par with Ash. How did he not achieve it first?
And once again, if it is simply because Ash and Greninja is the chosen one, no trial is needed as it is pointless in every angle.
Okay did you even see the Korrina Arc with Lucario, where she could mega evolve her Lucario but Lucario went absolute crazy because Lucario couldn't fully control its new found power. And Lucario was out of sync with it new found strength?
Lucario needed to master its new power, it needed to master it.
Just like Ash and Greninja, the reason Greninja was able to change was because at the very moment in battle they were in sync, so we got a "taste" of what Ash Greninja is capable and to show us off the form change. But isn't a perfected form. It's like any sort of sport. Like Football, Billards, Archery, you may be able to pull off some amazing things the first time
And you keep missing my point, Greninja ITSELF is special. NOT every human is born with the same exact qualities. Not every Pokemon in the games have the same ability. Some Pikachu have lightning rod, some Pikachu have static.
The reason that Ippei and Sanpei canNOT synchro evolve their Greninja so there can be Ippei Greninja and Sanpei Greninja is because their Greninja wasn't BORN with the same quality/characteristic/ability to synchro evolve. Only Ash's Greninja was confirmed.
I'm pretty sure the very fact that this Hero Greninja is RARE and had only happened a 100 years prior should've been ENOUGH to clue in, JUST how RARE this phenmenon. This isn't something that happens TO everyone and their Greninja. Or even Staraptor or Heatmor if they also were different.
It's highly unlikely that in the off chance we get Synchro Staraptor, that Ash's Staraptor would change into said change form.
But let's imagine for a moment that I'm wrong. That maybe all relatable Pokemon that can change form like Greninja, could change like Greninja.
So then why was Ash able to do it first? Well why was there a 12 year old girl who knew about computers far more than me when I was an adult, that if she was still alive, she'd still know far more about computers. Or how about a piano prodigy? How can they be so naturally gifted, but I have to learn the hard way. That's how life is, and that's likely how life is in the Pokemon world, there are just some naturally gifted Pokemon and others have to learn to be gifted or skilled.
Given every single thing that can be inferred from the episodes however, Hero Greninja, Synchro Grenina whatever you want to call it, is NOT a common occurence. Very few, Greninja will ever achieve this next form. Maybe when the games come out with this type of evolution, we may see it more commonly.
But maybe Greninja itself the species itself is difficult to change, or maybe if all Greninja can become Hero Greninja, then maybe its a matter of seeing a Greninja capable of naturally doing it, such as Ash's Greninja. You learn by observation. Maybe if the phenomenon was more common, more Pokemon
But when you have a village, who's beliefs and legends are based around a long time ago, an event that happened a long time ago, and there was NOTHING that could be done at that time, no research could be done, so therefore the phenomenon is completely rare.
We do know Ash's Greninja is extremely rare, if not for its personality and characteristics, with what Olympia showed us in the episode before the gym battle. So of course, Ash's Greninja could naturally do what it could do.
It however does not mean that the story was horribly written and rushed, especially right now, when I actually believe that the obstacles and trials that Ash and Greninja will have to overcome will be about mastering the form. Just because Ash and Greninja managed to it once, doesn't mean it will always happen. Which would definitely explain the opening, where Ash could doubt himself because he can't repeat what happened in this episode.
It all makes sense when you consider there's more to it than what happened in this episode, and future storyline/plotlines to come likely revolving around this.
I thought I was already clear enough. You didn't understand my post at all. I already made it clear that a trial is pointless if it is such a rare phenomenon that only Ash's Greninja can undergo. I already repeated this both on the start and the end of my previous post. This is BAD WRITING. No matter how you try to put it, no matter how the 'trial' is written, the 'trial' is totally pointless as the 'chosen one' factor is always in.
Let me make this clear, if it is a form to be mastered, everyone should have an equal chance. If it is the 'special' or chosen one' factor, then why even need a trial? I'll just repeat what I said in a previous post. "The 'Oh dude, you are the chosen one, there is a trial ahead but you can handle it anyways just because you are the chosen one' is one of the WORST writing."
1, To make a Matrix movie reference, and whether you believe Neo was the chosen one or not. Neo still had to work hard and go through trials to end up being one of the strongest humans within the Matrix. He was chosen and yet he still had to go through a trial.
You don't get it, being the chosen one doesn't mean you're automatically are capable of anything and everything all of a sudden. THAT is bad writing.
Being the chosen one just means that you are the most likely one to succeed at whatever goal or quest. Let's assume that Goku from Dragonball Z is the chosen one. Look at all the trials and hardships he had to go through to get where he is now.
This isn't just something that is handed to you.
Greninja is the chosen one, to make a biological reference, just means that Greninja has the DNA capable of going through this transformation, something that most Greninja lack.
You even ignored my point. Some people get rare incurable diseases, because they are genetically predisposed to getting them, that's them being the chosen one. Etc, etc, etc.
But just because Greninja possessed the DNA to transform does not mean it can automatically transform and master the form, changing into a form does not equal mastering the form. Even in Dragonball Z, there was Super Sayian, and then Gohan and Goku mastered these states, so as to be in that state feels natural, like they're always in that state. But it just wasn't handed to them, they trained to be in that state, so much that they even forgot they were in that state.
To apply this to Pokemon and to counter your argument of what was said "Ash-Greninja is the form that Greninja takes when the bond between it and Ash is raised to the limit
You can reach that level, and not master it. To make another quick analogy. Let's use weightlifting as an example. You may be able to deadlift 300 pounds, at least once. It takes further training, and mastering to deadlift 300 pounds more than once.
To explain what happened in this episode, is at the time, at the very moment, Ash and Greninja were in sync, their bond had reached the limit. But it was a very off moment. Just like playing a very difficult time based video game, sometimes you do okay, sometimes you suck. Just watch normal youtubers playing difficult Mario Maker levels. Sometimes they get very far, but even when they make it far, sometimes they can't pass the first part of the level.
The trial, that Ash and Greninja will likely face, is to master that state, so they can achieve that form whenever they want.
Undoubtedly the very next time we deal with Ash Greninja, Ash and Greninja won't know what happen, they won't be able to replicate what happened in this episode. They will try, and maybe sometimes they will succeed but it won't be a state that they just achieve with FULL control. It is a state that needs to be mastered.
Even more real life examples. Sometimes even doing the same thing (as far as you are aware) can create different results. Sometimes though its the little things that cost you. Sometimes when you cook brownies they are really good. When you think you did the exact same thing, the brownies end up being burnt.
So it was never impossible for Greninja to randomly become Ash Greninja. What the point of this, is that Ash Greninja isn't a state easily accessible and not a state that is fully mastered.
The problem Ash and Greninja face is TRYING to replicate those results and likely failing to do so, until they go through some stuff, and then they will achieve that perfected state.
So NO being the chosen one DOES NOT mean that there is no trial. I don't recall anyone ever being the chosen one in ANY example, where there wasn't some obstacle, or trial to overcome. And if there was, THAT is bad writing.
THIS makes sense to me, if it doesn't make sense to you, and you think its bad writing, then there's nothing more that needs to be said.
SO Ash and Greninja was at the peak of their bond at this moment and then suddenly they are now not so close to each other again? OH cool.
Your example doesn't even make sense. A weightlifter cannot do it consistently because of their muscle and adrenaline does not react the same every time. A Mario Maker player' muscle reflex always have inconsistency. However a bond between two entities are different things. If their bond relied on an instance that they have the same thinking, then I wouldn't even call it friendship, I call it temporary alliance. If this bond really relied on this, then this bond is the weakest I have ever seen between Ash and his Pokemon, as Ash and his Pokemon are known for their ability to have the same dream, same goal.
It's not that simple. The reason it worked here was because it "just happened" it wasn't forced, and it wasn't expected and because of that the two were in perfect sync. Hell Ash and Pikachu fought in the Nimbasa Gym
Trying it again, most likely, Ash as well as likely Greninja are trying to force it to happen again, because they are trying to force it, will likely cause their bond to not be too great.
For example, you can have the best bond you have with your friend, but if you punch your friend or your friend sleeps with your significant other, your bond is going to decrease or vary in some way, so it isn't stuck at a permanent level.
Bonds are not permanently stuck at some level. I realize my examples were extreme, but it does make sense that trying to recreate, trying to force Greninja to "synchro evolve" is likely going to cause obvious tension between Ash and Greninja, and their lack of bonds raised to the limit is not going to reach that, and thus Greninja won't be able to become Ash Greninja.
What they need to learn, is what happened in this episode. They'll need to realize that this form cannot be forced, and that it needs to be natural. The obstacles and trials they will face will allow them to fully put their trust in each other, therefore Ash Greninja will happen when they are both in sync, once they can master that aspect, then Greninja might be able to synchro evolve on command, and fully use its new form to its fullest, thus at that stage, they will have mastered the Ash Greninja form.
Edit: Before you argue, remember Ash has had "moments" with his Pokemon where the bond between the two weren't that "high level" stable.
No, it happened because in the moment they were BOTH in sync, and in the moment their bond was at its limit. AT THE TIME it happened..1. Ash and Greninja suddenly able to do it just because plot demands. Just like how me and Hilbert commented.
No, they try to force it to happen, because they want it to happen. Imagine for a moment that you can teleport. When you did it the first time you were successful because in the moment all the conditions fit, and you were able to teleport to safely, HOWEVER, you do not have control over teleportation. So the next time you try to force yourself to teleport, but you end up getting stuck in a wall. Or you end up crapping your pants, one of the two.2. Ash and Greninja will start to force it happen just because they can't stand the sudden loss of raw power that is never been there at the first place. And then they will face trial in their attempt to force it happen. What is this writing again? This doesn't sound like Ash at all, and I doubt it sounds like Greninja either
3. Ash and his Pokemon's bond isn't 'high level' stable. So what? Does this even matter here? Will any conflict happen between the two before the next attempt happen? The bond will never be at a permanent level if somethings happen of course. But WILL anything happen? I think you know this better than me, the next attempt will be a failure without concrete reason.
Such is the way of the show. And the funny stuff is, how is trying to recreate it going to make any tension between the two? Didn't the two both wanted to become stronger? Even if it caused stress, which in Ash's case he certainly will not put all the stress on Greninja, if any stress they are likely to put it on themselves. Then how did it even cause tension between them? This is not making any sense!
No, it happened because in the moment they were BOTH in sync, and in the moment their bond was at its limit. AT THE TIME it happened..
No, they try to force it to happen, because they want it to happen. Imagine for a moment that you can teleport. When you did it the first time you were successful because in the moment all the conditions fit, and you were able to teleport to safely, HOWEVER, you do not have control over teleportation. So the next time you try to force yourself to teleport, but you end up getting stuck in a wall. Or you end up crapping your pants, one of the two.
When you force something, therefore it isn't natural, and this form change is supposed to be natural, thus they will fail because they don't understand the mechanics of the new form change.
It's like Pokemon that evolve by stone. Your first Pikachu evolves into Raichu through an evolutionary stone, but no matter how much you try to shove the fire stone down your second Pikachu's throat, it isn't going to evolve. You don't realize the mechanics of stone evolution and the reason your 2nd Pikachu won't evolve is because your using the WRONG stone, aka the wrong method.
Because both Ash and Greninja likely have NO idea what just happened, they are obviously going to fail because they don't understand what they have to do.
I've seen quite a few anime or cartoons where a person was able to pull off a technique, that they can't explain it, and when they try to force it to happen again, they just fail at it.
Biggest example I can currently think of, is Bumi from Legend of Korra activated the power to air bend, he did it the first time unexpectedly, and no matter how much he forced the circumstances he couldn't do it again, until of course there was another "unexpected" circumstance where he activated again. It was only through practice that he was able to air bend on "command" though I don't remember how successful he was.
Failing to become Ash Greninja will frustrate both Ash and Greninja causing problems in their relationship. Frustration is a very aggravating thing, and it does cause the bond between two to falter in and at the moment.
Thus frustration will cause a rift to occur between the two, to the point where Ash will be depressed and Greninja will "run away" if we go by the opening, when they come together, and get over their petty squabble or their frustrations of not being able to activate the form, their bond will be reinforced and therefore they should be able to get Greninja to Ash Greninja.
I'm not really sure how this isn't making sense though, it could just be because of my perspective but it makes sense to me. If you still can't understand my point of view, then I have nothing else to say, so this is my last post on the subject, because there just isn't any more I can say on the subject.
If you don't get it, you just don't get it.
Only if you honestly believe that Ash's Greninja wasn't strong enough which was confirmed false when water shuriken hit Bisharp which is the most any damage was dealt to Bisharp and it hurt. The Ash Greninja was just a bonus extra and a taste for the future, it wasn't important to the plot.You kept saying it happened because it is the moment. Wait... why this moment again? Oh the freaking plot says so.
They were battling in sync, and just fighting, trusting each other, NOT TRYING TO FORCE GRENINJA to change.Their bond suddenly hit the peak for a limited amount of time as plot demands. What else did Ash and Greninja ever do in this episode? What interaction between them peaked the bond? Which interaction exactly? Whatever they have done in this episode is what Ash regularly does.
You clearly haven't seen Pokemon. Ash does get frustrated and HAS taken it out on his Pokemon. Bayleef and Gligar to name a few. And he has also taken it out on his friends, such as when he lost to Nurse Joy's Chansey in the battle frontier. So no its not out of character.So both of them have no idea how it happened but decided to force it happen blindly and make sure it goes that far until tension broke out between the two. Well done m8, gr8 writing, I r8 8/8. Out of character for Ash and does not make any sense.
Paul was never about frustration, well by never, I mean he wasn't motivated by his frustration. He was motivated by sheer disappointment and lack of faith in himself and his Pokemon.They will be trying to recreate it until it frustrates them? You don't get it, this is not Paul here,
Why do you believe that a bond between two people, two Pokemon, trainer and Pokemon is at a permanent level? A bond should be like a meter that is filled that it can remain stagnant at the peak, but if something is introduced it may lower the meter.Ash will not lash out his frustration at Greninja, and if Greninja do so to Ash, how is their bond at any point, even close to the peak?
When one keeps the frustration and stress on themselves, no conflict is going to happen. If Ash and Greninja did put blames on each other, how is their relationship, at any point, close to the peak? Now can you answer me this?
Only if you honestly believe that Ash's Greninja wasn't strong enough which was confirmed false when water shuriken hit Bisharp which is the most any damage was dealt to Bisharp and it hurt. The Ash Greninja was just a bonus extra and a taste for the future, it wasn't important to the plot.
They were battling in sync, and just fighting, trusting each other, NOT TRYING TO FORCE GRENINJA to change.
Trying to understand what happened, and wanting Greninja to change is FORCING the situation, something that DID NOT happen here.
You clearly haven't seen Pokemon. Ash does get frustrated and HAS taken it out on his Pokemon. Bayleef and Gligar to name a few. And he has also taken it out on his friends, such as when he lost to Nurse Joy's Chansey in the battle frontier. So no its not out of character.
Paul was never about frustration, well by never, I mean he wasn't motivated by his frustration. He was motivated by sheer disappointment and lack of faith in himself and his Pokemon.
The only real time I ever remember Paul being frustrated was against Brandon, and that unlike what we've seen with Ash was heartbreaking.
Why do you believe that a bond between two people, two Pokemon, trainer and Pokemon is at a permanent level? A bond should be like a meter that is filled that it can remain stagnant at the peak, but if something is introduced it may lower the meter.
For example in games, let's assume that the bond is the happiness meter, and your Pokemon and yourself are at the maximum level. You can change that by treating your Pokemon badly. Healing with bitter items, have it lose all the time etc, etc.
True Ash won't do something like that. But consider frustration over something new, as one of those examples.
Exactly my point. This is a new situation, a new conflict, something neither Greninja nor Ash has ever dealt with.
Frustrations over not being able to activate this form will KEEP them from their bond from being at the limit. Therefore that will be the obstacle and trial they will face. When they learn to fully trust each other, something that will be question when they try to force the change into happening, when they fully trust each other, then the transformation will happen.
But let me put it like this, EVEN if they do trust each other, if they believe that to transform they need to be at the peak of everything, seeds of doubt will be put into their minds.
For Greninja it trusts Ash, but does it believe Ash trusts it or believes in it, and vice versa for Ash. That nagging thought will likely be the cause of them failing to perform this transformation.