Review XY131: Kalos League Victory! Satoshi's Ultimate Match!!

[GeminiAngel87]

To be honest even if Alain wanted to give Ash the trophy, Ash won't take it. he's the type that would want to earn it with his own power. that said there's no doubt Alain will feel guilty after everything that will happen and his part in it. I believe he is a good person who just happened to get mixed up and manipulated by a bats**t crazy red head that thinks he knows whats best. honestly I feel bad for Alain.

I did want and hoped that Ash would win but when Greninja went down all I felt was disappointment at first but then I felt more prouder then anything of Ash because he made top 2 and that is an awesome achievement and I am now happy with the outcome. but this is just my opinion and I respect the fans that are upset as it is their right; I just think everyone needs to chill because it's not the end of the world.

 

[Desdar300]

この流れで | はないちもんめ日記兼掲示板 | 10586
Just another staff member given his thoughts.

 

[Shadao]

To be honest even if Alain wanted to give Ash the trophy, Ash won't take it. he's the type that would want to earn it with his own power.

Oh, that no one can disagree with. Ash wouldn't want to accept any trophies or badges without a fight. And considering that Ash-Greninja is in need of a little payback against Mega Charizard X, a rematch is all but assured.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

この流れで | はないちもんめ日記兼掲示板 | 10586
Just another staff member given his thoughts.

Translation, please? Also, going by the URL, it looks like this is from Iwane.

 

[Desdar300]

Translation, please? Also, going by the URL, it looks like this is from Iwane.

He basically says that he personally feels Ash should've won.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

He basically says that he personally feels Ash should've won.

Oh, alright! Thanks! So now we have Ohashi and Iwane saying that Ash should have won. It kinda really says something about this disaster if someone as notable as Iwane says this.

 

[Desdar300]

Oh, alright! Thanks! So now we have Ohashi and Iwane saying that Ash should have won. It kinda really says something about this disaster if someone as notable as Iwane says this.

it sucks too because fans are bashing him and he had nothing to do with this episode

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

it sucks too because fans are bashing him and he had nothing to do with this episode

Yeah, I heard people have been leaving him angry rants. He wasn't in charge of animating this episode. Its the same person who had Ash losing to Cameron, Viola, and Sawyer. And they animated the episode when Ash released Goodra.

 

[Pokefan19]

Desperate or not... I'm surprised the sudden coping mechanism is assume Alain will forfeit his trophy to Ash. I can't blame people for getting angry, but what heinous crime has Alain committed outside of gathering Mega Energy? That's like saying you have to assume whatever task you complete for someone that just happens to perk your interest or regards something you're already trying to accomplish has evil intentions. And that also assumes Alain is a heartless monster who only cares for himself and will blindly follow whatever is asked of him so long as whoever he cares for is safe. Alain can feel upset all he wants, but winning the league has absolutely nothing to do with his "mission" with Team Flare and it won't tarnish his image unless Lysandre uses his winning the league to his advantage and even then it's not like Alain won't prove that he's not a villain. He won fair and square, he ultimately just was more motivated then Ash in the end.

And on a side note, the animation staff is really weird when it comes to showing damage, the only Pokemon that physically look like it took a pounding because of scuff marks was Pikachu. Every other Pokemon that fainted really didn't seem to have been phased to greatly. Mega Pokemon are notorious for showing lack of physical damage yet do take it. So I do think Ash Greninja did phase Mega Charizard, it just apparently refused to go down, kinda like Pikachu vs Tyranitar and Metagross. Just thought that might clear the air on that little subject

 

[Shadao]

Desperate or not... I'm surprised the sudden coping mechanism is assume Alain will forfeit his trophy to Ash. I can't blame people for getting angry, but what heinous crime has Alain committed outside of gathering Mega Energy? That's like saying you have to assume whatever task you complete for someone that just happens to perk your interest or regards something you're already trying to accomplish has evil intentions. And that also assumes Alain is a heartless monster who only cares for himself and will blindly follow whatever is asked of him so long as whoever he cares for is safe. Alain can feel upset all he wants, but winning the league has absolutely nothing to do with his "mission" with Team Flare and it won't tarnish his image unless Lysandre uses his winning the league to his advantage and even then it's not like Alain won't prove that he's not a villain. He won fair and square, he ultimately just was more motivated then Ash in the end.

Alain was the reason why Z2 was captured in the first place. I think everyone knows that by now. And now we see Z2 destroy an entire city, tortured by Team Flare, the very organization that Alain works for. No matter how many people will try to shift blame, the point still remains that Alain played a part in that particular event and he will most likely regret it in the long run.

No one is saying Alain is maliciously evil. He's misguided and in need of enlightenment from Ash. At worst, he's an anti-villain with good intentions. But it doesn't mean it's not his fault that the destruction of Lumoise City happened.

And of course winning the League has nothing to do with "mission," but it does make Alain look really bad as a champion once folks like Ash and Sycamore uncover his involvement with Team Flare. A champion with a direct association of the criminal organization terrorizing innocent people does not sound appealing, no matter what Alain does to protest his innocence.

And of course, what kind of champion is he when Ash was attacked and captured by Team Flare under his eye?

 

[Pokefan19]

Alain was the reason why Z2 was captured in the first place. I think everyone knows that by now. And now we see Z2 destroy an entire city, tortured by Team Flare, the very organization that Alain works for. No matter how many people will try to shift blame, the point still remains that Alain played a part in that particular event and he will most likely regret it in the long run.

Maybe a rational person questions why a team is attacking a legend, but given Alain's case, being rational wasn't an option. He wasn't gonna risk neglecting his only chance to save Mairin's Chespin. Leverage is a powerful motivator, even if it has questionable means.

No one is saying Alain is maliciously evil. He's misguided and in need of enlightenment from Ash. At worst, he's an anti-villain with good intentions. But it doesn't mean it's not his fault that the destruction of Lumoise City happened.

I don't honestly think Ash is the sole person to give Alain enlightnment considering Lysandre has literally fooled everyone thus far in the show. Alain has eyes, he's capable of seeing someones true colors once they're revealed. I mean he's a really good manipulator.

But even if this was about Alain's quest for power, it's not like he doesn't trust his other Pokemon. The only reason we saw Zard more then anything else is A. Both share the exact same feelings about getting stronger B. He Alain's starter Pokemon C. He's the only Pokemon Alain has a Mega Stone. Anyway we can tell he trusts his other Pokemon vs Ash because he only forced himself to use Charizard after seeing how much of a threat Pikachu was. As for why he seemingly only used Mega Charizard to wreck through the league up to Ash, I pretty much blame that on wanting to keep his team a secret while also sticking to what people were attracted to his character for in the first place. Not to mention the league writing was mehish at best anyway seeing as Ash could have very well done the same with Ash-Greninja and Pikachu.

And of course winning the League has nothing to do with "mission," but it does make Alain look really bad as a champion once folks like Ash and Sycamore uncover his involvement with Team Flare. A champion with a direct association of the criminal organization terrorizing innocent people does not sound appealing, no matter what Alain does to protest his innocence.

Well for starters Alain isn't even the Champion yet, he just won the tournament that allows him to face the Elite 4 and Champion, which he likely would have to do to complete his dream of becoming the best Mega User anyway. And secondly, you can blame previous Champions for failing to stop these organizations at the source before they even become a problem, at least in Alain's case, he'll be there to solve his own shortcomings.

And of course, what kind of champion is he when Ash was attacked and captured by Team Flare under his eye?

If it's anything like the Desructo Disk, then Alain shying away from Ash is probably a clipped transition to increase interest. Even if he does "betray" Ash, it's not in his character to stick to that plan.

 

[Shadao]

Maybe a rational person questions why a team is attacking a legend, but given Alain's case, being rational wasn't an option. He wasn't gonna risk neglecting his only chance to save Mairin's Chespin. Leverage is a powerful motivator, even if it has questionable means.

And thus he is a fool. A desperate fool poisoned by the influence of Team Flare. Doesn't change the fact that it is his fault. And Alain would not shift blame to someone else in regards to this crime.

I don't honestly think Ash is the sole person to give Ash enlightnment considering Lysandre has literally fooled everyone thus far in the show. Alain has eyes, he's capable of seeing someones true colors once they're revealed. I mean he's a really good manipulator.

But even if this was about Alain's quest for power, it's not like he doesn't trust his other Pokemon. The only reason we saw Zard more then anything else is A. Both share the exact same feelings about getting stronger B. He Alain's starter Pokemon C. He's the only Pokemon Alain has a Mega Stone. Anyway we can tell he trusts his other Pokemon vs Ash because he only forced himself to use Charizard after seeing how much of a threat Pikachu was. As for why he seemingly only used Mega Charizard to wreck through the league up to Ash, I pretty much blame that on wanting to keep his team a secret while also sticking to what people were attracted to his character for in the first place. Not to mention the league writing was mehish at best anyway seeing as Ash could have very well done the same with Ash-Greninja and Pikachu.

The enlightenment that Alain needs is not realizing Team Flare is evil. It's to embrace the epiphany that calls to him and one that he ignores. This epiphany only occurs whenever he battles Ash, and it's telling him to enjoy the battle at its fullest and not be too focus on winning the match. That's Alain's problem, implanted by Lysandre himself. The desire to never lose a battle in order to become powerful is a dangerous and self-destructive for any trainer. Ash went into that mindset when he tries to master Ash-Greninja, and he lost horribly. Went into a complete depression after his 8th Gym battle. Alain has yet to suffer defeat in a long time. We do not know how he would handle a loss.

And really, the fool who follows the villain is more foolish than the fools who cannot see behind the facade.

Well for starters Alain isn't even the Champion yet, he just won the tournament that allows him to face the Elite 4 and Champion, which he likely would have to do to complete his dream of becoming the best Mega User anyway. And secondly, you can blame previous Champions for failing to stop these organizations at the source before they even become a problem, at least in Alain's case, he'll be there to solve his own shortcomings.

I see him with the trophy and I see him proclaimed as the winner. By definition, he is the Lumoise Conference Champion. Don't try to move the goalpost. As for your second argument, you completely miss the point. No one is saying that champions have to stop disasters from team organization before they happen. What soils Alain's reputation as champion is that HE contributed to the disaster. The champion who helps an evil organization is worse than a champion who didn't do anything.

If it's anything like the Desructo Disk, then Alain shying away from Ash is probably a clipped transition to increase interest. Even if he does "betray" Ash, it's not in his character to stick to that plan.

How did Alain lose Ash under his watch? Certainly Alain, being the strongest trainer, who have stopped Team Flare from capturing Ash. Certainly he has a Charizard who could destroy anything that Team Flare throws against him (and it's already out). How did he lose Ash to Team Flare? Either he let them kidnap Ash or he's not really strong as he wishes to be.

And of course he wouldn't stick to the plan in the end. But I can you that if, in a moment of weakness, Alain does betray Ash, even for just a few seconds, lots of people will lose sympathy with Alain as a character. And then the demands for him revoking the title Champion grows bigger.

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

This isn't about Ash winning or anything though. We're not talking about the battle or anything. This is about Alain's guilt over his involvment with Team Flare and why he might not feel right holding onto the trophy. Please don't try to start an argument over this.

I wasn't trying to start up anything. Alain would still hold on the trophy regardless of feeling guilty.

Why can't Ash have the trophy? It could be some kind of token from Alain as a form of respect for the match and whatever event related to Ash and Team Flare. The trophy wouldn't commemorate his victory at the League (since it didn't happen), but the bond that ties Alain and Ash together.

Now, Ash accepting the trophy or not is another story, but it would still be a nice and significant gesture from Alain toward the Kanto Trainer.

Ash doesn't deserve the trophy. Ash lost the league. The trophy is for the winner only. Alain earned it fair and square.

 

[Almonds]

Looking at the tweets from the official staff, I feel like there could have been something going on within the writing department that somehow made Ash lose. For all we know, they could have been planning for Ash to win in the first place.

 

[Pokefan19]

Can I just say that I enjoy this? I've been away from a forum for literally 2 days before yesterday and I missed this for some reason.

And thus he is a fool. A desperate fool poisoned by the influence of Team Flare. Doesn't change the fact that it is his fault. And Alain would not shift blame to someone else in regards to this crime.

I can see where you're coming from, honestly I do... but I don't really see what Alain did as being something of ill intent. Okay sure he was easy to manipulate, but I can't see anyone blaming him seeing as literally everyone was lead on to believe Lysandre was a pretty cool guy.

The enlightenment that Alain needs is not realizing Team Flare is evil. It's to embrace the epiphany that calls to him and one that he ignores. This epiphany only occurs whenever he battles Ash, and it's telling him to enjoy the battle at its fullest and not be too focus on winning the match. That's Alain's problem, implanted by Lysandre himself. The desire to never lose a battle in order to become powerful is a dangerous and self-destruction for any trainer. Ash went into that mindset when he tries to master Ash-Greninja, and he lost horribly. Went into a complete depression after his 8th Gym battle. Alain has yet to suffer defeat in a long time. We do not know how he would handle a loss.

Maybe this person is completely wrong, maybe I'm foolish for always seeing it this way, but have a read and see what you think about it, if it doesn't help change some perspective, I'll try to gauge it a little more from what you're telling me
Alain's Side of the Story

And really, the fool who follows the villain is more foolish than the fools who cannot see behind the facade.

That sounds like trust no one but yourself... Alain had no reason to mistrust Lysandre and when that oppurtunity finally arised (Zygarde), he was already in the state of mind that he had to do everything in his power to correct his mistakes and save Chespin and make Mairin happy again.

I see him with the trophy and I see him proclaimed as the winner. By definition, he is the Lumoise Conference Champion. Don't try to move the goalpost. As for your second argument, you completely miss the point. No one is saying that champions have to stop disasters from team organization before they happen. What soils Alain's reputation as champion is that HE contributed to the disaster. The champion who helps an evil organization is worse than a champion who didn't do anything.

It's not exactly a goalpost switch, but okay, yeah he won the tournament and was crowd champion. I've seen sports anologies being thrown around lately (not necessarily here) so I'll look at it like this. Look at the recent SuperBowl XLIX (49 aka Seattle vs New England), well before that actually the AFC Championship's where New England and Tom Brady have been critically acclaimed as cheaters for "Deflatgate" where despite the evidence of tampering and what not, New England's championship title and SuperBowl title have not been revoked and no return of their rings and trophy. Not unlike the real world, which is spiteful and will never regard cheating in any sort of light, this is the Pokemon world, where forgiveness can land you a slap on the wrist. If redemption for Team Flare is coming, it's gonna happen in this arc and it's gonna paint a better picture of the true Alain, not the guy who unintentionally gathered energy for a group of thugs.

How did Alain lose Ash under his watch? Certainly Alain, being the strongest trainer, who have stopped Team Flare from capturing Ash. Certainly he has a Charizard who could destroy anything that Team Flare throws against him (and it's already out). How did he lose Ash to Team Flare? Either he let them kidnap Ash or he's not really strong as he wishes to be.

Based on the preview, Ash really didn't do much himself to prevent his own capture. If it was a sneak attack, neither guy could have prevented what happened.

And of course he wouldn't stick to the plan in the end. But I can you that if, in a moment of weakness, Alain does betray Ash, even for just a few seconds, lots of people will lose sympathy with Alain as a character. And then the demands for him revoking the title Champion grows bigger.

I seriously hate to make this reference due to my stained relationship with the series... but if Sasuke can somehow still be liked despite doing far worst crap then Alain has ever done and can still be well received by the characters in the story, then I see no reason to believe Alain will have any trouble unless people continue to hold a grudge against him for beating Ash in the Kalos League

 

[Keshav]

For those who don't who Iwane is, he is the guy who animated the first part of Ash vs Alain! and Ohashi is the guy who animated Ash vs Sawyer, Semi-finals. The good news is that they are with the fans!
So that means there is something going on between the writers and I think Ash's victory was fixed but something happened that we aren't aware of yet....
IT IS GETTING INTERESTING!

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Also I saw someone translate it and Iwane didn't exactly say Ash should have won, though he DID say something like "From a story stand point, you would think Ash would win."

 

[Shadao]

Can I just say that I enjoy this? I've been away from a forum for literally 2 days before yesterday and I missed this for some reason.

I can see where you're coming from, honestly I do... but I don't really see what Alain did as being something of ill intent. Okay sure he was easy to manipulate, but I can't see anyone blaming him seeing as literally everyone was lead on to believe Lysandre was a pretty cool guy.


Maybe this person is completely wrong, maybe I'm foolish for always seeing it this way, but have a read and see what you think about it, if it doesn't help change some perspective, I'll try to gauge it a little more from what you're telling me
Alain's Side of the Story

An interesting and well-thought out perspective for a character with good intentions. But I recall a similar situation with Ash not too long ago. It was the Wulfric Battle of the 8th Gym. Ash was determine to make Sawyer proud. To show why he is the trainer that Sawyer looks up to...

...And then he lost...badly. Ash has essentially humiliated himself in front of his own protege, made worse when you consider that he just recently lost to that same protege not too long ago. Sawyer was disappointed, but knows that Ash will recover eventually. Meanwhile, Ash went into a state of depression that only invokes silence. He not only failed Sawyer, he failed himself and Greninja. Only when he remembers why he wanted to be a Pokémon Trainer did he make amends and reforge his bond with Greninja. And that's how he became the trainer that Sawyer respectfully lost to in the League. He has passed his test. Alain did not. He still has that dangerous mindset of never losing. Ignored his epiphany for that. I can see his well-meaning reason to win, but he's is not worthy yet.

And really, Mairin won't be smiling once she understands the full context of what is going behind the scenes. Especially with Team Flare's little aid. There are far worse ways to crush Mairin's spirit. Bonnie can testify that with Squishy.

That sounds like trust no one but yourself... Alain had no reason to mistrust Lysandre and when that oppurtunity finally arised (Zygarde), he was already in the state of mind that he had to do everything in his power to correct his mistakes and save Chespin and make Mairin happy again.

Of course he has no reason to mistrust Lysandre. But he should have been more asking or suspicious of what he's doing, especially since he is the only cast member to be personally involved with the affairs of Team Flare. The others have the excuse of only seeing the wallpaper. Alain has seen the interior behind that wallpaper. He should no better. And if he is that blind to his goal of saving Chespie, he should really blame himself.

It's not exactly a goalpost switch, but okay, yeah he won the tournament and was crowd champion. I've seen sports anologies being thrown around lately (not necessarily here) so I'll look at it like this. Look at the recent SuperBowl XLIX (49 aka Seattle vs New England), well before that actually the AFC Championship's where New England and Tom Brady have been critically acclaimed as cheaters for "Deflatgate" where despite the evidence of tampering and what not, New England's championship title and SuperBowl title have not been revoked and no return of their rings and trophy. Not unlike the real world, which is spiteful and will never regard cheating in any sort of light, this is the Pokemon world, where forgiveness can land you a slap on the wrist.

I don't use real life comparisons to say that Alain deserves to revoke his trophy for his association with Team Flare, mainly because the Pokémon world operates a different system through artistic license. I use the story narrative as my perspective and what Alain as a character would do should he understand the full impact of his choices.

If redemption for Team Flare is coming, it's gonna happen in this arc and it's gonna paint a better picture of the true Alain, not the guy who unintentionally gathered energy for a group of thugs.

No one is denying that Alain will be redeemed. But no one is willingly to forget his actions beforehand. Especially Alain himself. To me, the true Alain is the epiphany calling out to him to let go of his desire to never lose and enjoy the battle for what it is, no matter the outcome. And really, the only way to bring that out is another rematch against Ash.

Based on the preview, Ash really didn't do much himself to prevent his own capture. If it was a sneak attack, neither guy could have prevented what happened.

I've seen all of the previews, including the footage with the sponsors. Celosia did not sneak attack on the two. She was standing on top of the vines with Alain and Ash sending out Pikachu and Charizard while she attacks with her regular Pokémon. It's a direct confrontation. Celosia says something and then next scene we see Ash being surrounded by some sort of flash bombs before being knocked out. And Alain is still standing, not doing anything. If it was a sneak attack, why isn't Alain attacked at the same time as Ash? Why just Ash? Was Alain too shocked that his team was doing the dirty work?

Plus, I think the Team Flare connection they constantly emphasize with Alain seems to be building a gut-punch for Ash. And what could be a worse gut punch than realizing that your friendly rival and champion has betrayed you to Team Flare? Especially if he decides to put the life of Mairin's Chespie over Ash's own safety?

Suffice to say, I don't know for sure. But Alain better explain why he failed to protect Ash despite his promise.

I seriously hate to make this reference due to my stained relationship with the series... but if Sasuke can somehow still be liked despite doing far worst crap then Alain has ever done and can still be well received by the characters in the story, then I see no reason to believe Alain will have any trouble unless people continue to hold a grudge against him for beating Ash in the Kalos League

Because Alain essentially took away what people wanted Ash to have for over 19 years: The Championship. Ash has been fighting Leagues and Gyms throughout the saga, and he has never come this close before. Especially on the 20th anniversary of Pokémon no less. That's why the outrage of this episode was enormous. We did not followed Alain's journey for 19 years. We followed Ash and we believe he is finally ready and worthy to claim the Champion title. Alain is not and that is why it's so upsetting.

Having Alain betray Ash would only cement that hatred as not only has Alain taken away what Ash deserves (remember, he's not here for the League trophy but to simply battle Ash to regain the excitement he had back in their first two battles), but he essentially backstabs the guy who did nothing wrong to him the whole time in favor to make one person and Pokémon smile. Well, they won't be smiling anymore.

Well that was quite an essay. It's a good debate I had so far.

 

[Pokefan19]

An interesting and well-thought out perspective for a character with good intentions. But I recall a similar situation with Ash not too long ago. It was the Wulfric Battle of the 8th Gym. Ash was determine to make Sawyer proud. To show why he is the trainer that Sawyer looks up to...

...And then he lost...badly. Ash has essentially humiliated himself in front of his own protege, made worse when you consider that he just recently lost to that same protege not too long ago. Sawyer was disappointed, but knows that Ash will recover eventually. Meanwhile, Ash went into a state of depression that only invokes silence. He not only failed Sawyer, he failed himself and Greninja. Only when he remembers why he wanted to be a Pokémon Trainer did he make amends and reforge his bond with Greninja. And that's how he became the trainer that Sawyer respectfully lost to in the League. He has passed his test. Alain did not. He still has that dangerous mindset of never losing. Ignored his epiphany for that. I can see his well-meaning reason to win, but he's is not worthy yet.

And really, Mairin won't be smiling once she understands the full context of what is going behind the scenes. Especially with Team Flare's little aid. There are far worse ways to crush Mairin's spirit. Bonnie can testify that with Squishy.

I'm being to actually wonder if Ash and Alain are suppose to be like Ash and Paul (aka flip sides of the same coin) or actually be two different trainers who took two similar but also vastly different paths. What I mean is in Ash's case, for Greninja to truly transform, both needed the same level of passion and faith in eachother where as Alain already had such faith in Charizard during his match with Malva (unless that was a dubbing error).

But anyway, yeah, Ash was trying way too hard in his match with Wulfric, so much so he forgot how much better he works with his battling stlye then when he tackles something head on with no clear direction. It is puzzling that Alain and Ash both had this desire for Power, but where it diverges (imo) is that where Ash wants, er well wanted, the power to complete his dream as well as further improve his Pokemon on his goals, Alain was seeking the power so that his friends and loved ones would no longer be in danger. Oddly enough though Ash and Greninja each think of the other as a strong partner the same way Alain and Charizard feel about eachother.

With how much she cares about Alain and how much both of them have no idea what Lysandre's real plans are (and how much Lysandre feels he actually is doing the right thing), I'm pretty sure she'll be more upset by Lysandre's actions of using Alain rather then be upset with Alain himself. Alain might not feel the same way though because well... he's somewhat delicate when it comes to emotional moments.

I did rewatch all of Ash's and Alain's battles (even the Final Battle) and everytime it seemed like Alain kept getting more and more impressed with Ash, even didn't seem to phase him during their first rematch that he might lose. But who knows, maybe he might have broken down and Ash might have reminded him that you don't always have to win to be considered strong (kinda like why Malva asked him why Charizard had to be the strongest).

Of course he has no reason to mistrust Lysandre. But he should have been more asking or suspicious of what he's doing, especially since he is the only cast member to be personally involved with the affairs of Team Flare. The others have the excuse of only seeing the wallpaper. Alain has seen the interior behind that wallpaper. He should no better. And if he is that blind to his goal of saving Chespie, he should really blame himself.

Lysandre only lets Alain see what he wants him to see... and based on Malva asking why Lysandre is using an innocent boy in his schemes his repsonse was that he wasn't decieving Alain in any matter, thus the conclusion would be even Lysandre has convinced himself that what he's doing atm is the right way to bring justice to humanity. But Malva did say she understands why Lysandre has such an interest in Alain

I don't use real life comparisons to say that Alain deserves to revoke his trophy for his association with Team Flare, mainly because the Pokémon world operates a different system through artistic license. I use the story narrative as my perspective and what Alain as a character would do should he understand the full impact of his choices.

Like I said I have seen it been used as a rebuttal, but I apologize for using it here since neither of us had made that sort of response up until this point. That's my fault...

No one is denying that Alain will be redeemed. But no one is willingly to forget his actions beforehand. Especially Alain himself. To me, the true Alain is the epiphany calling out to him to let go of his desire to never lose and enjoy the battle for what it is, no matter the outcome. And really, the only way to bring that out is another rematch against Ash.

Which we may or may not get... but at this point, unless they nerf Charizard's resilance or as Clemont put it "His stuborness" or Ash-Greninja somehow "levels up" (for lack of better term) in such a short manner, I cannot see how the results will change.

For the record, I'm the not the type who believes Team Flare cheated for Alain and I don't think Malva had any role in Greninja's defeat. As a reporter she was just stating the obvious that if Greninja lost, Ash would be out of Pokemon to battle thus Alain would be the winner.

I've seen all of the previews, including the footage with the sponsors. Celosia did not sneak attack on the two. She was standing on top of the vines with Alain and Ash sending out Pikachu and Charizard while she attacks with her regular Pokémon. It's a direct confrontation. Celosia says something and then next scene we see Ash being surrounded by some sort of flash bombs before being knocked out. And Alain is still standing, not doing anything. If it was a sneak attack, why isn't Alain attacked at the same time as Ash? Why just Ash? Was Alain too shocked that his team was doing the dirty work?

Plus, I think the Team Flare connection they constantly emphasize with Alain seems to be building a gut-punch for Ash. And what could be a worse gut punch than realizing that your friendly rival and champion has betrayed you to Team Flare? Especially if he decides to put the life of Mairin's Chespie over Ash's own safety?

Suffice to say, I don't know for sure. But Alain better explain why he failed to protect Ash despite his promise.

You're putting me in a corner with this one, I really can't argue against something I haven't seen in full. I really hate making assumptions... Well nope, I got nothing. All I can say is it looks like Ash and Alain had just sent out Pikachu and Charizard and got attacked. Also, I don't think it's just one person attacking them based on the angle shot.

Because Alain essentially took away what people wanted Ash to have for over 19 years: The Championship. Ash has been fighting Leagues and Gyms throughout the saga, and he has never come this close before. Especially on the 20th anniversary of Pokémon no less. That's why the outrage of this episode was enormous. We did not followed Alain's journey for 19 years. We followed Ash and we believe he is finally ready and worthy to claim the Champion title. Alain is not and that is why it's so upsetting.

But that's something I already knew about, it's not like I'm not upset about that too. What you might not know is despite this little back and forth wordplay were doing, I never really wanted Ash to lose. I wasn't left thrilled this might be the league he won, but that didn't mean I wanted Alain to win. But I'm not mad at Alain, he was written the way he's always been written the same way Ash was still Ash. From a storytelling standpoint, this falls squarely on whoever forced the staff to commit to the endless quota that Ash will always be strong but never strong enough to win a league. If it was the writers, for shame, but from all sense of purpose, it really feels like this was an executive decision.

Having Alain betray Ash would only cement that hatred as not only has Alain taken away what Ash deserves (remember, he's not here for the League trophy but to simply battle Ash to regain the excitement he had back in their first two battles), but he essentially backstabs the guy who did nothing wrong to him the whole time in favor to make one person and Pokémon smile. Well, they won't be smiling anymore.

From what I gather, I don't think it matters what Alain does from this point forward... unless he lost to Ash, I figure whoever was never a fan of him before the league will never be fans of him.

And while it was still the writers doing, Ash was the one that suggested Alain should compete in the league, and even though I know you know that, while it's not entirely directly related to his dream of becoming the best Mega User, the fact Ash said plenty of strong people will gather at the league was more then enough to convince Alain to join due to his desire to face such opponents, including Ash.

Just a little of my thought process for the record

Well that was quite an essay. It's a good debate I had so far.

Keeps the focus off strict depressing thoughts and I agree, some solid effort is getting put into this

 

[ZxCv]

Hearing all these reports of some writers believing Ash should have won and whatnot is actually quite exciting for me. Not because I think Ash should have won, but it does show us that there is a passion within the team. It shows they are as invested into the series as much as us, probably more. I can imagine all of these arguments, which we're dealing out now, were had in the writers room.