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Review XY131: Kalos League Victory! Satoshi's Ultimate Match!!

Can we just be clear here that Aito Oohashi (as opposed to Yukiyoshi Oohashi) and Iwane are Animation Directors and not writers. Not to lessen the impact of what they're saying (I agree with InfernoPlato - it's great that the team feels so passionately about the story they are telling us!) but a little accuracy will do no harm...
 
この流れで | はないちもんめ日記兼掲示板 | 10586
Just another staff member given his thoughts.
Translation, please? Also, going by the URL, it looks like this is from Iwane.

Translation:
Of course according to this fictional work I think "Probably he cannot win", it is only according to the flow of story "it seems like he can win", probably it makes one think "Even at the final episode he will also lose then?"
And this is something unrelated, but today of all days Xerosic's strange talking habit make his dialogue free of discomfort, I think it doesn't have any uncomfortableness.
> Rebelious: It became such result. His dream of becoming the strongest had fulfilled, firstly a word of congratulation, in future in order to aiming for the truly strongest it wouldn't be strange to appear in other regions.



Unfortunately, Iwane Masaaki is unlike Oohashi Aito, he was always being neutral to the overall screen-writing and story construction of the Pokemon Anime, he didn't side with any of the director board nor the fans. As it said clearly in his word, regardless of story throwing tons of hints alluding he may finally become the winner, he acknowledged Ash is unable to win because this is Pokemon Anime.
Also just a side note, in some of his past post, he even said "I think it is fine where protagonist keeps on losing continuously".

When the staff is like that, why fans should held on any false hope that Ash will accomplish his dream in some future day? Wake up from the illusion, Ash will never achieve his dream because this is Pokemon Anime. (credited by staff of Pokemon Anime)
 
Translation:
Of course according to this fictional work I think "Probably he cannot win", it is only according to the flow of story "it seems like he can win", probably it makes one think "Even at the final episode he will also lose then?"
And this is something unrelated, but today of all days Xerosic's strange talking habit make his dialogue free of discomfort, I think it doesn't have any uncomfortableness.
> Rebelious: It became such result. His dream of becoming the strongest had fulfilled, firstly a word of congratulation, in future in order to aiming for the truly strongest it wouldn't be strange to appear in other regions.



Unfortunately, Iwane Masaaki is unlike Oohashi Aito, he was always being neutral to the overall screen-writing and story construction of the Pokemon Anime, he didn't side with any of the director board nor the fans. As it said clearly in his word, regardless of story throwing tons of hints alluding he may finally become the winner, he acknowledged Ash is unable to win because this is Pokemon Anime.
Also just a side note, in some of his past post, he even said "I think it is fine where protagonist keeps on losing continuously".

When the staff is like that, why fans should held on any false hope that Ash will accomplish his dream in some future day? Wake up from the illusion, Ash will never achieve his dream because this is Pokemon Anime. (credited by staff of Pokemon Anime)

This broke my hopes :cry:
Probably not planning to watch SM now :l
 
So if there's anything we can take from the writing staff, it seems Alain is and shall remain the Champion... Not that I believed they had planned to write a ridiculously complexed story after Ash lost in order for him to get a secondary victory.
 
It is puzzling that Alain and Ash both had this desire for Power, but where it diverges (imo) is that where Ash wants, er well wanted, the power to complete his dream as well as further improve his Pokemon on his goals, Alain was seeking the power so that his friends and loved ones would no longer be in danger. Oddly enough though Ash and Greninja each think of the other as a strong partner the same way Alain and Charizard feel about each other.

Saying that Ash desires power is a bit of stretch for his character. He desires to be the best, but power is not his focus. When he focuses on power, he ends up losing badly. When he focuses on his faith to his Pokémon, he can go beyond the impossible. Alain focuses too much on power. Doesn't matter what his noble goals are. It all remains the same in the end. That desire for power will only destroy him. And he will suffer that fact when Team Flare comes to destroy the city. So much for protection. Looks like he caused it. And be controlled by it.

With how much she cares about Alain and how much both of them have no idea what Lysandre's real plans are (and how much Lysandre feels he actually is doing the right thing), I'm pretty sure she'll be more upset by Lysandre's actions of using Alain rather then be upset with Alain himself. Alain might not feel the same way though because well... he's somewhat delicate when it comes to emotional moments.

Given the recent details regarding to Chespie and if my theory is true, I don't think Mairin would be happy that Alain knowingly betrayed the a fellow trainer who is willing to fight against the disaster in order to save Chespie. That would be the ultimate betrayal he could have ever done.

I did rewatch all of Ash's and Alain's battles (even the Final Battle) and everytime it seemed like Alain kept getting more and more impressed with Ash, even didn't seem to phase him during their first rematch that he might lose. But who knows, maybe he might have broken down and Ash might have reminded him that you don't always have to win to be considered strong (kinda like why Malva asked him why Charizard had to be the strongest).

While that is a lesson for Alain to eventually learn, if you're implying that some how proves that the League loss was executive meddling, I have my doubts. Alain winning the League only sets him up to suffer the worst kind of defeat that anyone has to experience. The full impact of his foolish choices and the inability to do anything about it (as Ash is prophesied to save the Kalos region) despite always winning. It teaches kids that sometimes straight victories do not translate as being strong enough to protect those you care about. Ash does not always win, but he never gives up to save those he cares about. And that's what him strong.

Lysandre only lets Alain see what he wants him to see... and based on Malva asking why Lysandre is using an innocent boy in his schemes his repsonse was that he wasn't decieving Alain in any matter, thus the conclusion would be even Lysandre has convinced himself that what he's doing atm is the right way to bring justice to humanity. But Malva did say she understands why Lysandre has such an interest in Alain

Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows the fool? And if Lysandre believes in his own lies, that he genuinely think that he's bringing justice to humanity, could he not simply persuade Alain to backstab Ash for the greater good? The most dangerous villain are the ones who genuinely believe they are good. Simply because they can persuade people into their own kind of thinking without recognizing the wrongdoings. Not it matters now. Lysandre has ways to subdue an asset like Alain under his command.

Which we may or may not get... but at this point, unless they nerf Charizard's resilance or as Clemont put it "His stuborness" or Ash-Greninja somehow "levels up" (for lack of better term) in such a short manner, I cannot see how the results will change.

There was only a sliver of difference between Ash-Greninja and Mega Charizard X. And judging from the Orange Shuriken, Ash-Greninja's power has yet to reach its full-potential. And considering that Ash and Greninja will reach new heights and be the saviors of the Kalos Region, I can say that Ash-Greninja will close that sliver of a gap and defeat Mega Charizard X.

For the record, I'm the not the type who believes Team Flare cheated for Alain and I don't think Malva had any role in Greninja's defeat. As a reporter she was just stating the obvious that if Greninja lost, Ash would be out of Pokemon to battle thus Alain would be the winner.

I wouldn't trust Malva's words even if she's trying to be obviously neutral. But there's a reason why I went with the guilt factor theory. Alain is the type of character who would feel ashamed to be a champion and yet failed to stop Team Flare from harming those he cares about. He would see Ash, the boy who brought the fun and excitement out of him during their battles, as someone who deserves it more than he does.

The rigged theory is more or less just a cementation for Alain to do another rematch against Ash.

You're putting me in a corner with this one, I really can't argue against something I haven't seen in full. I really hate making assumptions... Well nope, I got nothing. All I can say is it looks like Ash and Alain had just sent out Pikachu and Charizard and got attacked. Also, I don't think it's just one person attacking them based on the angle shot.

I cannot say for sure if the betrayal theory is guaranteed, but more evidences points towards that direction. All I know is that Ash was saying, "Alain, why..?" or "Alain, why are..?" in the special preview which shows Alain on the Lumoise Tower sulking in the sunset, and that Alain and Ash were alone together in another preview facing off Team Flare at broad daylight. What stood out like a sore thumb is how Alain was still standing when Ash gets knocked out. If I was commanding Team Flare, I would have try to knock out the Champion first and then the runner up. That's of course, however, I don't have any leverage against Alain. But Lysandre does... with Chespie.


But that's something I already knew about, it's not like I'm not upset about that too. What you might not know is despite this little back and forth wordplay were doing, I never really wanted Ash to lose. I wasn't left thrilled this might be the league he won, but that didn't mean I wanted Alain to win. But I'm not mad at Alain, he was written the way he's always been written the same way Ash was still Ash. From a storytelling standpoint, this falls squarely on whoever forced the staff to commit to the endless quota that Ash will always be strong but never strong enough to win a league. If it was the writers, for shame, but from all sense of purpose, it really feels like this was an executive decision.

To me, if it was executive meddling that prevented Ash from winning, why Ash so close to victory? Why is Ash so consistently competent and so powerful that he makes the Sinnoh Ash look like a rookie? I've told many people what I thought about Ash entering in the finals. Should Ash ever get there, he might as well win. They have could have Ash be in the Top 8 or Top 4 like any other League. Have him beaten by a trainer that is both superior in terms of skill and personality (like Ritchie or Harrison) to show how much room Ash needs to grow. This is not the case here. Ash comes off as the the superior of the two trainers. He is powerful but humble. He strives to win, but doesn't care about the outcome so long as he has good fight. And he fought to the very sliver.

I can't see executives risk the status quo to be that close of breaking if they want to maintain it. And it doesn't seem to be last minute as it felt natural despite the hype. That's why I believe this was a plot twist made to create an intended audience reaction. That Alain is not worthy of being a champion unlike Ash. Even the animators are saying Ash should have won that battle. I don't believe it's status quo we are dealing with.

From what I gather, I don't think it matters what Alain does from this point forward... unless he lost to Ash, I figure whoever was never a fan of him before the league will never be fans of him.

And while it was still the writers doing, Ash was the one that suggested Alain should compete in the league, and even though I know you know that, while it's not entirely directly related to his dream of becoming the best Mega User, the fact Ash said plenty of strong people will gather at the league was more then enough to convince Alain to join due to his desire to face such opponents, including Ash.

Ash convincing Alain to join the League didn't really hoist Ash's own chance of winning the League as much as giving Alain a chance to learn and understand what his epiphany is trying to tell him. He was to face a trainer who can help remember the fun and excitement that he never felt during any of his previous battles. The lesson he was supposed to learn was that battles are not always about winning and that you can still be feel good and still strong even in defeat. He completely ignores that in favor of Never losing for Mairin. He failed his lesson and was only lucky that he won. But all that does is set up him up for his ultimate defeat.
 
I am kind of glad Alain won instead. Ash doesn't need a league win to achieve something. He manage to get top 2 and that itself is an achievement. He has the best regional team yet which is another achievement. So Ash has achieve something.
 
Translation:
Of course according to this fictional work I think "Probably he cannot win", it is only according to the flow of story "it seems like he can win", probably it makes one think "Even at the final episode he will also lose then?"
And this is something unrelated, but today of all days Xerosic's strange talking habit make his dialogue free of discomfort, I think it doesn't have any uncomfortableness.
> Rebelious: It became such result. His dream of becoming the strongest had fulfilled, firstly a word of congratulation, in future in order to aiming for the truly strongest it wouldn't be strange to appear in other regions.
No insult intended, but I don't really get what he's trying to tell us.
Can you translate that again into more understandable English, please?
 
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I do understand there exist difference in grammar and sentence structure between English and Japanese, but because I don't want to assume any unintended meaning by putting in extra words or phrase where he didn't mentioned in his original Japanese post, so I can only translate it word by word, and rearrange the sentence in comprehensible English.

In any case, his post was very short, there was not much extra information can be grasp from it, other than what I had mentioned previously, his tone seems neutral that is neither side with the writers nor the fans, where he just state out his view about KL's final match result objectively, which is "according to story flow it seems like Ash can win, but according to this fictional work (meaning according to the fact that this is Pokemon Anime) he probably won't win".

The other two sentences, one is about his opinion on Xerosic, and one which is replying to the person Rebellious is about Alain.
 
So if there's anything we can take from the writing staff, it seems Alain is and shall remain the Champion... Not that I believed they had planned to write a ridiculously complexed story after Ash lost in order for him to get a secondary victory.
I'd say that does about put it to bed.

I'll give them some credit though. This series did quite a job of raising expectations...Where you had casuals, older fans, and even prominent Youtubers getting excited for the show because of how much better things seem to be. Not sure how things will be beyond the fallout, but hell.
 
I do understand there exist difference in grammar and sentence structure between English and Japanese, but because I don't want to assume any unintended meaning by putting in extra words or phrase where he didn't mentioned in his original Japanese post, so I can only translate it word by word, and rearrange the sentence in comprehensible English.

In any case, his post was very short, there was not much extra information can be grasp from it, other than what I had mentioned previously, his tone seems neutral that is neither side with the writers nor the fans, where he just state out his view about KL's final match result objectively, which is "according to story flow it seems like Ash can win, but according to this fictional work (meaning according to the fact that this is Pokemon Anime) he probably won't win".

The other two sentences, one is about his opinion on Xerosic, and one which is replying to the person Rebellious is about Alain.
I figured as much. Thank you for translating it, regardless.
 
Looking back on all this, I get the feeling that Alain's shiny new trophy is only going to serve as a reminder of what he's done under Team Flare and Lysandre when the Flare arc is all said and done.

I can understand just a little better why he won this now. You've gotta climb all the way to the very top before you truly plummet.
 
So according to that guy he thinks its okay to have a story where the protagonist never wins and they are struggling with ratings? Um, okay... I honestly feel bad for him, its not going to last much longer at this rate and who's going to hire staff with such wacky philosophy? There is no "flow" to the story lol.
 
Saying that Ash desires power is a bit of stretch for his character. He desires to be the best, but power is not his focus. When he focuses on power, he ends up losing badly. When he focuses on his faith to his Pokémon, he can go beyond the impossible. Alain focuses too much on power. Doesn't matter what his noble goals are. It all remains the same in the end. That desire for power will only destroy him. And he will suffer that fact when Team Flare comes to destroy the city. So much for protection. Looks like he caused it. And be controlled by it.
Apparently all that belief in his Pokemon isn't all it's cracked up to be seeing as he's lost 5 out of 6 leagues due to his opponent being stronger them him (Ritiche was not better then Ash, it's just TR and Charizard's unwillingness to listen to Ash, that were his undoing). And while yes following the path of Power is a dangerous one, you can't tell me Alain doesn't have faith in his Pokemon. The only reason we see Charizard so much is it's Alain's Pikachu, his starter, the Pokemon Alain started his journey with. The both share the same dreams of being the best Mega Pokemon and trainer. If he didn't have faith in any of his other Pokemon he would have relied solely on Mega Charizard vs Ash, and yet Zard didn't stand out in the crowd as Weavile and Bisharp also contributed in a big way as well as Metagross doing most of the work vs Pikachu allowing Zard to have a much easier time finishing it off. That was just as much a team effort as Ash's Hawlucha damaging Sawyer's Slaking for Talonflame to take it out.

Given the recent details regarding to Chespie and if my theory is true, I don't think Mairin would be happy that Alain knowingly betrayed the a fellow trainer who is willing to fight against the disaster in order to save Chespie. That would be the ultimate betrayal he could have ever done.
Unless you undermind the relationship Mairin has with her Chespie... You saw just how much it tore her to shreds that he wasn't responding despite being in "good condition". If Chespie bites the dust, that very well could seal Alain's and Mairin's relationship in a heartbeat. Being forced to turn on someone against their will is nothing new in Pokemon, happens quite often in the Manga series actually.


While that is a lesson for Alain to eventually learn, if you're implying that some how proves that the League loss was executive meddling, I have my doubts. Alain winning the League only sets him up to suffer the worst kind of defeat that anyone has to experience. The full impact of his foolish choices and the inability to do anything about it (as Ash is prophesied to save the Kalos region) despite always winning. It teaches kids that sometimes straight victories do not translate as being strong enough to protect those you care about. Ash does not always win, but he never gives up to save those he cares about. And that's what him strong.
Well considering we've seen Ash go through this song and dance over the last 19 years, of coarse it's gonna be a bit rough for Alain. Unlike Ash, he actually had a connection with the guy he was working for, he truly believed he was helping the greater good. And don't act like that couldn't happen to Ash, he's doesn't have future sight that allows him to know of hidden intentions.

Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows the fool? And if Lysandre believes in his own lies, that he genuinely think that he's bringing justice to humanity, could he not simply persuade Alain to backstab Ash for the greater good? The most dangerous villain are the ones who genuinely believe they are good. Simply because they can persuade people into their own kind of thinking without recognizing the wrongdoings. Not it matters now. Lysandre has ways to subdue an asset like Alain under his command.
The way you keep talking about being the fool makes it out that you think Alain was well aware of what he was doing... he wasn't and at no point in time was there a point where he could question what's going on. Again, the Zygarde attack happened to be while Chespie was still in a coma and as I've mentioned Mairin would be devastated that Alain didn't do everything in his power to save him. But betrayal was never on Alain's mind in the first place, which again would mean Alain would have to know Lysandre really isn't all that good of guy. At not point did the anime protray Lysandre as a questionable figure in front of Alain or Mairin for that matter. It's only when it becomes obvious that you can look back and question what you've done but you cannot realistically blame yourself because you honestly had no way of knowing.

There was only a sliver of difference between Ash-Greninja and Mega Charizard X. And judging from the Orange Shuriken, Ash-Greninja's power has yet to reach its full-potential. And considering that Ash and Greninja will reach new heights and be the saviors of the Kalos Region, I can say that Ash-Greninja will close that sliver of a gap and defeat Mega Charizard X.
That is if they even battle again, but considering everyone considered Greninja to be at his max potential, why is it now considered that he was only just at say, 95% of his potential? Even then, Greninja hasn't been with Ash for as long as Charizard has been with Alain and while convenient anime power up is convenient, Ash Greninja hasn't tackled the gaunlet of facing 10 straight Mega Pokemon in a row with minimum healing time (Alain was only at best carrying berries and potions). And while Ash Greninja gave Mega Gardevoir a scare, Alain has actually beaten a high level opponent in Malva and won the battle with Blast Burn, a move that's not very effective on Meg Houndoom.


I wouldn't trust Malva's words even if she's trying to be obviously neutral. But there's a reason why I went with the guilt factor theory. Alain is the type of character who would feel ashamed to be a champion and yet failed to stop Team Flare from harming those he cares about. He would see Ash, the boy who brought the fun and excitement out of him during their battles, as someone who deserves it more than he does.

The rigged theory is more or less just a cementation for Alain to do another rematch against Ash.
I don't really have to go any further then mention what the writers said about Ash losing... from a narative standpoint it made way too much sense for Ash to win, but since this is Pokemon, Ash is destined to lose till GF stops making games. And unless you believe they have some conplexed, well thought out story to guarentee Ash will actually succeed in victory in the end, nothing is there to suggest that was the plan in the first place. If Ash was gonna win the league, it was gonna happen in the league.

I cannot say for sure if the betrayal theory is guaranteed, but more evidences points towards that direction. All I know is that Ash was saying, "Alain, why..?" or "Alain, why are..?" in the special preview which shows Alain on the Lumoise Tower sulking in the sunset, and that Alain and Ash were alone together in another preview facing off Team Flare at broad daylight. What stood out like a sore thumb is how Alain was still standing when Ash gets knocked out. If I was commanding Team Flare, I would have try to knock out the Champion first and then the runner up. That's of course, however, I don't have any leverage against Alain. But Lysandre does... with Chespie.
I never really threw out betrayal, it honest made sense to me, it's not even a tough pill to swallow. It does however depend on what you think of the relationship between Mairin and Chespie. Mairn might just be as well be a secondary hostage, but that's an assumption so...

To me, if it was executive meddling that prevented Ash from winning, why Ash so close to victory? Why is Ash so consistently competent and so powerful that he makes the Sinnoh Ash look like a rookie? I've told many people what I thought about Ash entering in the finals. Should Ash ever get there, he might as well win. They have could have Ash be in the Top 8 or Top 4 like any other League. Have him beaten by a trainer that is both superior in terms of skill and personality (like Ritchie or Harrison) to show how much room Ash needs to grow. This is not the case here. Ash comes off as the the superior of the two trainers. He is powerful but humble. He strives to win, but doesn't care about the outcome so long as he has good fight. And he fought to the very sliver.
I'm spliting this up for the sake of the bold. You see that's where Part 2 of this battle agrees with you, albeit that Ash was clearly the favor the battle for not only having 3 Pokemon compared to Alain's 2, but also for the fact that Ash's remaining 2 Pokemon had not partaken in the battle yet and because Greninja still ultimately had the type advantage. Everytime Ash has ever won a match, it's when he's protrayed as the underdog and while Alain in fact should have been the trainer to beat, the picture was painted that Ash was the one to beat. And honestly, Ash literally threw Goodra away by heavily relying on Bide and luck. (Even the announcer questioned if Ash was trying to get lucky with Goodra)

[QuoteI can't see executives risk the status quo to be that close of breaking if they want to maintain it. And it doesn't seem to be last minute as it felt natural despite the hype. That's why I believe this was a plot twist made to create an intended audience reaction. That Alain is not worthy of being a champion unlike Ash. Even the animators are saying Ash should have won that battle. I don't believe it's status quo we are dealing with.[/Quote]
That most likely could be the case. But not every animator/director is saying that, some are probably indifferent to the subject.

Ash convincing Alain to join the League didn't really hoist Ash's own chance of winning the League as much as giving Alain a chance to learn and understand what his epiphany is trying to tell him. He was to face a trainer who can help remember the fun and excitement that he never felt during any of his previous battles. The lesson he was supposed to learn was that battles are not always about winning and that you can still be feel good and still strong even in defeat. He completely ignores that in favor of Never losing for Mairin. He failed his lesson and was only lucky that he won. But all that does is set up him up for his ultimate defeat.
I don't know if I would call Alain's win lucky... he didn't ultimately out strategize Ash, but he didn't just have his Pokemon recklessly attack. He knew Hawlucha's speed was a threat so he had Bisharp use Thunder Wave and he knew Pikachu was fast as well so he had Metagross use Agility. He proved he was a difficult opponent by only needing Charizard and Metagross up to that point in the league. We'll never really know if Ash had done the same up until Sawyer because of the (quite frankly dumb) decision to skip every one of Ash's battles till the Semi Finals. If that were the case though, then Ash and Alain would have pretty much been equals in terms of battle potential. The kicker is that Charizard still very much outclassed Greninja in both opponents faced and battles experienced in general.
 
I still however maintain the opinion that using this league as set-up for the villain team arc was a bit bonkers. Even for all its faults, the Unova League was still the main focus. It was never overshadowed by Episode N. We didn't have N randomly enter it with eight badges and sweep Ash and everyone else with Reshiram or Zekrom before Ghetsis and Team Plasma immediately struck, now did we?

I'm hoping that whatever we get for Alola's league isn't sidelined in favor of a Team Skull arc afterwards. Make leagues the A-Plot next time, writers.
 
Apparently all that belief in his Pokemon isn't all it's cracked up to be seeing as he's lost 5 out of 6 leagues due to his opponent being stronger them him (Ritiche was not better then Ash, it's just TR and Charizard's unwillingness to listen to Ash, that were his undoing). And while yes following the path of Power is a dangerous one, you can't tell me Alain doesn't have faith in his Pokemon. The only reason we see Charizard so much is it's Alain's Pikachu, his starter, the Pokemon Alain started his journey with. The both share the same dreams of being the best Mega Pokemon and trainer. If he didn't have faith in any of his other Pokemon he would have relied solely on Mega Charizard vs Ash, and yet Zard didn't stand out in the crowd as Weavile and Bisharp also contributed in a big way as well as Metagross doing most of the work vs Pikachu allowing Zard to have a much easier time finishing it off. That was just as much a team effort as Ash's Hawlucha damaging Sawyer's Slaking for Talonflame to take it out.

That's not Alain's problem. His mentality of "I must never lose" is the problem here. Ash having faith in his Pokémon doesn't always guarantee wins, I'm not saying that, but they can allow him to do things no one can expect. Far better than focusing on power. For Ash, it's to give it his best and all no matter the outcome. When he tries to win in order to prove something to someone, it backfires on him pretty quickly. Alain has yet to suffer that kind of defeat due to his victories. But all they do is set up him for his biggest fall.

Unless you undermind the relationship Mairin has with her Chespie... You saw just how much it tore her to shreds that he wasn't responding despite being in "good condition". If Chespie bites the dust, that very well could seal Alain's and Mairin's relationship in a heartbeat. Being forced to turn on someone against their will is nothing new in Pokemon, happens quite often in the Manga series actually.

Mairin losing Chespie could have damage her relationship with Alain for good. But I have seen too many examples of the other spectrum happening. Remember the AZ's story. Sometimes, the price is not worth the life of one.

Well considering we've seen Ash go through this song and dance over the last 19 years, of coarse it's gonna be a bit rough for Alain. Unlike Ash, he actually had a connection with the guy he was working for, he truly believed he was helping the greater good. And don't act like that couldn't happen to Ash, he's doesn't have future sight that allows him to know of hidden intentions.

It's going to be rough considering where he is before Team Flare attacks. He was at the peak of his glory, but has yet to realize what kind of situation he put himself in or learned anything from a positive influence. From a viewer's perspective, I wanted him to understand what he's doing is wrong before it comes crashing down. Perhaps it's because of his mentality of "never losing" that irks me as that combine with not knowing his organization group is evil is begging for a knock on the peg.

The way you keep talking about being the fool makes it out that you think Alain was well aware of what he was doing... he wasn't and at no point in time was there a point where he could question what's going on. Again, the Zygarde attack happened to be while Chespie was still in a coma and as I've mentioned Mairin would be devastated that Alain didn't do everything in his power to save him. But betrayal was never on Alain's mind in the first place, which again would mean Alain would have to know Lysandre really isn't all that good of guy. At not point did the anime protray Lysandre as a questionable figure in front of Alain or Mairin for that matter. It's only when it becomes obvious that you can look back and question what you've done but you cannot realistically blame yourself because you honestly had no way of knowing.

Perhaps I am a bit too harsh on Alain. But at the same time, what am I suppose to do when a viewer knows in hindsight irony that Alain is on the wrong side? You want him to understand that quickly, but he never truly does until it's too late. It's that type of frustration that makes me really want him to see him fall hard. As for Zygarde, I've mentioned before why his passion to help Chespie is a dangerous road. And how passion is the undoing.

That is if they even battle again, but considering everyone considered Greninja to be at his max potential, why is it now considered that he was only just at say, 95% of his potential? Even then, Greninja hasn't been with Ash for as long as Charizard has been with Alain and while convenient anime power up is convenient, Ash Greninja hasn't tackled the gaunlet of facing 10 straight Mega Pokemon in a row with minimum healing time (Alain was only at best carrying berries and potions). And while Ash Greninja gave Mega Gardevoir a scare, Alain has actually beaten a high level opponent in Malva and won the battle with Blast Burn, a move that's not very effective on Meg Houndoom.

You remember what I said about Ash doing things beyond the impossible? No one could truly know the max potential of Ash-Greninja. It always has a new surprise up its sleeve, such as that new Shuriken. And really, just because Alain's Charizard has more training does not mean that Ash-Greninja is doomed to defeat. Narrative-wise, which trumps all training logic, indicates Ash-Greninja will overcome and surpass Mega Charizard X.

I don't really have to go any further then mention what the writers said about Ash losing... from a narative standpoint it made way too much sense for Ash to win, but since this is Pokemon, Ash is destined to lose till GF stops making games. And unless you believe they have some conplexed, well thought out story to guarentee Ash will actually succeed in victory in the end, nothing is there to suggest that was the plan in the first place. If Ash was gonna win the league, it was gonna happen in the league.

I've read the animator's quotes above and it seems to me that he's mentioning how actually tense the final battle is because of probability. Narrative and status quo clashing one another, which creates genuine tension which I did felt. A new perspective, but I dare say it only works once. And really, there's no reason why a League means the end. And really, when you make Alain look bad and Ash look good, status quo cannot save you now. Either it's a brilliant twist that lead to a satisfying story ending, or a stupid move that demands retribution. And really, I have yet to be let down by the XY&Z writers.


I'm spliting this up for the sake of the bold. You see that's where Part 2 of this battle agrees with you, albeit that Ash was clearly the favor the battle for not only having 3 Pokemon compared to Alain's 2, but also for the fact that Ash's remaining 2 Pokemon had not partaken in the battle yet and because Greninja still ultimately had the type advantage. Everytime Ash has ever won a match, it's when he's protrayed as the underdog and while Alain in fact should have been the trainer to beat, the picture was painted that Ash was the one to beat. And honestly, Ash literally threw Goodra away by heavily relying on Bide and luck. (Even the announcer questioned if Ash was trying to get lucky with Goodra)

The match was even, neck to neck. Up until Ash-Greninja vs Mega Charizard X, where Ash-Greninja never got the chance to defeat Mega Charizard X. The situation decrees that Ash-Greninja is the underdog and thus needs to overcome it at the very end (especially since Greninja is the most popular Pokémon in Japan)

But let me tell you what I mean by Ash being the superior trainer. In the League battles that Ash has lost, it is normally against a trainer who is better than him and is clearly more experienced and less flawed (only exception is Cameron, but I attribute that to bad writing), often representing the room for Ash to grow. But Alain doesn't represent that room for Ash to grow. Instead it's Ash who represents the room Alain needs to grow as a trainer and person. If Ash becomes the better trainer (note: Doesn't necessary mean stronger battler) than Alain, people will question why does Alain deserve the championship when he learns nothing from the League.

That most likely could be the case. But not every animator/director is saying that, some are probably indifferent to the subject.

Just one or two animators are enough for me to say that this is no ordinary League loss. And really, even subtracting all the animators, I still believe this is an intended audience reaction given the negative backlash.

I don't know if I would call Alain's win lucky... he didn't ultimately out strategize Ash, but he didn't just have his Pokemon recklessly attack. He knew Hawlucha's speed was a threat so he had Bisharp use Thunder Wave and he knew Pikachu was fast as well so he had Metagross use Agility. He proved he was a difficult opponent by only needing Charizard and Metagross up to that point in the league. We'll never really know if Ash had done the same up until Sawyer because of the (quite frankly dumb) decision to skip every one of Ash's battles till the Semi Finals. If that were the case though, then Ash and Alain would have pretty much been equals in terms of battle potential. The kicker is that Charizard still very much outclassed Greninja in both opponents faced and battles experienced in general.

What I mean about Alain being lucky is that he did not got to taste defeat at all. That temporarily spares him from the breakdown of losing the first battle in a very long time, but he still has that mentality of "never losing" even when he got that trophy. A long win streak with no losing plus the mentality of "I shall never lose" is a dangerous combination, doomed to set Alain up for a long fall. The way to mitigate that problem is to embrace the possibility of defeat and enjoy the battle for what it is regardless of the outcome. Ash learned that a long time ago.
 
I only flipped about 3 tables after watching that episode
flip_the_table_png_by_nfc_by_ninetailsfoxchan-d510m6l.png

^me flipping tables
 
Okay first I am going to say this: Though I wanted Ash to win (He's my favorite Character in the whole Anime) and would have been as excited and more so if he had, I am okay with the outcome of this match. Top two/runner-up is a major step up from all his previous standings in past leagues and we all should be proud of Ash for making it that far.

Please Note that the writers write for Ash and the animators draw his motions and movements. Ash is not real, he's just a character so I would really like people to stop calling him a loser or whatever, when the creators are the ones that make his decisions come alive and rather he wins or loses.

Now this is just my opinion but ever since I joined the Bulbagarden forums all I have ever heard was how this is the best Ash has ever been and truthfully it really has; his game has been on point in this whole series as a great trainer. So have you ever stopped and thought that maybe that is why he did not win the Kalos League?

You all go on and on about how the writers of the XY(Z) anime has shaken things up, how they did away with the status quo on some things etc etc...well losing a league is nothing new which is very true, but having the underdog win is completely new and as many of you have stated because of how good Ash has been this series according to all of your guys logic, Ash is not the underdog.
I am not saying I believe Alain is the underdog because he does have a strong Charizard that can pack quite a punch, but in most ways Alain is the underdog because hardly no one in the Pokemon anime Fandom wanted him to win. everyone including team rocket were rooting for Ash to win, only Mairin was cheering for him because Sycamore was cheering for both finalists so Alain had to share the Professor.

In my honest opinion Ash's motivation is his dream and that is perfectly fine but Ash's dream is to be a Pokemon Master, it's not to win a Regional League (though it's probably a step in the right direction) and he's young so he still has plenty of adventures to go on and even if he won the Kalos League he would still have went to Alola but him losing was the easiest way to transition to Alola. and here it is, had he won I would have after cheering my heart out would have crashed back to earth when I realized that there was no mention of his mother or Oak or his older Pokemon watching him win and that would have felt like a hollow win to me and I would have been angry like how everyone is angry at him losing. I am not sorry to say but his most important people are not just the one's in Kalos. I think it really was a tip off in how the league was going to end when we didn't even see his mother watching; you all were caught off guard because he lost when in reality you shouldn't have been.

I honestly feel bad for Alain, because when everything is done and over with he is going to have so much guilt, and the weight of how he was so easily manipulated by that crazy nut job, is going to follow him for the rest of his life. Alain is a good guy and he will be redeemed and if he betrays Ash at first it was because of a reason but in the end Ash will forgive him because that is who Ash is. I am okay with Alain winning because it makes sense why he did when you consider this; from the start of this series Ash has been on a roll and everyone has been hoping or predicting a win from him and because of that status, no one expected Alain to enter the league, I know I didn't but then he did and everyone was so sure that the anime would follow the same status quo of Ash defeating a rival he has lost to a few times before but look what they did, they threw that one out the window too.

Yes Alain's Charizard is strong but so is Greninja and though the battle wasn't heart racing like Ash's battle with Sawyer it was still a awesome battle non-the-less. the writers really did throw a curve ball out there by having Alain win because no one really expected him to do so, because they all thought it would be Ash. maybe the writers will have Ash and Alain battle again but I really don't think they will but who knows they could still surprise us.

I do respect the fans who are upset and no one has a right to stop you or tell you to get over it but really in the end it's just a show that is fun to watch and I believe it's more about the journey then the destination and I am looking forward to the Team Flare Arc. :D
 
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