Your controversial opinions

[PinkThunder]

lets go are good games if you understand what they were trying to do.

 

[Greninjaman]

lets go are good games if you understand what they were trying to do.

What were they trying to do with the Let's Go games?

 

[Epic Spheal]

Probably my biggest controversial opinion is that the gen 7 game's story was the weakest

First off in a region that's very traditional I don't know why Gamefreak decided to make the protagonist move to Alola and not have been born and raised in the region. Like there's something unsettling about how the first ever champion of Alola ends up being someone from Kanto. I would've even taken the whole "Player character was from Alola originally, the family moved to Kanto but then moved back to Alola" over just making them a foreigner

Second is they had the perfect set up tackling a story about tradition vs progress in gen 7 (especially with ditching gyms for trials which I enjoyed) with Kukui perhaps getting pushback for making a league (not just from team skull but even some of the Kahunas or general island elders) but instead they choose to make the Aether Family such a focus which leads to my biggest issue. When we could've had Guzma, Plumeria, Hau, Hala, Olivia, Nanu, Acerola, Kukui, and Hapu as the centers of a plot around tradition vs progress we end up stuck with Lillie as our main focal point and I really dislike how they handled her plot (and her in general).

Lillie comes off as extremely hypocritical in that first segment of the game, constantly asking the player (who just MOVED to Alola and would need time to adjust) to help her out with her struggles but then chastising the player in the trainer school about battling with their Pokemon. It's just such a bad look when you consider N who also hated battling trainers still had enough guts to catch and raise Pokemon to complete his mission (even if he released them afterwards he still actually had agency). Lillie just waits for the player when she could have had even just one Pokemon (or even put Nebby in a Pokeball and then release it once she was sure it was safe). The fact that the game refuses to give her any agency until the end is just infuriating and her hypocritical statements in no way endeared her to me. It would've been much more interesting to see her acknowledge her dislike of battling but overcome it early on so that she could at least try to protect Nebby. Even if she failed I'd feel more sympathetic because she at least tried to step out of her comfort zone. She didn't have to be on the island challenge with us, just you know not wait for some random kid she met a day ago to save her.

Not to mention the sheer idiocy of how Kukui, Burnet, Hala, never once think to catch her a Pokemon so she could defend herself with them having some knowledge that this girl is a runaway with people out to get her. I know from a gaming standpoint it was to give the player more battles but if the OP Child Protagonist plot has to come with a side of making the adults look incompetent it's not that great narratively (this is why Gen 5 is the most well done in my opinion because while player gets to be the OP Child Protag, the adults on the side of the player don't look incompetent).

 

[BackSet]

Even though Sinnoh is my favorite region I have difficulty playing any game pre-Gen 5. Probably because unlike people think the series did not peak before Gen 5 and had quite a few issues (mostly mechanically) that was ironed out starting in Gen 5 and ending in Gen 7.

 

[Sheep40]

The next generation should be to the rest of Pokemon what Tugs was to Thomas the Tank Engine (as in, still very much for kids but much more somber, a bit more complex in terms of story and characters, and generally a bit darker in different ways).

We've had kiddie edge since ghetsis in gen 5. Do something different. It's kind of worn out it's course.

 

[Lanstar]

I don't like 'postgame regions'. I'd rather have the postgame be a genuine extension of the existing region of the game. Unova made the ideal kind of postgame my perfect game would have.

 

[venusboi79]

The next generation should be to the rest of Pokemon what Tugs was to Thomas the Tank Engine (as in, still very much for kids but much more somber, a bit more complex in terms of story and characters, and generally a bit darker in different ways).

We've had kiddie edge since ghetsis in gen 5. Do something different. It's kind of worn out it's course.

We’ve had “kiddie edge” since Kanto; Lavender Town was pretty blunt about death in the Pokémon world.

In Johto we had child abandonment issues (both Silver on a personal level, and the Team Rocket admins on a somewhat more meta level).

RSE fumbled it a bit, but the concept of nature vs. human development was at the core.

The Sinnoh games introduced themes of mental illness with a dusting of the concept of entropy and ennui.

As you’ve pointed out, Gen V explored themes of following extremists, challenging how we view a way of life, exploitation, and religious/political zeal.

Gen VI addressed human worth, the cost of power, and genocide, while also touching on how wealth and political power has sunk its tenterhooks into general society, and how even educated scientists can be manipulated.

Was any of this well-done? Debatable. Have other games and franchises done it better? Absolutely. But I don’t see how making the games more like Shining Times Station (originally religious parables written by a pastor, then turned into a preschool show by an ex-Beatle) would make the games more “adult friendly” and more complex.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Team Rocket admins on a somewhat more meta level

What do you mean?

 

[EmpoleonProd]

lets go are good games if you understand what they were trying to do.

I'm right there with you. LGPE was not intended to be or marketed to be for diehard Pokemon fans that want difficulty, high levels of strategy, and a lot of complex mechanics like EVs. It was simply to bring the level of enjoyment of the Kanto games to newer or more casual fans.

No matter what you say, they were accurate remakes of Yellow, and that's all you can really ask from it. I personally enjoyed my 3D and HD Kanto journey. LGPE are very pretty games, I prefer them even to the aesthetics of SwSh. They kinda gave me ORAS vibes with a slightly more cartoony or chibi look to them vs. the realistic proportions of SM or SwSh. Not that either is inherently good or bad, it's just what I'm so used to from all prior games being sprite based and even the first generation of 3D games keeping the chibi/cartoon style.

Would I have preferred standard mechanics and Sevii Island/Battle Frontier inclusions? Definitely. Was what we got bad? Not at all, just a different style of game and it can't suit everybody.

 

[Sheep40]

We’ve had “kiddie edge” since Kanto; Lavender Town was pretty blunt about death in the Pokémon world.

In Johto we had child abandonment issues (both Silver on a personal level, and the Team Rocket admins on a somewhat more meta level).

RSE fumbled it a bit, but the concept of nature vs. human development was at the core.

The Sinnoh games introduced themes of mental illness with a dusting of the concept of entropy and ennui.

As you’ve pointed out, Gen V explored themes of following extremists, challenging how we view a way of life, exploitation, and religious/political zeal.

Gen VI addressed human worth, the cost of power, and genocide, while also touching on how wealth and political power has sunk its tenterhooks into general society, and how even educated scientists can be manipulated.

Was any of this well-done? Debatable. Have other games and franchises done it better? Absolutely. But I don’t see how making the games more like Shining Times Station (originally religious parables written by a pastor, then turned into a preschool show by an ex-Beatle) would make the games more “adult friendly” and more complex.

Not adult friendly. Just some variety.

 

[zoroarctic]

What do you mean?

Losing Giovanni, and trying to convince him to come back.

 

[Esserise]

First off in a region that's very traditional I don't know why Gamefreak decided to make the protagonist move to Alola and not have been born and raised in the region. Like there's something unsettling about how the first ever champion of Alola ends up being someone from Kanto. I would've even taken the whole "Player character was from Alola originally, the family moved to Kanto but then moved back to Alola" over just making them a foreigner

I think the thematic reason for the player being foreign to Alola is made pretty clear: Sun & Moon have an especially heavy emphasis on the intermingling of different worlds and ways of life and how these interactions can cause people to grow and learn from each other. Alola presents an entirely different culture for the player to experience, while the player's actions change the lives of the people around them. It's also necessarily to achieve the symmetry of the ending - Lillie leaving to visit the region that the player moved to Alola from.

Lillie comes off as extremely hypocritical in that first segment of the game, constantly asking the player (who just MOVED to Alola and would need time to adjust) to help her out with her struggles but then chastising the player in the trainer school about battling with their Pokemon.

I'd hardly call it "chastising" the player. All she says is that she doesn't like watching Pokémon get hurt, which is 100% consistent with why she stole Nebby in the first place. It demonstrates her empathy. And she's exceedingly polite whenever she does as the player for help.

The fact that the game refuses to give her any agency until the end is just infuriating

That's, like... the whole point of the arc. Seeing you grow has an effect on her, slowly giving her the confidence to eventually stand on her own, so of course she's not going to be fully resolute in herself until the climax. But even then I think it's odd to say she has "no agency." No one's making her choices for her. She chooses to rebel against Lusamine by stealing Cosmog. It's her own initiative to go out in search of clues about Nebby's connection to the ruins. It's her own decision to offer herself to Team Skull in order to protect the kids of the Aether House. She always had that willpower inside her, she just had to overcome her personal demons before it could be fully expressed.

Not to mention the sheer idiocy of how Kukui, Burnet, Hala, never once think to catch her a Pokemon so she could defend herself with them having some knowledge that this girl is a runaway with people out to get her.

Being a Trainer is a big responsibility, and if she's not comfortable with the idea of it, then they shouldn't push that on her. I mean, not listening to Lillie's feelings is precisely why Lusamine is the villain - so would it not be a rather mixed signal to have the other adults in her life do that and for it to be a good thing? They listen to what she says and want to let her make her own decisions (again, giving her the agency that her biological mother denied her).

 

[Epic Spheal]

I think the thematic reason for the player being foreign to Alola is made pretty clear: Sun & Moon have an especially heavy emphasis on the intermingling of different worlds and ways of life and how these interactions can cause people to grow and learn from each other. Alola presents an entirely different culture for the player to experience, while the player's actions change the lives of the people around them. It's also necessarily to achieve the symmetry of the ending - Lillie leaving to visit the region that the player moved to Alola from.

I get the theme, but it doesn't make it good in my opinion. Especially for a region based on a state that has had a history of colonization. I don't think it was intentional but it comes off as tone-deaf to have people have not native to region dominate the story and be the drivers of change. Having Lillie and her family as well as the player not be native to the region is something that rubs me the wrong way. Again the player being originally from Alola, moving to Kanto when they were young but then moving back would have still satisfied the different culture experience, but without the tone-deaf implications. Now you have a theme of the player both seeing something new but also reconnecting with traditions, something that's becoming increasingly important in the broader society.

I'd hardly call it "chastising" the player. All she says is that she doesn't like watching Pokémon get hurt, which is 100% consistent with why she stole Nebby in the first place. It demonstrates her empathy. And she's exceedingly polite whenever she does as the player for help.

That's, like... the whole point of the arc. Seeing you grow has an effect on her, slowly giving her the confidence to eventually stand on her own, so of course she's not going to be fully resolute in herself until the climax. But even then I think it's odd to say she has "no agency." No one's making her choices for her. She chooses to rebel against Lusamine by stealing Cosmog. It's her own initiative to go out in search of clues about Nebby's connection to the ruins. It's her own decision to offer herself to Team Skull in order to protect the kids of the Aether House. She always had that willpower inside her, she just had to overcome her personal demons before it could be fully expressed.

People can be polite when asking and still be incredibly selfish, which is how Lillie came off to me, and a few other people I know. She even acknowledges she's being selfish by asking the player to step in for her at Aether paradise.

I have to point out N as a counterexample. He also despises Pokemon being hurt and showed incredible empathy for Pokemon (and had just as an abusive upbringing as she did) but yet he also still pushes past that and uses Pokemon to try to achieve his goals. You can have a character not like something but still do it because they realize there's something greater at stake. It's what made N such a compelling character in my eyes as he went out of his comfort zone. Lillie plays it safe with most of her choices to help Nebby outside of her initial choice to rebel against Lusamine and her finally telling off her mom (and by safe I mean something that allows her to push past uncomfortable feelings)

And then even in the same game see Hau. He has his own issues about taking things (namely Pokemon training to seriously) which stems from being the grandson of Hala and seeing his father crack under the pressure and run off to another region (which sidenote brings me back to the second point I made. There's story potential there on how the traditions of Alola have cons and the characters figuring out how to keep the island traditions while not having such an immense amount of weight someone decides to ditch their family over it. Still in my opinion a way better plot than the Aether family). When Lillie gets taken, Hau beats himself up for it and even mentions that having battles that have serious stakes aren't fun. But he also acknowledges that he needs to get stronger for when those times come and he does so. He pushes past his feelings about not liking to get serious to not make the same mistake of letting someone get endangered. It's not something he wanted to do, but he did it anyways.

It would've been a much more meaningful and less grating arc if well before the end of the story she said "You know, I really don't like seeing Pokemon get hurt, and I'm not sure that's going to change. I don't think I want to be a full time trainer like you [player]. But I realize that Nebby is in danger and that I can't always rely on you since your working on your own journey. So I'm going to try to catch a Pokemon to help Nebby and myself. Can you help me [player]?"

She can still grow and become more confident without waiting until the last moment and without constantly relying on someone else to see her through. They had a chance to show that sometimes we have to put our feelings aside to do what is right and try to be our own saviours (because as much as it's great to receive outside help, outside help isn't always going to come or come in time).

When you compare Lillie to Gladion (being her brother and in the same abusive situation) and N (having an aversion to seeing Pokemon hurt), it just doesn't sit right that the one female character we get in this situation has to be the one that's the most passive and reliant on the player. Her being the damsel just isn't a great character role to be in and it comes off as tone-deaf when we're trying to see more girl characters not be in that role at all (or for the majority of the story).

I can agree agency was not the best choice of words, but in a game series that is doing good about increasing diversity with POC and giving us more prominent female characters, Lillie being so prominent yet so passive for so long is like two steps back in my eyes.

Being a Trainer is a big responsibility, and if she's not comfortable with the idea of it, then they shouldn't push that on her. I mean, not listening to Lillie's feelings is precisely why Lusamine is the villain - so would it not be a rather mixed signal to have the other adults in her life do that and for it to be a good thing? They listen to what she says and want to let her make her own decisions (again, giving her the agency that her biological mother denied her).

But she's also in a situation that's pretty dire. Nebby was in danger as well as Lillie and with that should've come the realization she might have to do something she doesn't want to do if it means achieving a larger goal. Our feelings are important and in an ideal world should never be neglected, but sometimes life doesn't always give you that option to indulge in your feelings.

They could've easily avoided the mixed signal by just having the adults suggest that she try something like catching another Pokemon or even putting Nebby in a Pokeball to release it once the danger had passed (this is something a friend who actually likes Lillie suggested as a way to help mitigate some of her problems in the plot). If they gave her a Pokemon she still had the choice not to train. My main point in my original post (which I realize wasn't worded appropriately) is that the adults look bad for not pointing out that this is a situation where she may have to consider doing something she doesn't really care for in order to truly make a difference.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Diamond and Pearl's climax is honestly pretty anticlimactic. Once you reach the Spear Pillar, it's the lake guardians that stop Cyrus's plan in the end, not you. As a result, when Cyrus battles you, his plan has already been stopped, so there's not much at stake in it beyond your personal safety. And even after that, battling the Legendary Pokémon is completely optional.

 

[Greninjaman]

Diamond and Pearl's climax is honestly pretty anticlimactic. Once you reach the Spear Pillar, it's the lake guardians that stop Cyrus's plan in the end, not you. As a result, when Cyrus battles you, his plan has already been stopped, so there's not much at stake in it beyond your personal safety. And even after that, battling the Legendary Pokémon is completely optional.

Why wouldn't you battle Palkia/Dialga after beating Cyrus? I assumed that you were required to fight it.
Also, what would the player have been able to do in order to stop Cyrus? The player did have a role in stopping Cyrus: They freed the Lake Guardians, which lead to them stopping Cyrus.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Why wouldn't you battle Palkia/Dialga after beating Cyrus? I assumed that you were required to fight it.
Also, what would the player have been able to do in order to stop Cyrus? The player did have a role in stopping Cyrus: They freed the Lake Guardians, which lead to them stopping Cyrus.

I think catching the Legendary is technically optional.

And while it is true that the player saved the day by freeing the lake guardians, during the actual climax, they don't really get to do anything. As opposed to Platinum, where the player must battle Cyrus to stop him and then face Giratina in order to resolve the situation. Feels more like you've actually done something.

 

[Esserise]

I get the theme, but it doesn't make it good in my opinion. Especially for a region based on a state that has had a history of colonization. I don't think it was intentional but it comes off as tone-deaf to have people have not native to region dominate the story and be the drivers of change. Having Lillie and her family as well as the player not be native to the region is something that rubs me the wrong way. Again the player being originally from Alola, moving to Kanto when they were young but then moving back would have still satisfied the different culture experience, but without the tone-deaf implications. Now you have a theme of the player both seeing something new but also reconnecting with traditions, something that's becoming increasingly important in the broader society.

Reconnecting with one's roots can indeed be very important and meaningful, but it’s also a pretty specific experience, whereas Pokémon has an extremely wide audience. Honestly, your proposal strikes me as possibly more ethically questionable than the protagonist being a relatively blank slate, because Pokémon has always tried to create a more immersive experience in terms of the player’s relationship to their in-game avatar, and that has only expanded over the years with the addition of fashion and skin tones, as well as the deletion of references to gender (“Are you a boy or a girl?” is long gone). The goal is for you to put yourself into the story, not to have a specific culture or heritage ascribed to you when that may not match your own experiences. Should we really be put in a position of presuming to be of a heritage we’re not actually a part of? I feel like it would potentially be more offensive to go with that route rather than keeping the player totally neutral and in a position to learn about and interact with a foreign culture.

Besides that, I feel like you really have to read some extra malice into the text to arrive at a colonial narrative. The player’s just moving there. People moving to foreign countries and being welcomed is not uncommon, and I don’t think it’s inherently problematic. Their motives aren’t driven by the imperial evils that animate colonialism. Even the player becoming the first Champion is more a coincidence of timing than anything - they just happened to arrive in the year that Kukui was finishing up the establishment of the League, but we know that in prior years, the island challenge culminated in essentially the same way (a gauntlet against four Trainers to crown the island challenge champion). The difference is little more than a formality, so it’s not like the game is suggesting that this is something the locals could have never achieved themselves.

I have to point out N as a counterexample. He also despises Pokemon being hurt and showed incredible empathy for Pokemon (and had just as an abusive upbringing as she did) but yet he also still pushes past that and uses Pokemon to try to achieve his goals. You can have a character not like something but still do it because they realize there's something greater at stake. It's what made N such a compelling character in my eyes as he went out of his comfort zone. Lillie plays it safe with most of her choices to help Nebby outside of her initial choice to rebel against Lusamine and her finally telling off her mom (and by safe I mean something that allows her to push past uncomfortable feelings)

And N was a different person with a different disposition. He wasn’t someone who started with a stable family life but then wound up being psychologically smothered by his guardian. N was plucked out of the forest, then treated like a king and was well-provided for. He was told he would become a messiah. So of course he’s going to have a different and more resolute outlook from the start. N’s problem is that he can’t understand anything outside of the ultra-filtered worldview he’s been indoctrinated with - it’s kind of a given that he’s going to have a “I’m the Chosen One who will bear the burden and do what needs to be done for the betterment of the world” sort of posture. Lillie’s problem is that her treatment at the hands of Lusamine fucked her up and clouded her sense of confidence and self-assuredness. These two characters are designed to achieve very different narrative goals.

When Lillie gets taken, Hau beats himself up for it and even mentions that having battles that have serious stakes aren't fun. But he also acknowledges that he needs to get stronger for when those times come and he does so. He pushes past his feelings about not liking to get serious to not make the same mistake of letting someone get endangered. It's not something he wanted to do, but he did it anyways.

But he only did so after spending two-thirds of the story not doing that. Because there had to be a gradual build-up to that development and an inciting incident that spurs the change, just as there was with Lillie.

I think catching the Legendary is technically optional.

And while it is true that the player saved the day by freeing the lake guardians, during the actual climax, they don't really get to do anything. As opposed to Platinum, where the player must battle Cyrus to stop him and then face Giratina in order to resolve the situation. Feels more like you've actually done something.

This is precisely my issue with Emerald (or rather, one of my issues with it). Rayquaza just takes over the show and solves everything in an instant, whereas in the originals (and the remakes), you confront the rampaging Groudon/Kyogre yourself, which feels more earned. I thought the remakes's narrative solution to this was pretty clever - they reframe the awakening of Groudon/Kyogre as a tacit attempt by Zinnia to grab Rayquaza's attention by coopting Team Magma/Aqua's existing plans, because she's worried about a bigger threat that's approaching. Presumably though, just setting off Groudon or Kyogre wasn't enough to alert Rayquaza, so we end up having to deal with that issue ourselves, and which leaves the question of what to do about the meteor, and that story is then handled separately in order to give Rayquaza its own room to breathe. Because of this, the games are now in a position to supply real lore about Rayquaza and build suspense leading up to its appearance, rather than just casually tacking it on to the Groudon/Kyogre myth and having one or two NPCs mumble offhandedly about "a big thing in the sky over by Pacifidlog."

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Controversial opinion: I tend to not like inanimate object Pokemon, humanoid Pokemon, or Pokemon such as Mimikyu. I rarely ever use them on my team. I tend to favor more species like Luxray, Salazzle, Cinderace, Arcanine, Lucario, or Lanturn.

 

[BackSet]

Controversial opinion: I tend to not like inanimate object Pokemon, humanoid Pokemon, or Pokemon such as Mimikyu. I rarely ever use them on my team. I tend to favor more species like Luxray, Salazzle, Cinderace, Arcanine, Lucario, or Lanturn.

Uh... two of those are humanoid (three of them depending on how you view salazzle) and one of them is an inanimate object.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Uh... two of those are humanoid (three of them depending on how you view salazzle) and one of them is an inanimate object.

...I think you might be mistaking Lanturn for Chandelure. Lanturn's based on a deep-sea anglerfish, which is very definitely an animal.