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Your favorite Champion?

Who is your favorite Champion?

  • Blue

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Lance

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Red

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Steven

    Votes: 5 11.1%
  • Wallace

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Cynthia

    Votes: 20 44.4%
  • Alder

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Iris

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Diantha

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Trace

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Leon

    Votes: 12 26.7%
  • Mustard

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • Total voters
    45

RK9

Gen V was the peak.
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What do you call someone who beats the Champion? He's a champion, both of his cause as well as by beating the actual titled Champion.
Nope.

He refused the title. It's also never brought up by anyone and he's alsno not adressed by anyone as Champion.
 
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Obviously N! Too bad that he didn't had enough time to change things according to his will or the Pkmn world, starting with Isshu, would've been a better place.
Uh...

He was being used by Ghetsis dude. All him "having time to change things" would have done is result in a fascist regime with thousands of meaningful bonds being forcibly severed so that one asshat could consolidate power for himself.
 
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Nope.

He refused the title. It's also never brought up by anyone and he's alsno not adressed by anyone as Champion.
As a political master once said, "it is not titles that honor men, but men that honor title". If you want to cling to who calls what in a mere frame of time between battles, continue, that won't matter to N being a champion.
Uh...

He was being used by Ghetsis dude. All him "having time to change things" would have done is result in a fascist regime with thousands of meaningful bonds being forcibly severed so that one asshat could consolidate power for himself.
And yet you seem to accept the act of catching Creatures inside Pkballs and use them to mere displays of strengh between humans? Between those two, I go with N's proposal and view.
 
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And yet you seem to accept the act of catching Creatures inside Pkballs and use them to mere displays of strengh between humans? Between those two, I go with N's proposal and view.
It's like you didn't pay any attention to that story at all.

The whole point was that Pokémon battles aren't "mere displays of strength." They're a process through which humans and Pokémon bond with each other and grow stronger together. Which N himself eventually comes to understand. Friendship has been a mechanic in this series since 1998, and it quantifies how much your Pokémon likes you. By and large, Pokémon enjoy being with their Trainers and wouldn't want to be ripped away from them and thrown back into the wild. To do so would be an act of egregious cruelty.
 
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As a political master once said, "it is not titles that honor men, but men that honor title". If you want to cling to who calls what in a mere frame of time between battles, continue, that won't matter to N being a champion.
He refused the title, and just being stronger than a Champion does not make you a Champion if you don't have the title.
 
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It's like you didn't pay any attention to that story at all.

The whole point was that Pokémon battles aren't "mere displays of strength." They're a process through which humans and Pokémon bond with each other and grow stronger together. Which N himself eventually comes to understand. Friendship has been a mechanic in this series since 1998, and it quantifies how much your Pokémon likes you. By and large, Pokémon enjoy being with their Trainers and wouldn't want to be ripped away from them and thrown back into the wild. To do so would be an act of egregious cruelty.
What N comes to terms with, somewhat understands and accepts that there is that side, doesn't mean that he would give up on his goals entirely. What you're saying about Pkmn liking their trainers is just a wrong generalization based on the cheerful landscape that has been painted for most of the time and to which Paul from the anime (and as an example) proves wrong. N and Plasma's goals are beyond that: the Creatures with which we used to sit at the same table are now captured for displays of strengh! Yes, some relations may result in partnership but until then and in other cases, what you have is a Creature captured against its will, removed from its habitat so that a Trainer can go fetch badges. What are the main goals of those going to a Proessor to start their adventures, is it to become nurses, Rangers or something else? No, is to catch Pkmn just for the sake of a Pkdex and so that they may be able to battle and acquire badges, going to the Pkmn League. What is teached at a Trainer's school, is it the relation and the care for Pkmn? No, it's type match-ups, attacks, items-usage and rules about battling.

He refused the title, and just being stronger than a Champion does not make you a Champion if you don't have the title.
Again, you're holding to a mere formality of a person having to accept said title. Then what you call a person who defeated the champion but didn't wanted the title per se? Big Boss? The "one-who-defeated-a-champion-but-doesn't-want-the-title"? Renegade?
You've defeated the champion, you refuse because you don't want, for example, to bother with the shenanigans that comes with it, namely managing a League (which in the case of N goes against his principles and ideology) but you're not a champion? :ROFLMAO:

"Champion: Congratulations, you're now the best trainer in B region. You've surpassed me, the E4, the Gym Leaders and the trainers that stood in your way. And now you're the...
Candidate: How much?
Champion: Say what!?
Candidate: How much do I earn for being the champion?
Champion: There's no payment besides the prize money I gave you!
Candidate: Oh, ok...then... I'm not interested...Thanks but no thanks. I just though that by being the best I'd get recognition, love and an income for life or at least until someone better comes. No problem, I'm going back to being the janitor at Silph Co. but at least I get to be called champion.
Champion: No, if you're as good as cleaning as you're in battle, you can be the champion of janitors but not THE champion, at least if you don't accept the position. If you want the benefits you have to accept the duties and also play a part in HR by managing that creepy E4 bunch, as well as the annual budget for the League, sponsorships, etc.":sneaky:

PS: Just like Steven in Emerald is a champion, so to is N! Steven was the strongest and just let the title go, N simply didn't accept it in the first place, but that doesn't take N's merit. Both were the strongest trainers and so...champions.
 
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Then what you call a person who defeated the champion but didn't wanted the title per se?
A regular Pokémon Trainer. That simple. Steven in Emerald was a former Champion, and he didn't use the "Champion" Trainer class. He's just an ordinary Pokémon Trainer without any special titles.
 
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While Diantha is waifu, I had to go with my gut and vote for Leon.
 
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Wow, the legend is in second place.
 
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A regular Pokémon Trainer. That simple. Steven in Emerald was a former Champion, and he didn't use the "Champion" Trainer class. He's just an ordinary Pokémon Trainer without any special titles.
First of all, Steven didn't used the "Champion" trainer class (or better, GF didn't used it) because at the time of battling, he wasn't the current champion, and it would cause confusion with the champion at the time.
Let's imagine that his trainer class was "Former Champion Steven"? Would you raise any questions? Probably not and why? Because he's in the recorded history of champions. If you remove the question of wanting to know/qualifying who's the current and past ones, what's the word that remain? "Champion"! No one that speaks of Steven after playing RS speaks of him as a regular trainer. He's a champion, even if a former one. He achieved so much that his legacy will endure.
It's like calling someone that won a VGC a regular trainer. No, he's a champion! In the year he won, he faced all the challenges and won. He may not be the current champion, but he's a champion. By your thought, every Team (Something) Leader is not evil because "evil" isn't included in their Trainer class, when they're evil because of what they do. And speaking of leaders (not the game's), true leaders don't need titles, you can have people in leadership position (and that have a title) and not being true leaders but also the reverse.

And so, we're back at discussing if N is a champion or not.
By your logic, a loser, even if he wins against the ultimate winner must accept a title of "winner" to be a winner, despite having...you know...winning!? Just like this is ridiculous, so to would it be if someone dies before having the change to say yes and you do not recognise it as the best, as a champion simply because he died before saying yes, despite winning the battle.
Holding to a title and its acceptance is like saying that Alder is better than N, because N refused the title and so that makes Alder immediately stronger because he retained/has the title. What must be discussed is content, substance and not the package, not having a title. We're speaking of champions, but then how do you justify that certain Pkmn are called "legendary"!? It's a class of Pkmn and it's not something that the creatures accept...they don't cry in acceptance nor do they express any will and yet they're called that way. Why? Because their substance is what matters and their substance means that they're above other Pkmn, because of their stats, their rarity, their folklore.
This is even more clear when speaking of pseudo-legendaries? How do you spot them when they don't have any special music, don't are included in myths as a clue to being called legendary (and removing the mere hint that is their place/number in the Dex)? You go see their substance, the fact that they're above average, despite not having someone giving then monikers before their name or giving a clue to what they are in saying that they were involved in certain moments.
 
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And so, we're back at discussing if N is a champion or not.
By your logic, a loser, even if he wins against the ultimate winner must accept a title of "winner" to be a winner, despite having...you know...winning!? Just like this is ridiculous, so to would it be if someone dies before having the change to say yes and you do not recognise it as the best, as a champion simply because he died before saying yes, despite winning the battle.
Holding to a title and its acceptance is like saying that Alder is better than N, because N refused the title and so that makes Alder immediately stronger because he retained/has the title. What must be discussed is content, substance and not the package, not having a title. We're speaking of champions, but then how do you justify that certain Pkmn are called "legendary"!? It's a class of Pkmn and it's not something that the creatures accept...they don't cry in acceptance nor do they express any will and yet they're called that way. Why? Because their substance is what matters and their substance means that they're above other Pkmn, because of their stats, their rarity, their folklore.
Just because Alder kept the title doesn't mean he's stronger. That's the whole point. N didn't need the title, because just defeating Alder proved that he was stronger than him. That's all N needed.
 
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Just because Alder kept the title doesn't mean he's stronger. That's the whole point. N didn't need the title, because just defeating Alder proved that he was stronger than him. That's all N needed.
And with that you're going full circle to the start of our discussion, because a champion is someone strong that defeats the strongest trainer, independently of accepting the title. If your pool's question was "who's your favorite formal (as in having accepted that position and acting as such) Champion" then N wouldn't rightfully be an option, but your question is "Who's your favorite Champion" as in the strongest trainer, that is usually proved through a competition of strengh, which N won.
 
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I could be wrong, but I don’t think N even went through and collected the badges, did he? You have to do that before officially challenging the Elite Four and Champ. Otherwise, anyone who just randomly walked up to Alder and beat him in a battle would be considered a “Champion”. If you don’t have the title, then you really aren’t one. You’re just a strong Pokémon trainer.

For example (recent anime spoiler):
Leon defeated Lance in a battle. That doesn’t make Leon the Indigo Champion.
 

RK9

Gen V was the peak.
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If HGSS is to be trusted, Ethan defeated Red. Does this now make Ethan a Champion by your logic as well? (Since Red in-universe is basically built up to be insanely strong.) By extend of this logic, Red is defo stronger than some Champions (Looking at Diantha in particular).

Does this make him automatically the Kalos Champion? It doesn't.

N isn't the Champion. Never has been. No matter how many hoops you try to jump through to make it happen.
 
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What N comes to terms with with somewhat understands and accepts that there is that side, doesn't mean that he would give up on his goals entirely.
You are right that he doesn't change his goals entirely. But he does cease his crusade against Pokémon battling specifically.

> "It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything. There's no way a person like me, someone who understands only Pokémon— No, actually... I didn't understand them, either. No way could I measure up to you, when you had met so many Pokémon and were surrounded by friends..."

N's conception of Pokémon being used as tools was warped by Ghetsis, who deliberately exposed him exclusively to Pokémon that had been subjected to cruel slave labor by Team Plasma itself. His entire perception was borne of brainwashing. But reality, the outside world, was nothing like that, and as soon as N ventured into that world, he began to see how wrong he was, and that feeling only continued to grow as he was exposed to more and more beneficial human/Pokémon relationships, which ultimately culminates in him admitting that he didn't even truly understand why Pokémon wanted, either.

> By being with Pokémon, humans can continue toward new horizons. By being with humans, Pokémon can exhibit their true power. That's what Zekrom/Reshiram taught me: the ideal/truth for Pokémon and me. And someday both ideals and truth/truth and ideals will come together... Then Pokémon and humans will be freed from the oppression of Poké Balls."

> "Someday... Pokémon and humans will be bound together without Poké Balls. They will simply trust and help one another. Make that kind of world."


This is him having come around from his previous belief that Pokémon needed to be separated from humans in order to "regain" their lost power. Now he sees that being with humans brings out their power more than anything, and redirects his ideological campaign to be against Poké Balls, rather than battling, because Poké Balls are a lingering symbol of inequality - a tool used to capture, even if the Pokémon in question may indeed want to join that human. What N wants now is to cut out the middleman and create a world where humans and Pokémon can communicate their wants and needs to each other directly, which is a social advancement that his abilities make him uniquely positioned to facilitate.

> "Pokémon battles do nothing more than hurt Pokémon... That's how I understood it, and that's why I hated battles. But it's not that simple. Pokémon battles decide winners and losers, it's true. Yet they do so much more. Your Pokémon! You! Your opponents! And their Pokémon! Everyone can see what wonderful things the others have to contribute! That's right! Accepting different ideas--different beings--changes the world like a chemical reaction! Pokémon battles are like a catalyst: a small component that leads to big changes! My friend Zekrom/Reshiram taught me that... And it's the formula I've derived from traveling the world. I want you to think for yourself what it means."

And N's saying here that the way he used to view battles was flawed, and that there are many benefits to them which help people and Pokémon better understand one another.

somewhat understands and accepts that there is that side, doesn't mean that he would give up on his goals entirely. What you're saying about Pkmn liking their trainers is just a wrong generalization based on the cheerful landscape that has been painted for most of the time and to which Paul from the anime (and as an example) proves wrong. N and Plasma's goals are beyond that: the Creatures with which we used to sit at the same table are now captured for displays of strengh! Yes, some relations may result in partnership but until then and in other cases, what you have is a Creature captured against its will, removed from its habitat so that a Trainer can go fetch badges. What are the main goals of those going to a Proessor to start their adventures, is it to become nurses, Rangers or something else? No, is to catch Pkmn just for the sake of a Pkdex and so that they may be able to battle and acquire badges, going to the Pkmn League. What is teached at a Trainer's school, is it the relation and the care for Pkmn? No, it's type match-ups, attacks, items-usage and rules about battling.
Most relations result in partnership, not just some. Literally the vast majority of human/Pokémon relationships depicted in the series, regardless of medium, have been positive, mutually beneficial things. People like Paul (I guess, I'm not familiar with anime continuity and don't really care about it) are in relatively short supply - they are the statistical outliers. Time and time and time again, the games have been heavily critical of Trainers who pursue strength for its own sake. That's why Silver exists, and why Cheren exists. We could not possibly be beaten any more over the head than we already are with the idea that Trainers have a responsibility to do right by their Pokémon, and that Pokémon lend their power to us if they approve of us and believe in the goals we wish to achieve.

As the protagonist, yes, we seek to obtain a Pokémon so that we can become a Trainer, because that's just how the game is structured. But the fact that we do see so many other professions in the world which demonstrate alternative ways for people and Pokémon to work together illustrates that battling is not all there is to it. I mean, it's right there in Oak's first dialogue:

> "Hello there! Welcome to the world of Pokémon! My name is Oak! People call me the Pokémon Prof! This world is inhabited by creatures called Pokémon! For some people, Pokémon are pets. Others use them for fights. Myself… I study Pokémon as a profession."

There are also plenty of other forms of competition throughout the series. Contests, Musicals, etc. Pokéstar Studios isn't even competitive, but it's another alternative form of coexistence.

I'd also contest the idea that Pokémon are captured "against their will." Certainly, yes, that probably does happen at times, especially with criminal organizations. But there's also evidence that wild Pokémon choose to join up with Trainers, of their own volition. The reciprocation ceremony in Alola. Passimian evaluating the Trainer who's attempting to catch them, by analyzing their throwing form. The Unova dragons themselves choosing a hero to align themselves with.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think N even went through and collected the badges, did he? You have to do that before officially challenging the Elite Four and Champ.
I don't think I've ever been entirely clear on whether N was collecting Badges or not. Probably the foremost evidence that he didn't is that his name does not appear on the Gyms' Certified Trainers statues, whereas you, Cheren, and Bianca all do.

But at the same time, he definitely does challenge the Elite Four, which I don't think you're supposed to be able to do without collecting the Badges - that's why they have the Badge Check Gates. It would be one thing if he just flew right up to Alder's doorstep and challenged him directly, but why go through the traditional pomp and circumstance of defeating the Elite Four?

If HGSS is to be trusted, Ethan defeated Red. Does this now make Ethan a Champion by your logic as well? (Since Red in-universe is basically built up to be insanely strong.) By extend of this logic, Red is defo stronger than some Champions (Looking at Diantha in particular).
(I agree with your overall point that N did not hold the title, but isn't Ethan vs. Red kind of an odd example since Ethan had indeed become Champion prior to battling Red?)
 
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Since Kukui doesn't count, I will give my vote to the second end game boss I have most trouble with: Cynthia.
 
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Cynthia, with Steven at a very close second place.
 
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