Your favorite Champion?

[Nightmare Marill]

Cynthia and Iris. The guy champions are too boring to me for some reason.

 

[Ebail]

So for me it's Cynthia like many others. From her design, to music, to her team which offered a real challenge it easily made her the best champion to me.

Although coming in a semi close second place is Blue. I liked Blue, despite the fact that you already face him several times throughout the game because he seemed fitting as champion. As your rival, and your friend (sort of) in the games it all made sense. He always wanted to get the edge on you, whether it was trying to get his starter before you (with succeeding in that regard in Yellow) and then taking a Pokemon that would always be strong against your starter. Or in the case of Eevee evolving his starter based on prior battles with you. To ultimately making sure he became champion before you got there and could yourself. It just felt like a fitting end running into him as champion, and then you getting to become champion by knocking him off of his throne. He was the quintessential a-hole, and so it just seemed right with him being the champion you get to beat to win your championship.

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

You are right that he doesn't change his goals entirely. But he does cease his crusade against Pokémon battling specifically.

> "It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything. There's no way a person like me, someone who understands only Pokémon— No, actually... I didn't understand them, either. No way could I measure up to you, when you had met so many Pokémon and were surrounded by friends..."

N's conception of Pokémon being used as tools was warped by Ghetsis, who deliberately exposed him exclusively to Pokémon that had been subjected to cruel slave labor by Team Plasma itself. His entire perception was borne of brainwashing. But reality, the outside world, was nothing like that, and as soon as N ventured into that world, he began to see how wrong he was, and that feeling only continued to grow as he was exposed to more and more beneficial human/Pokémon relationships, which ultimately culminates in him admitting that he didn't even truly understand why Pokémon wanted, either.

> By being with Pokémon, humans can continue toward new horizons. By being with humans, Pokémon can exhibit their true power. That's what Zekrom/Reshiram taught me: the ideal/truth for Pokémon and me. And someday both ideals and truth/truth and ideals will come together... Then Pokémon and humans will be freed from the oppression of Poké Balls."

> "Someday... Pokémon and humans will be bound together without Poké Balls. They will simply trust and help one another. Make that kind of world."

This is him having come around from his previous belief that Pokémon needed to be separated from humans in order to "regain" their lost power. Now he sees that being with humans brings out their power more than anything, and redirects his ideological campaign to be against Poké Balls, rather than battling, because Poké Balls are a lingering symbol of inequality - a tool used to capture, even if the Pokémon in question may indeed want to join that human. What N wants now is to cut out the middleman and create a world where humans and Pokémon can communicate their wants and needs to each other directly, which is a social advancement that his abilities make him uniquely positioned to facilitate.

> "Pokémon battles do nothing more than hurt Pokémon... That's how I understood it, and that's why I hated battles. But it's not that simple. Pokémon battles decide winners and losers, it's true. Yet they do so much more. Your Pokémon! You! Your opponents! And their Pokémon! Everyone can see what wonderful things the others have to contribute! That's right! Accepting different ideas--different beings--changes the world like a chemical reaction! Pokémon battles are like a catalyst: a small component that leads to big changes! My friend Zekrom/Reshiram taught me that... And it's the formula I've derived from traveling the world. I want you to think for yourself what it means."

And N's saying here that the way he used to view battles was flawed, and that there are many benefits to them which help people and Pokémon better understand one another.



Most relations result in partnership, not just some. Literally the vast majority of human/Pokémon relationships depicted in the series, regardless of medium, have been positive, mutually beneficial things. People like Paul (I guess, I'm not familiar with anime continuity and don't really care about it) are in relatively short supply - they are the statistical outliers. Time and time and time again, the games have been heavily critical of Trainers who pursue strength for its own sake. That's why Silver exists, and why Cheren exists. We could not possibly be beaten any more over the head than we already are with the idea that Trainers have a responsibility to do right by their Pokémon, and that Pokémon lend their power to us if they approve of us and believe in the goals we wish to achieve.

As the protagonist, yes, we seek to obtain a Pokémon so that we can become a Trainer, because that's just how the game is structured. But the fact that we do see so many other professions in the world which demonstrate alternative ways for people and Pokémon to work together illustrates that battling is not all there is to it. I mean, it's right there in Oak's first dialogue:

> "Hello there! Welcome to the world of Pokémon! My name is Oak! People call me the Pokémon Prof! This world is inhabited by creatures called Pokémon! For some people, Pokémon are pets. Others use them for fights. Myself… I study Pokémon as a profession."

There are also plenty of other forms of competition throughout the series. Contests, Musicals, etc. Pokéstar Studios isn't even competitive, but it's another alternative form of coexistence.

I'd also contest the idea that Pokémon are captured "against their will." Certainly, yes, that probably does happen at times, especially with criminal organizations. But there's also evidence that wild Pokémon choose to join up with Trainers, of their own volition. The reciprocation ceremony in Alola. Passimian evaluating the Trainer who's attempting to catch them, by analyzing their throwing form. The Unova dragons themselves choosing a hero to align themselves with.



I don't think I've ever been entirely clear on whether N was collecting Badges or not. Probably the foremost evidence that he didn't is that his name does not appear on the Gyms' Certified Trainers statues, whereas you, Cheren, and Bianca all do.

But at the same time, he definitely does challenge the Elite Four, which I don't think you're supposed to be able to do without collecting the Badges - that's why they have the Badge Check Gates. It would be one thing if he just flew right up to Alder's doorstep and challenged him directly, but why go through the traditional pomp and circumstance of defeating the Elite Four?



(I agree with your overall point that N did not hold the title, but isn't Ethan vs. Red kind of an odd example since Ethan had indeed become Champion prior to battling Red?)

The Pkmn that were shown to N by Ghetsis may not have been subjected to slave labor by N. Supposedly N can speak with Pkmn and surely he would know about it from those Pkmn and stopped it. It can be pointed that there is a major flaw in how N is the King and yet the Grunts use Pkmn and act more in their own profit (or Ghetsis) than actual liberation and that Plasma's castle is built and apparently he doesn't know how it was made.

Taking into consideration that N actually expresses what he saw during his journey, I can't say that he (luckily) had seen only good experiences but taking into consideration that Plasma is the "evil team" of that region and that he didn't even looked at his own structure, I believe that if he were to see the actions of Team Rocket, he would have other opinion.

N accepted the outcome of battles when speaking about the bond between trainers and Pkmn and that he didn't saw that before. Nevertheless and like you've said, there are indeed other means of interaction, but the main focus is still battling, a show of power (it's just like in real life, despite being a wide range of sports, some gain the most attention and lead to shameful situations...think of soccer, scandals of corruption, hooligans). Of course that part of it is due to how the game is structured but we now can see it in Galar and how ridiculous that "show" is, with gigant Pkmn in stadiums full of people cheering. N accepted that good things can come out of battles and to him that was a shock taking into consideration the bubble that he was put in during his growth, but like he said he's going to be a bridge between Pkmn and humans and that doesn't mean that he stopped wanting the liberation of Pkmn, if not forcefully then by people's choice. Battles are bound to happen, even in nature between Pkmn but that doesn't mean that it has to be a show, it doesn't mean that Pkballs are needed, because N also knows that there where times (before Pkballs existed) when that wasn't the case.

As for the Pkmn being captured against their will, yes there are cases where they join the team and one of the Sinnoh myths shows that Pkmn will appear to help humans but we here have three options:
- we go with the games only, and we see very few examples of Pkmn willing to join the player since most of the times you go into grass to weaken and throw balls (look at the Tamers in Gen. I and their whip...and they aren't "evil" nor part of TRocket);
- we go with the anime and that has loads of examples of Pkmn having an option but also of poaching;
- or we mix the two and somewhat get a balance between both because each are structured/restricted in certain ways (the anime to show a character as more kind and the games with the purpose of filling the Dex and level up, to the point where we are catchers of Legendary Pkmn with man-made ball and shrink even almighty Arceus).
I believe that after meeting BW's player, N will want balance but with cooperation, in order to fulfill his role as bridge, namely having in mind that he can speak with Pkmn.

I can't speak for your Passimian example, but for the others: to align doesn't mean that they'll be in possession of, what it means is that they were allies (it would be interesting to delve deeper into the battle connected to the Musketeer trio to know how extremist it was on the ranks from each side, namely to know if there were humans fighting in the Pkmn side and vice-versa instead of just "Pkmn vs Humans"). The ceremony itself shows that the Pkmn have an option of which trainer but nothing more...they're part of a system to grant starter Pkmn to trainers, so they didn't have the option between being wild or not...just look at the anime episode "A Mudkip Mission" to see how they're bred to be used and how the Pkmn League "sponsors" it.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think N even went through and collected the badges, did he? You have to do that before officially challenging the Elite Four and Champ. Otherwise, anyone who just randomly walked up to Alder and beat him in a battle would be considered a “Champion”. If you don’t have the title, then you really aren’t one. You’re just a strong Pokémon trainer.

For example (recent anime spoiler):

Spoiler

Leon defeated Lance in a battle. That doesn’t make Leon the Indigo Champion.

It doesn't make Leon the Indigo Champion but reinforces his status as champion among champions. As for walking up against champions, I don't recall seeing that aside from E4 members and anime protagonists (that If I recall correctly, failed!), but yes, someone who could beat (fairly) a Champion is a champion, because like I've said in this thread, we're speaking about power not the acceptation of a title.

The badges are part of a system that whishes to maintain order, nothing more. Otherwise it would be a worldwide battle royale, something akin to what is shown in the anime with Ash and the world ranking. It's just like setting up that you can only have six Pkmn! Why six and not few or more? If a Trainer can only have six Pkmn, then what makes the Trainer a Trainer in comparison to Professors holding and handling an insane large amounts of Pkmn? Establishment of rules, but to break those rules you don't need to follow them, hence why N went directly to the source of power. It's like calling someone in a bad way a "rebel", it's done when in comparison with the establishment but if this establishment is deemed as wrong, then despite you being a rebel, you're fighting for something good (think of resistance movements in WWII).

If HGSS is to be trusted, Ethan defeated Red. Does this now make Ethan a Champion by your logic as well? (Since Red in-universe is basically built up to be insanely strong.) By extend of this logic, Red is defo stronger than some Champions (Looking at Diantha in particular).

Does this make him automatically the Kalos Champion? It doesn't.

N isn't the Champion. Never has been. No matter how many hoops you try to jump through to make it happen.

Same as my reply to swigtgallade46: the battle between Ethan and Red doesn't make him a formal champion because he's already the Indigo Champion when going to Red but it reinforces his status as someone who beated two champions. If, when battling Red, he hadn't been the Indigo champion, by my previous arguments, he would be a champion.

 

[RK9]

You can type as much text as you want, but the fact N straight up refuses the title ensures it so he isn't a Champion. He is Champion-level in terms of power, yes, but that doesn't make him the Champion.

Adding to that, to be recognized as Champion you need to have collected all the Badges in the region, beat the Elite Four AND beat the Champion and then accept the title. He already didn't do the former, he didn't the last one either, so he can't be the Champion, at all.

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

You can type as much text as you want, but the fact N straight up refuses the title ensures it so he isn't a Champion. He is Champion-level in terms of power, yes, but that doesn't make him the Champion.

Adding to that, to be recognized as Champion you need to have collected all the Badges in the region, beat the Elite Four AND beat the Champion and then accept the title. He already didn't do the former, he didn't the last one either, so he can't be the Champion, at all.

And with your answer I prove my point: like FinnishPokéFan92, you're holding to a formality not only of having a title but accepting it, you're holding to what has been established so far and you don't even have the sight to consider that there may be other points of view about what makes a champion, only lifting the veil to admiti it in terms of power but making a conclusion only based on what you have as criteria. The fact that I prefer to go by strengh doesn't mean that you're wrong in going by formality but the reverse is also true.
Also, it's not a question of typing a certain amount of text, is about presenting arguments to present my point and not being blind and sure that I'm the only one correct and that everyone else that doesn't follow my line of thought is wrong. Learn how to make a healthy discussion of ideas and present points of view.
To yet again prove my argument on why I believe N can be considered a Champion and why I prefer the power shown and not the title held, I'll give you an example of nobility: it's people's actions and traits that make a person noble but I must also accept and recognize that besides this, nobility can be obtained by buying said title and at the end of the day I recognize both but prefer to give more value to nobility earned by acts and that pertains a certain person that by the wealth used to get one and the system of nobility associated with monarchy. Why? Because this last one is only a noble as long as there's a system that values formality while a noble person will be recognized as such in most circunstances simply by doing what's perceived as noble actions. Am I wrong? No. Are the ones that prefer to buy wrong? No. There's more to it than just a simple way, there's more than black or white...too bad that you didn't get the one of the games' message.

 

[RK9]

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

And with your answer I prove my point: like FinnishPokéFan92, you're holding to a formality not only of having a title but accepting it, you're holding to what has been established so far and you don't even have the sight to consider that there may be other points of view about what makes a champion, only lifting the veil to admiti it in terms of power but making a conclusion only based on what you have as criteria. The fact that I prefer to go by strengh doesn't mean that you're wrong in going by formality but the reverse is also true.
Also, it's not a question of typing a certain amount of text, is about presenting arguments to present my point and not being blind and sure that I'm the only one correct and that everyone else that doesn't follow my line of thought is wrong. Learn how to make a healthy discussion of ideas and present points of view.
To yet again prove my argument on why I believe N can be considered a Champion and why I prefer the power shown and not the title held, I'll give you an example of nobility: it's people's actions and traits that make a person noble but I must also accept and recognize that besides this, nobility can be obtained by buying said title and at the end of the day I recognize both but prefer to give more value to nobility earned by acts and that pertains a certain person that by the wealth used to get one and the system of nobility associated with monarchy. Why? Because this last one is only a noble as long as there's a system that values formality while a noble person will be recognized as such in most circunstances simply by doing what's perceived as noble actions. Am I wrong? No. Are the ones that prefer to buy wrong? No. There's more to it than just a simple way, there's more than black or white...too bad that you didn't get the one of the games' message.

What you feel does not change the rock-solid facts that a Champion needs to 1) defeat the current Champion, and 2) formally accept the title afterwards. Power alone matters not.

 

[Sheep]

Steven and Cynthia! the former had such a good glowup in ORAS haha, and I always loved him even before that! he had a cool design and it was amusing to see him nerding out about stones. Cynthia is very pretty and was a huge challenge for me in DPPt. runner up trophy goes to Leon though, I've been warming up to him lately... and Mustard, but mostly for his cool battle music.

 

[Fan of Jarrus]

Steven and Cynthia! the former had such a good glowup in ORAS haha, and I always loved him even before that! he had a cool design and it was amusing to see him nerding out about stones. Cynthia is very pretty and was a huge challenge for me in DPPt. runner up trophy goes to Leon though, he's been warming up to me lately... and Mustard, but mostly for his cool battle music.

The King has been warming up to you?

 

[Sheep]

The King has been warming up to you?

lol, oops, hadn't realized I wrote it backwards!

on that note, I forgot to mention Lance, my OG favorite. little girl me had a crush on him haha.

Unova is one of my favorite regions ever and bw/bw2 were wonderful games, but they're the champions I enjoy least by far. ): I really liked Iris' battle music but I'm still a little bummed I didn't like the champions there as much as I could have. Alder is unfortunately probably my least favorite.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Alder is unfortunately probably my least favorite.

Alder's strength lies in his involvement in the story, the battle with him is just bonus.

 

[swiftgallade46]

The gym badges and E4 are part of the Champion title. Randomly beating someone who happened to be champion at the time does not give someone the title.

If a football team were to defeat the 2020 Kansas City Chiefs, they wouldn’t suddenly be considered the new Super Bowl champions. You have to go through the whole season. The same applies here.

Champion status versus Champion-like skills are two different things as well. You need both to be the actual Champion.

 

[Sheep]

Alder's strength lies in his involvement in the story, the battle with him is just bonus.

oh, I'm aware - I was dedicated to the gen V games and paid very close attention to almost everything. I liked how relaxed and fun he was, but regardless, he didn't leave as much of an impact on me as champions like Steven and Cynthia. still, I'll be replaying the games soon and perhaps that will change!

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

Spoiler

And that's your intelectual maturity, a cheap gif.

What you feel does not change the rock-solid facts that a Champion needs to 1) defeat the current Champion, and 2) formally accept the title afterwards. Power alone matters not.

Yet again, yes, those are the formal criteria that ingame are required alone and that you so blindingly accept and follow. I'm speaking about something else that is beyond that. If you also don't accept other interpretations of what being a champion means instead of formalities, then stick to to your "rock-solid facts".

N is a champion!

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Yet again, yes, those are the formal criteria that ingame are required alone and that you so blindingly accept and follow. I'm speaking about something else that is beyond that. If you also don't accept other interpretations of what being a champion means instead of formalities, then stick to to your "rock-solid facts".

I say that because the definition of a Champion is those terms: must defeat a Champion and accept the position of Champion. Just being as strong as a Champion isn't enough. There is no other definition of it.

Besides, as it's been said several times already here, N refused the title. So no. He may be as strong as a Champion, but he's not one.

And that's your intelectual maturity, a cheap gif.

I don't think that's very polite.

 

[RK9]

@Leaf_Ranger

It says a lot more about you than about me that you need to attack people on their so called "maturity".

You are the one who got facts thrown at their face, yet you stubbornly jump through hoops to make your headcanon an actual thing and when people give up because a wall is more willing to actually give in to that they were wrong in an arguement, you decide to attack personally cause you know your digging a losing hole the further you go.

Classy, real classy.

 

[Matleo]

Cynthia vs Leon? Anime battle? Seriously. Alder is also in yop 3 tier here.

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

"'Eyes brimming with dark flame, this man rejected everything other than himself in order to bring about one singular justice...' That's part of a novel I'm writing. I was inspired by the challenger who was just here, and somehow I got a little sad... Excuse me. You're a challenger, right? I'm the Elite Four's Ghost-type Pokémon user, Shauntal, and I shall be your opponent." by Shauntal.

"Man oh man... What is going on today? Challengers coming one right after another. Well, no matter. I am Grimsley of the Elite Four, and I will fulfill my duty to be your opponent." by Grimsley (Cheren only arrived later, so the protagonist is the second person and the first was N.

I've recently replayed White, found the above so this to correct and add that N didn't went directly for the Champion, despite what he has trying to achieve, he still abide by the rules and battled the E4 before Alder. So, not only the show of strenght was made with the defeat of the champion but he also obliterated the E4 and conquered the title despite not accepting it.

 

[Daenerys]

Unpopular choice maybe but I'll say Iris. I loved her BW2 design and how she used a mixed team of Dragon types and other Dragon-esque Pokemon. Lance is my second choice and Steven comes third.

 

[mikechuu]

I like a lot of them tbh. If I had to choose one, I would choose Cynthia. She really deserves the title of champion. I would also say Steven and Iris too.