I do not like this idea of justifying a town lynch because "they are statistically more likely to be town". The way it is written here and in context, it feels like a way to justify a mislynch. Aflame's progression leading up to the lynch leads me to believe they thought both ZMS and S&N would flip scum.
This quote is important because there is clearly an internal conflict going on. Officer Snake does not want to vote for ZMS, yet Kokirion does (apparently). This internal conflict is also unexpected to me if they are town- confbias suggests that Kokirion is pushing Officer Snake to bus ZMS, which Officer Snake is loathe to do, simply preferring to distance from ZMS and then lynch S&N as wolves, whereas as town they would simply be arguing about which to vote for which both seems uncalled for this early and would have ramifications that would be noticeable from their tone later on (it seems they are not constantly at odds with each other at this point, that is). No real conclusion can be pulled from that.
This was brought up earlier- this does look like TMI regarding ZMS.
Read: "why am I suspicious?"
Read: "why am I suspicious?" This post is also bad because it is either full of shade towards thesunspear or it is full of Aflame being extremely worried about looking suspicious.
This is also technically shade, but it is also a glimpse into Aflame's worldview, as they are one of the players in this game who have delineated into S&N wagon=scummy/ZMS wagon=towny. I think it is an important piece of the puzzle.
I'm highlighting this quote because it barely leaks an interesting mindset regarding ZMS. At the time the wagon was 3 players on S&N compared to five on ZMS. Not only is this vote on S&N from T&H here not necessarily bad, it almost looks like Aflame is anxious about ZMS flipping and any opposition to the wagon is uncalled for. More shade on T&H too.
This is the icing on the cake as Duskfall has already explained that as he hasn't been on he hasn't seen the votecount and Aflame is still questioning it. Yes, Dusk is possibly lying (which apparently makes him scum? I guess scum would lie about it) or he's telling the truth, WHICH IS THE TRUTH. I am so flipping frustrated with some of the players in this game. Aflame is one of them for this reason. We can see here that their "reads" are locked in, and everything they see at that point is just evidence to serve toward that conclusion. They are locked into confirmation bias and it is part of the reason I do not really want to participate in this game right now, because I will not be convincing a large portion of players in this game of anything- they already have their suppositions and will not listen to reason. Proof is the conversation that immediately follows, where T&H literally call Aflame out on their confirmation bias ("So I am scum either way") and Aflame calls it OMGUS.
This is where the tunneling begins. They are focused on me and my reads rather than anyone else and their reads. I did not initially respond to this post because they were wrong- I had explained how I felt about both MNH and RR at the time, and felt the reads were pure enough for the town circle. It seems not immediately bending over backwards to respond to cruddy allegations is a mistake on bulbagarden, one that I keep making.
I literally cannot respond to every single point in this post. That is the insidious purpose behind wallposting. You will never ever be able to respond to every single point unless you divvy it up into smaller quotes. Oh, is this what you do anyway? You know what makes that easier? Multiposting! Checkmate. Quit wallposting. T&H is right, it's anti-town. I hope you enjoy this.Hey y’all, here I am! Sorry I was absent so much in the last half of D1.
I reaaaally was!
D’aww, I’m touched. No reason to worry.
Preparing for and subsequently celebrating Easter/my brother’s birthday took a lot of my time. Holy heck, all those pages to catch up on...anyways, I’d like to express my satisfaction in how the lynch turned out! But R.I.P. S&N. I’ll admit that I was seriously Town reading Bok though. now excuse me while I delete the parts of this post I prepared in advance about why I thought this.
Oh, you weren’t kidding.
I’ll be watching out for any defenses of Zinn Mask Salesman from D1 while reading back, as well as ZMS’ assessments of others.
Dum dum, though not the first to vote ZMS, were the first to call out ZMS for this, which strengthens my Town read on them. Kudos, ya dum dums!
The point is that reaching such a threshold is not more important than having time to discuss things, and arguing against an easier-to-trigger hammer (or any hammer at all) isn’t scummy.
As a general point, the second paragraph makes sense to me. But knowing now that Zinn was Mafia makes me wonder whether the fact that Aflame was the only person they critiqued with this post means that Aflame is actually Town. Actually, reading forward, this isn’t the only time ZMS throws shade on Aflame, which occurs more after Aflame calls out ZMS here:
^ Koki is one of Aflame’s heads, so there’s an instance of the continued shade thrown on them by ZMS.
This bit from T&H strikes me as odd. Not just for calling wall posts inherently anti-Town, but because it looks like they’re basically saying they’re going to avoid making long posts for the sake of not looking scummy. Yes, image is important for any alignment of player, but when trying not to look scummy takes priority over doing something that could be helpful, that makes me leery of you. Could this also mean that T&H is afraid that by making longer posts, they’ll have a greater chance of scumslipping? It’s something to think about.
I will concede, however, I like their calling out of spear’s premature “Town core” here. (Speaking of, spear, it’s not so much acknowledging that you’re Town [if you even are Town] in the thread that people can see as suspicious, but the fact that placing yourself in a “Town core” suggests that the other players should automatically make that assumption.) So maybe it’s not that T&H have done anything inherently scummy, just that I personally find their aversion to wallposts completely absurd, and for that reason their posts about that felt off to me.
Agree with this calling out of sunspear’s weird supposed attempt at generating activity.
So ZMS “suspected,” and later voted, S&N when challenged...makes me think they might have been trying to go for an understandable but easy mislynch.
Lol, you and I both, host.
Heck, you’re dead scum, and I feel ya here. The frustration is real!!
Maybe it’s the fact that I was gone for a like day that was compounding my frustration with all the tiny, numerous shitposts I had to suffer through, but I srsly cannot stress my agreement enough. Something should really be done about thi—
OH MY GOD, THANK YOU.
That is an interesting point, not sure it makes them scum but good to keep in mind.
I agree with the thought behind this post, Aflame placing the vote on S&N while saying they looked like newbie Town and they were suspecting ZMS was pretty weird and not exactly justified by their explanation.
But this is the starting vote for the Zinn wagon, huh?And then they continued to push lynching ZMS over the “okay” Noobs wagon. Makes it that much harder to see Aflame as scum in retrospect.
Tbh this post bothers me. Bok had just done a PBP of Restless, who yes, has been pretty guilty of fluffposting half the time, and Sunspear tries to turn it around like Bok’s note for each fluffpost is fluff itself. Looks like a flawed attempt at a redirection of attention/shade on Bok that doesn’t sit right with me. Heck, if either Ridge or Sunspear turn up Mafia at any point, I figure the two could be scumbuds and suggest we look more closely at the other one.
Y’all should join a game hosted by me sometime, I don’t require unvoting to change votes!
Oh yeah, and refusing to answer questions (unless it’s for denying the scum info they could easily use against us) isn’t very helpful for the Town, even if the other person did it first. Also, I may have missed what you’re referring to while skimming this big-ass thread but when did Bok do that?
I feel no need to quote the exact posts here, but T&H’s suspicion/voting of Lone_Wolf seems unjustified to me. Meanwhile, Mafia Nursing Home’s vote change to the Zinn wagon helped pivot our lynch in the favorable direction we all saw it go in, so I feel like MNH gets some Town points for that one. LatB’s voting behavior I’m iffy on, it seems they were testing the waters with other, less popular wagons and then settled on voting S&N over ZMS. Not sure if the pushes were genuine or attempts to save ZMS.
Or maybe I suspected you for the actual reasons I gave in the post that you quoted, which this joke of yours seems to continue the trend of dismissing entirely.
I know this was asked earlier, and I can’t speak for how Max feels about Sunspear right now, buuut honestly? Reading through the thread, I’m mot feeling any better about them.
I don’t understand this. I also noticed earlier T&H talking with Ridge about LW supposedly having too much info about S&N, but where exactly did this idea come from? Could one of those three players clarify this?
Especially in light of how the lynch turned out (granted, the lynch obviously happened after these posts), I’m personally in disagreement with these reads. Imo, dum dum has appeared very logical and provocative with their questions (or at least one of their heads has, I guess?)
I wouldn’t call this a reason to scumread them considering their level of contribution, although I am curious if anyone else from ZD can back up this claim about that particular head of dum dum’s meta, just so I can know whether or not spear is just pulling a scum read out of their ass here.
This is another post by DDI that I can seriously understand and relate to—wait what do you mean it’s not game-related content? Nevermind!!
Cute justification for prematurely considering unconfirmed people Town
A...wut? I don’t understand this enough to comment on it.
A sorta half-hearted defense...thing about ZMS. Weeeiiird.
Not reads, but acting like players are confirmed Town when they’re not. As you subsequently mentioned, yes reads can change (even my top Town reads now I could turn on later if I have a good reason!), but calling unconfirmed people a “Town core” seems to me the opposite of being open-minded towards the possibility that they’re scum. That’s how it comes across to me.
Wait, do you think that’s my reasoning? When did I mention an actual “slip?” Because I’m pretty sure that “scumslip” part came from a dodgy joke post made by Sunspear themself, which I have quoted somewhere higher up in this post.
Chillian held their position on wanting to lynch the Noobs, then posted this to try and get ZMS to defend themselves. Not instascum but it’s noteworthy considering the flip.
Hm.
Why did you say this about S&N, especially when you were scumreading them?
Oh yeah, this was a legitimate reason to not waste a Cop check on them, spear, but do tell me what yours was.
Just...excuse me, what? Why?? What is the Town motivation for intentionally lynching a Miller??
Oh for the love of...no, just no. Please tell me what I think happened to S&N didn’t happen...
The fact that a Mafioso can rarely pull off a successful Miller fakeclaim here already makes it a bad option for them. Lynching someone who is likely the Miller would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Not that S&N is alive to vouch for now, like when I first started writing my response.
Hmm, besides spear, I have my suspicions on Ridge, T&H, and maybe LatB to an extent. They’ve all done some things that seem contributive but others that strike me as suspicious. Spear definitely hasn’t wowed me so far, and the T&H vote looks like it could be promising.
vote: Tommy & Hal
It is almost as if not investigating a player who needs to die regardless is simply logic, and I honestly thought it needed to be spelled out because players like you are in this game.
This is the first truly notable post from Chillian and I soulread it town. Feels so open to me. Indeed, this openness is something I scry from nearly all of Chillian's posts. I imagine there is a decent bit of conversation between the heads, but their interactions with the thread read mostly like someone who is a bit too open with their life on social media. For that reason I do not see Chillian being a wolf here, but it surely depends on who is making the posts. I always historically struggle with reading DekuNut as he remains quite tonally neutral regardless of alignment. This, at best, is me squeezing my eyes shut and praying for the best.
They acknowledge that their reasoning is bolstered by "the power of hindsight"; as in, they are looking at the conversation with context that the participants assumably did not have. This is a poor method for solving and it means there is a good chance the conclusion is inherently flawed (that is, if they are indeed right, they are automatically right for the wrong reasons, which is not necessarily a bad thing imo- but I digress), and it also just seems wrong to me- in hindsight, I still think T&H look miles better than Aflame from this conversation. The fact that MNH is no longer reading the game the same way as me is jarring and makes me think I need to reconsider the slot.
This is actually interesting- the links take you back to a post by Mafia Nursing Home yet the words contained in the quote are not present. This is accurate- MNH never said this. I do not think scum T&H go to the lengths of deleting the contents of a quote and replacing it, though. More likely a site error as I know my partner and I have been having weirdness take place when we both are typing.
The reason this concerns me is because I was actually afraid that this was the exact reason LATB was town reading me. I have no statistics to back it up, but I have always believed that scum are more likely to instinctively town read players who scum read them as an attempt to placate them. As a result this was a huge ping for me and trended them greatly downwards.
However, this post regarding Aflame made an impression on my mind. It is what bolsters the read on Aflame being afraid to lynch townies. It comes together for a compelling case on Aflame when you consider this in conjunction with their attitude toward players sussing them (recall "why am I suspicious?" ad nauseam). For this reason I see a logical conclusion that LATB and Aflame are not partners, though I still strongly suspect one of the two is a wolf.
This was something that did not sit well with me. I understand that this read list is based only on interactions with a known wolf, but it is here as a summation of the entirety of LATB's activity during this time. The quotes they selected were extremely choosy and they missed out on several interactions. In addition, the selections were extremely confbiasy, which I attempted to point out:
Here I cleanly pointed out their confirmation bias, as it is showing hard in this specific example. The final response was a major deflection and I had no way to really respond to it. Note how they refused to admit that asking someone to explain why they are scum could actually be towny- because it breaks their worldview. It is pure confirmation bias and despite me pointing it out and them they did not acknowledge it in their further analyses. Essentially, we should not be trusting LATB's analysis of interactions with ZMS at best. At worst they are scum and trying to push a false narrative, but I suppose I need to allow players to make mistakes otherwise the lynch pool is extremely large, no?
Indeed, including this post. OMGUS! Of course! Despite thesunspear actually being one of the players to pressure ZMS in the beginning, we can see LATB's confirmation bias leaking through- otherwise they would never say "enough for distancing". To say so implies that you are reading it with the assumption that we are both scum to begin with (hence confirmation bias). It further manifests itself with phrases like "like everyone else was doing" despite not saying as such while checking interactions between these "everyone else"-es. Do you see? This player is not one who is reaching conclusions naturally. They have their world planned and are trying to build to it. Lynchable. I disagree with my other head, I really think LATB is a wolf.
gummy is doing as expected and actually contributing now. Good to have you back friend
work n school bb i am an adult™
i don't really understand what this means. would you mind rewording it?
agreed
relatable
it feels like you're content to lynch all of the S&N voters in a row and haven't given too much thought beyond that
This shitpost makes me genuinely angry. All the freaking time in this game do people comment on others being shit, or that one of the hydra's is shit. You're not the only one to do that, btw. I'm really fed up with posts I have seen from the beginning of the game that either say something like "Officer snake should just stop posting", or "Kokirion plays shit", and comparing what head pasted what to constantly call out that you think that head is shit. And we are not the only victim of that.
@Restless_Ridge @Hydreigon & Shelgon GX on one hand i'm really glad that y'all acknowledged my posts but on the other hand nothing was answered lmao. in the future i'd love an actual answer. if you don't know you don't know and that's cool but i've gained nothing except validation. everyone and their mother knows i love validation and attention but it doesn't really help me get a solid read lmfao
my partner might be, but i'm not. currently i'm asking questions to get a better read on players i'm having trouble reading instead of just assuming S&N vote = scum, ZMS vote = town. although, I've looked through the ZMS wagon and honestly i can't find a player to scumread.
H-hey, I'm here too!
The percentages...
Okay. Fair request. When I'll find more time I'll delve more into quotes from you and restless.
I think we are well-committed to H&S and Chillian. Regarding H&S, we mentioned what we saw as town- and scumtells. The scumtells didn't yet weigh up strongly enough to put them on my scumlist. That's my current read on them. Might change in the future. Regarding Chillian, I also gave my opinion on that. I could very well see that as a scum move, but would now first like to see them taking risks. I asked them for a reads list. I will make up my mind about them after they do that. Then we will discuss their alignment again.
Very well, about that miscommunication. I live in an Asian time-zone, Officer snake in a European one. sometimes I make posts, and then when I go to bed Snake continues but with a fresh mind, and vice-versa. At the start of the game I could see why this sometimes gave a feeling of: intro to story A (koki) --> core to story A (Koki) [now Koki goes to bed and is replaced by Snake) --> intro to story B --> core to story B [now Snake goes to bed and is replaced by Koki] --> conclusion to story A [now Snake joins again] --> conclusion to story B.
Yes, exactly. The "Why am I suspicious" is exactly how I wanted it to be read.
Onto the T&H battle.
