Absolutely not. I could understand 4kids doing it in the 90s, since back then anime dubbing was still a relatively small circle and not many people were aware of it and companies didn't know how to run things. What's TPCi's excuse for doing it today, in the year 2012? Nothing. There is no excuse for replacing an anime's original music--it's the wrong way of doing things and completely ruins the feeling that the original music may have given certain scenes of the show. You're doing something wrong as a dubbing company when people feel compelled to watch the show that you're responsible for in a language that they can't understand just so they can get the full experience.
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Music Background music of the show
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Thingamajig
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PUSA had no excuse in 2006 to replace the dub music, and really have no right to do so today. Does anyone else besides 4Kids still replace music? Whatever arguments Loeffler et al. had about the original music being too expensive went out the door when they kept 90% of the music throughout season 14 - they're just doing it now because they can and want to.
Why, though? Is there some other Pokemon board out there that all the 8-10 year-olds visit that has a "How Much of that awful Japanese Music was replaced" thread that they follow intently to gain an idea of the fanbase's support of the way the music is handled, and saw how angry and frustrated they were during season 14? The opinions of this board must take precedence over the only other fans of the show who actually give a flying fuck about what the background music sounds like.
Why, though? Is there some other Pokemon board out there that all the 8-10 year-olds visit that has a "How Much of that awful Japanese Music was replaced" thread that they follow intently to gain an idea of the fanbase's support of the way the music is handled, and saw how angry and frustrated they were during season 14? The opinions of this board must take precedence over the only other fans of the show who actually give a flying fuck about what the background music sounds like.
Well apparently the latest dub episode of Best Wishes kept only 3 pieces of original music. That's worse than Advanced Generation levels of kept original music. TPCi need to seriously get their heads out of their you-know-wheres and put some actual effort into the dub. Many people use the 'this is 2012, not the 1990's' argument when talking about the dub, but anyone paying attention will know that those episodes from the 1990's through to late September 2001 had an average of 70% of the original music being kept, with many episodes in the high 90% levels, so if that's the 1990's and this is 2012, why are we at such outrageously low levels of music kept? Apart from the first episode which only kept 2 pieces of original music, it wasn't until episode 167 that we saw a number as low as only 3 pieces of music being kept. More than 95% of those episodes all kept a number of pieces of music that was in the double digits too. And I may as well throw in the 'and this is 4Kids we're talking about' argument as well.
I believe that if TPCi still want to replace music with their own terrible music then they should do so only for TV or their online streams on pokemon.com or whatever, but at least put properly dubbed episodes on to the DVDs, so the people who want to enjoy the beautiful original soundtrack, then they can.
I believe that if TPCi still want to replace music with their own terrible music then they should do so only for TV or their online streams on pokemon.com or whatever, but at least put properly dubbed episodes on to the DVDs, so the people who want to enjoy the beautiful original soundtrack, then they can.
Ranger Jack Walker
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The music? No.
The Openings? GOD YES REPLACE THEM. The Japanese ones are boring.
Why replace vocals? Because translations never work out for songs. Either you lose the rhyming or you lose the meaning. Its always a compromise.
The Openings? GOD YES REPLACE THEM. The Japanese ones are boring.
Why replace vocals? Because translations never work out for songs. Either you lose the rhyming or you lose the meaning. Its always a compromise.
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From what I've seen in popular anime dubs when it comes to intros is:
1. They use the Japanese song, with or without subtitles.
2. They use the Japanese song but translate it into English.
3. They make up something new.
I enjoy the Kanto through Hoenn songs but, minus "We Will Carry On", the newer songs are lacking. "Battle Cry" was an okay song but that's about it - it's catchy but I don't know if I'd call it on par with previous intros.
I can't put my finger on why but none of the recent songs are very good.
1. They use the Japanese song, with or without subtitles.
2. They use the Japanese song but translate it into English.
3. They make up something new.
I enjoy the Kanto through Hoenn songs but, minus "We Will Carry On", the newer songs are lacking. "Battle Cry" was an okay song but that's about it - it's catchy but I don't know if I'd call it on par with previous intros.
I can't put my finger on why but none of the recent songs are very good.
You're right, I sure am glad that they replaced those godawful Japanese openings with the highly superior and masterful English openings from our very own TPCi.
...Though I do admit that 4kids made some pretty rockin' openings, TPCi has never made a single one that I like. But in the end, the Japanese OPs will always prevail.
Kazamatsuri
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In answer to the title question, ABSOLUTELY NOT for three fundamental reasons. 1) It's a matter of principle, 2) the commercial value to the Japanese compositions are far greater than their English counterparts and 3) the quality of the original music is so much better. And I'm going to elaborate on each of these points:
1. MATTER OF PRINCIPLE
For one thing, Anime Dubs that replace all or even any of the original Japanese music are in the extreme minority, especially these days. Conversely, foreign adaptations of English animated adaptations scarcely (if at all) replace any of the BGM in their versions.
Furthermore, this same concept that applies in any other aspect of the Pokemon Anime, or by extension, the English adaptation of any other Japanese Anime. Beyond that even, the same concept would apply to a movie adaptation of a book, a movie adaptation of a television show, a remake of a movie or a television adaptation of a comic book series. The concept in question is that you don't change the fundamentals of the product at its core. If it's necessary to change around a few aspects to suit the extended medium in question, then go ahead and do so, but don't alter the fundamentals that make the franchise what it is to begin with.
I can assure you that there is absolutely NO NECESSITY WHATSOEVER in altering (or adding to) any of the instrumental music from the original Japanese version of the Pokemon Anime.
On vocal songs, I can give a small amount of credence to replacing those. Even then, outside the openings and endings, the lyrics could just as easily be translated. And on top of that, the credit sequence would need to be replaced, if at all, only during the network airings where time is limited. Furthermore, I would to note that I have periodically compared the duration of Pokemon with other shows on its same line-up. All other shows clock in at least a minute longer that the Pokemon Dub. One minute longer would be sufficient to at least include the Japanese Opening in its entirety.
2. COMMERCIAL VALUE
It goes without saying that Japanese composition carry far greater commercial value than their English counterparts these days. The Japanese BGM (and in some case the vocal songs) are easily recognized by fans across the globe due to the fact that much of it is remixed versions of Video game tracks, as well as music composed for the movies (which thankfully the Dub has kept ever since #4). Add to it the fact that the Japanese music from both the regular series and the movies constantly get put out on CDs, and you know it is very marketable.
Conversely, there has only been one CD released for the English compositions within the past decade (and that was exclusively vocal songs, most of which were previously composed) and none released in the last five years. And it's no wonder. The English compositions overall, aside from being very bland, generic, and in some cases flat out ugly, are just very forgettable. The only English music to even have a remote level of marketability are the vocal songs. And for those, I'd say the patent on there economic life is about one year max before everyone outside the hardcore fanbase completely forgets about them.
Back during fad stage however (1998-2001), I''ll concede that much of the English composed music (whatever anyone thought of its quality, which I'll get into in just a moment) had a good deal of commercial value. You had CD's being released left and right of, such as 2.B.A. Master and the instrumental music that was replaced for the first three movies. You even remixes of very early Dub exclusive BGM from the series used in the US released of the Pokemon version of Panel De Pon/Tetris Attack, otherwise known as Pokemon Puzzle League for the N64 Platform.
3. SUPERIOR QUALITY
This is the only category that is subjective in nature. But I think given the overall variety and the sheer amount of work put into the Japanese compositions, coupled with a balanced scoring of said compositions in the actual series, it is a pretty daunting task to argue that the English music is even remotely up to par. I'l just give one of the thousands of examples that already exist.
A while back, I brought up the two different Dubbed versions of Playing the Performance Encore. Thankfully, the version that made its initial debut on CartoonNetwork maintain all the music as is (sans the title screen theme) unchanged. Well, it was a completely different story for the version that streamed on Pokemon.com. In that version, the well known instrumental theme to Hikari/Dawn was actually replaced during the climax. So instead of an upbeat, uplifting and cheerful tune that went along perfectly well with Dawn's come from behind victory, we get (as indicated above) this bland, generic, and plain ugly track with the Dub composers' traditional synthesizer at work, which completely alters the feel of that moment, thus rendering said victory effectively meaningless.
1. MATTER OF PRINCIPLE
For one thing, Anime Dubs that replace all or even any of the original Japanese music are in the extreme minority, especially these days. Conversely, foreign adaptations of English animated adaptations scarcely (if at all) replace any of the BGM in their versions.
Furthermore, this same concept that applies in any other aspect of the Pokemon Anime, or by extension, the English adaptation of any other Japanese Anime. Beyond that even, the same concept would apply to a movie adaptation of a book, a movie adaptation of a television show, a remake of a movie or a television adaptation of a comic book series. The concept in question is that you don't change the fundamentals of the product at its core. If it's necessary to change around a few aspects to suit the extended medium in question, then go ahead and do so, but don't alter the fundamentals that make the franchise what it is to begin with.
I can assure you that there is absolutely NO NECESSITY WHATSOEVER in altering (or adding to) any of the instrumental music from the original Japanese version of the Pokemon Anime.
On vocal songs, I can give a small amount of credence to replacing those. Even then, outside the openings and endings, the lyrics could just as easily be translated. And on top of that, the credit sequence would need to be replaced, if at all, only during the network airings where time is limited. Furthermore, I would to note that I have periodically compared the duration of Pokemon with other shows on its same line-up. All other shows clock in at least a minute longer that the Pokemon Dub. One minute longer would be sufficient to at least include the Japanese Opening in its entirety.
2. COMMERCIAL VALUE
It goes without saying that Japanese composition carry far greater commercial value than their English counterparts these days. The Japanese BGM (and in some case the vocal songs) are easily recognized by fans across the globe due to the fact that much of it is remixed versions of Video game tracks, as well as music composed for the movies (which thankfully the Dub has kept ever since #4). Add to it the fact that the Japanese music from both the regular series and the movies constantly get put out on CDs, and you know it is very marketable.
Conversely, there has only been one CD released for the English compositions within the past decade (and that was exclusively vocal songs, most of which were previously composed) and none released in the last five years. And it's no wonder. The English compositions overall, aside from being very bland, generic, and in some cases flat out ugly, are just very forgettable. The only English music to even have a remote level of marketability are the vocal songs. And for those, I'd say the patent on there economic life is about one year max before everyone outside the hardcore fanbase completely forgets about them.
Back during fad stage however (1998-2001), I''ll concede that much of the English composed music (whatever anyone thought of its quality, which I'll get into in just a moment) had a good deal of commercial value. You had CD's being released left and right of, such as 2.B.A. Master and the instrumental music that was replaced for the first three movies. You even remixes of very early Dub exclusive BGM from the series used in the US released of the Pokemon version of Panel De Pon/Tetris Attack, otherwise known as Pokemon Puzzle League for the N64 Platform.
3. SUPERIOR QUALITY
This is the only category that is subjective in nature. But I think given the overall variety and the sheer amount of work put into the Japanese compositions, coupled with a balanced scoring of said compositions in the actual series, it is a pretty daunting task to argue that the English music is even remotely up to par. I'l just give one of the thousands of examples that already exist.
A while back, I brought up the two different Dubbed versions of Playing the Performance Encore. Thankfully, the version that made its initial debut on CartoonNetwork maintain all the music as is (sans the title screen theme) unchanged. Well, it was a completely different story for the version that streamed on Pokemon.com. In that version, the well known instrumental theme to Hikari/Dawn was actually replaced during the climax. So instead of an upbeat, uplifting and cheerful tune that went along perfectly well with Dawn's come from behind victory, we get (as indicated above) this bland, generic, and plain ugly track with the Dub composers' traditional synthesizer at work, which completely alters the feel of that moment, thus rendering said victory effectively meaningless.
Ranger Jack Walker
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I like Rival Destinies. : |
People say that the english openings are 'cheesy' but no one ever defines what 'cheesy' is. The Japanese Lyrics are cheesy to me just like the english ones are cheesy for you guys.
BladeLight52
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I remember saying this on the old music thread:
And another thing that I came across (note that I did not say the quote below):
Why am I not complaining about that? Because their latest DVD's restore the original BGM in it's entirety, while Pokemon DVD's, on the other hand, still have a mix of Japanese BGM and American BGM.
And another thing that I came across (note that I did not say the quote below):
Why am I not complaining about that? Because their latest DVD's restore the original BGM in it's entirety, while Pokemon DVD's, on the other hand, still have a mix of Japanese BGM and American BGM.
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charizardmaster125
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My answer to this question is, absolutely not, like many others on this thread have said. To back me up on this, I completely agree with everything that Kazamatsuri said in his post on the 1st May. It is completely unnecessary and takes away the value of the show, and as someone else has said in this thread, I also think that it is a complete insult to the talents of Mr Shinji Miyazaki, makes all his work a complete waste of effort.
Like others, I did find 4Kid’s Dub music quite good, vocal / opening songs especially, barring, the Chronicles theme, a pointless and disappointing remix of the Gold & Silver Poké Rap, and you know 4Kids could have done better. At least the Italians created their own song that was unique and overall, catchy and also “Misty’s Song” from 2BA Master as it just takes cheesiness to the max, sorry shippers :-D.
TPCi is kind of a mix bag vocal song wise, I could list the songs that I like but that’s really meant for another thread. TPCi should give us the option of Sub / Dub to their DVD’s or how about the option to watch the Dub with the Japanese soundtrack like Funimation does with their Dragon Ball DVDs and it is a massive shame that they are not capitalizing on this type of market for the show where the majority of anime’s are given proper treatment which includes a near 100% translation, eye catches, opening and closing credits are retained including the soundtrack.
To me the reason that the Japanese stuff is “too expensive” and “licensing issues etc” is pathetic since TPCi is part of a company that already draws in an extortionate fee of money from selling games, manga and other merchandising so you think that even if they did have to pay for the Japanese music, they would allocate a specific sum of money for that purpose within the dubs budget.
I would really think that Pokémon would work better on a direct to DVD / Blu Ray Release, anime’s such as Fairy Tail sell pretty well on the domestic format and that’s without even being aired on TV and that’s saying quite a lot.
Like others, I did find 4Kid’s Dub music quite good, vocal / opening songs especially, barring, the Chronicles theme, a pointless and disappointing remix of the Gold & Silver Poké Rap, and you know 4Kids could have done better. At least the Italians created their own song that was unique and overall, catchy and also “Misty’s Song” from 2BA Master as it just takes cheesiness to the max, sorry shippers :-D.
TPCi is kind of a mix bag vocal song wise, I could list the songs that I like but that’s really meant for another thread. TPCi should give us the option of Sub / Dub to their DVD’s or how about the option to watch the Dub with the Japanese soundtrack like Funimation does with their Dragon Ball DVDs and it is a massive shame that they are not capitalizing on this type of market for the show where the majority of anime’s are given proper treatment which includes a near 100% translation, eye catches, opening and closing credits are retained including the soundtrack.
To me the reason that the Japanese stuff is “too expensive” and “licensing issues etc” is pathetic since TPCi is part of a company that already draws in an extortionate fee of money from selling games, manga and other merchandising so you think that even if they did have to pay for the Japanese music, they would allocate a specific sum of money for that purpose within the dubs budget.
I would really think that Pokémon would work better on a direct to DVD / Blu Ray Release, anime’s such as Fairy Tail sell pretty well on the domestic format and that’s without even being aired on TV and that’s saying quite a lot.
BladeLight52
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Well, today I've watched "Stopping the Rage of legends part 2" and counted 6 pieces out of 13 used in the original. It still puzzles me what the heck is going on in TPCi's minds and how they run their business. If it's some kind of contractual agreement, how long is it going to last? A lifetime until the series is over (which I doubt it'll end anytime soon)? If they can use the original music for the movies, why not the TV series? Another thing, they don't know how to come up with the appropriate music either. It's like this: the original scene is serious, but the dub puts goofy music, but the other way around when the original scene is funny, they put serious music. The quality of the dub music is not subjective because I have yet to like a piece of instrumental dub music that is on par with the original. I also have yet to come across one person who actually likes TPCi's music. Plus, if TPCi is aware of the majority preference to the original music, why are they ignoring us? It's giving me a migraine.
My point is: the original music, whether it's good, bad, big, small, repeats itself, has variety and all that crap, IT SHOULD NOT BE REPLACED...EVER. TPCi, didn't make the music, the music is already placed, and should not be tampered with. I agree with charizardmaster about Mr. Miyazaki's 14 years of hard work go to waste for some uninspired, untalented, sorry excuse for dub music.
*sigh* I REALLY wanted to get that out.
It's still the original music.
Again, it's not their moral right.
Do I have to say it the third time?
My point is: the original music, whether it's good, bad, big, small, repeats itself, has variety and all that crap, IT SHOULD NOT BE REPLACED...EVER. TPCi, didn't make the music, the music is already placed, and should not be tampered with. I agree with charizardmaster about Mr. Miyazaki's 14 years of hard work go to waste for some uninspired, untalented, sorry excuse for dub music.
*sigh* I REALLY wanted to get that out.
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I agree with you guys when you say that it's disrespectful to Mr. Miyazaki. The man works so hard to deliver quality music in order amplify feelings in scenes, only for TPCi to sling shit in his face with their primitive ways of dubbing. I don't even understand just why they do it; in one episode of Diamond and Pearl they kept all of the original music, but when they put the same episode up on Pokemon.com, none of it is there. Also, in Emogla and the New Volt Switch, they kept the instrumental for Best Wishes, but in episodes that aired before and after that one, they used an instrumental for Black and White instead. It's inconsistent and downright confusing.
BladeLight52
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What also bothers me is that there is no way that we can legally watch the original version on DVD. It doesn't help that the pokemon DVD's here are edited only and that the original bgm isn't restored. From what I've come across in these forums, the reason why there won' be any uncut pokemon DVD's is because Nintendo doesn't want to ruin the franchise's reputation. They are understandably protective of the franchise. I can't explain further than this, but feel free to fill me in on Nintendo's reasoning.
I also think that producing dub music costs just as much as buying the original music. TPCi might be thinking, "If we produce instrumental music and air it on daytime television, we will get even MORE money from the publishing. Let's do that. We are going for a younger demographic. They won't care. I'm sure a few fans will get pissed, but we don't care either. We're rich! HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!" That whole "younger demographic" excuse is a poor way to defend themselves on how they run their business.
When the first 5 episodes of B&W were airing at the time, I was this close, THIS CLOSE, to believing that TPCi has changed for the better. Now I can imagine them laughing at us for believing that they care about the quality by keeping all of the original BGM. But nope, my dreams of a proper pokemon dub have vanished into an endless void.
This rant is over for now, but I'll be back to think of some more reasons without repeating myself.
I also think that producing dub music costs just as much as buying the original music. TPCi might be thinking, "If we produce instrumental music and air it on daytime television, we will get even MORE money from the publishing. Let's do that. We are going for a younger demographic. They won't care. I'm sure a few fans will get pissed, but we don't care either. We're rich! HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!" That whole "younger demographic" excuse is a poor way to defend themselves on how they run their business.
When the first 5 episodes of B&W were airing at the time, I was this close, THIS CLOSE, to believing that TPCi has changed for the better. Now I can imagine them laughing at us for believing that they care about the quality by keeping all of the original BGM. But nope, my dreams of a proper pokemon dub have vanished into an endless void.
This rant is over for now, but I'll be back to think of some more reasons without repeating myself.
matt0044
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More like it's dubbed uncut and unedited for DVD and shown on TV with no alterations. Plus, I don't like the idea of Pokemon being direct to DVD. That phrase does not bode well with me. Besides, Dragon Ball Z Kai is shown with music intact from the Japanese version on Nicktoons and the series is super popular like Pokemon.
Lethal Carnivine
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I don't think they're trying to actively disrespect the Japanese composers, I just think they're changing the music just because.
I notice that for last season, the gap between original and dub was fairly short. Maybe they kept a good portion of the music for that because they didn't really have time to change it.
In all honesty, I can deal with music being off if script is good (particularly for TR). I can't deal with it if both are just off.
I notice that for last season, the gap between original and dub was fairly short. Maybe they kept a good portion of the music for that because they didn't really have time to change it.
In all honesty, I can deal with music being off if script is good (particularly for TR). I can't deal with it if both are just off.
matt0044
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Same to a certain extent but TPCi's scripts are pretty off to me. Hell, it might be why the VAs sound so stilted with such hokey dialogue.
Pokemaster Justin
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Replace only songs with Japanese lyrics.
BladeLight52
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That's still being disrespectful to the original composers. To rub salt in the wound, John Loeffler has insulted Mr. Miyazaki's work as "basic music" while calling his own work "lush, big with lots of instruments". He can talk about his own music as much as he likes, but he had no moral right to talk crap about other musical works by Mr. Miyazaki.
Ranger Jack Walker
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Maybe he is wrong to insult other people's work if he really did that. But do ordinary people have any moral right to insult Loeffler's work even if you don't think highly of it?
Yash
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I think it's interesting how in the opening credits, the only musician they credit is Shinji Miyazaki.
And you know, it's only his music that's actually memorable. It'd be one thing if the dub music was any good, but with a handful of exceptions it's boring bland crap. I'll give them credit in that the dub music in B/W seems to be all new, and it's slightly better, but it's still nothing great.
I can't believe they went through an entire season of Black and White keeping ~90% of the music in each episode and then a new season starts and they're back to their old tricks.
Especially considering how relevant the Japanese music is to the series. Many of the best pieces from the anime are remixes of the game music. The dub music has no connotation.
To me, John Loeffler's comments about his music being superior come across to me as a warmup act trying to upstage the main band at a concert. Get over yourself dude, I seriously doubt anyone would agree with that.
And you know, it's only his music that's actually memorable. It'd be one thing if the dub music was any good, but with a handful of exceptions it's boring bland crap. I'll give them credit in that the dub music in B/W seems to be all new, and it's slightly better, but it's still nothing great.
I can't believe they went through an entire season of Black and White keeping ~90% of the music in each episode and then a new season starts and they're back to their old tricks.
Especially considering how relevant the Japanese music is to the series. Many of the best pieces from the anime are remixes of the game music. The dub music has no connotation.
To me, John Loeffler's comments about his music being superior come across to me as a warmup act trying to upstage the main band at a concert. Get over yourself dude, I seriously doubt anyone would agree with that.
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