Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to restore

[Almonds]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

It's about time they did something about the cheats. I hope the GTS problems get solved as well. I don't want to see people offering level 1 shiny Groudons or asking for a level 9 and under Kyurem in exchange for a Sunkern -.-

 

[DoctorWhy]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

There are two different Pokemon players who want the same Pokemon with the same stats, movesets, ability, EV's IV's, nature, and so on. One trainer obtains this specific Pokemon through massive luck and training, while the other player obtains this natural set through a spoofed GTS. Now, both players have the exact same Pokemon, with the exact same stats... etc., but it took one player longer to obtain that Pokemon. Now, these players go into battle with their Pokemon. The first trainer sends out his Pokemon that he trained, while the other trainer sends out his Pokemon that he used a spoofed GTS for. Both Pokemon have the exact same stats, etc.; theoretically, they are genetic duplicates, meaning that every aspect about them is exactly the same gameplay wise.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When the resulting pokemon are identical, as in the example you provided, yes the battle itself is equal ground. The point I was making against the methods which allow person B to get that same Pokemon (but in a much shorter length of time, as with RNG for example) is simply the time. While the battle itself is not unfair, I'll give you that, Person A had to spend hours upon hours of their life trying to get extremely lucky while Person B got what they wanted in a few minutes. To me, while the battle later on is fair as you said because their pokemon are just as good as the other, the method of receiving is a matter that many people don't quite agree on. I feel that the much shorter amount of time in Person B's case is simply a big "f*** you" to the person who doesn't know how to rng (or whatever reason they don't use it) who spent many hours of their life actually working for that awesome pokemon.

The question at hand is present: "Is legitimacy in obtaining a Pokemon connected to competitive play?" this is where we diverge.

To be honest though, it sounds more as if the argument pro towards legitimacy is an Appeal to Pity fallacy rather than an argument presenting how spoofed GTS trainers give legitimate trainers any actual disadvantage in the competitive scene. According to what you've said, as unbiased as I can put it, this is the logical scale for those who are pro towards legitimacy (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Both Pokemon entering the battle are of equal level
2. It's too bad that one trainer had to spend so much more time just to get the same Pokemon
3. Therefore, generating Pokemon is unfair competitive wise

An Appeal to Pity fallacy is a logical misstep when one of the predicates, intended to create some form of pity, is substituted as evidence for an argument. The fact that one trainer had to spend more time than the other tells us nothing on why generating Pokemon is unfair competitive wise. The problem with spoofed GTS players, etc., recognizing any connectivity pro legitimacy arguments when it comes to competitive play is this problem; it ends up becoming a fallacy when a pro legitimacy player tries to create an argument on how generating Pokemon is unfair.

However, I understand that the pro legitimacy argument isn't as much of an argument on competitive play as it is trying to maintain and impose a form of art and tradition that had initially been set by Nintendo on other players. That tradition (and quite possibly ritual) is the time spent raising the Pokemon and everything that comes along with such. As you've stated, you don't actually believe that the generated Pokemon in the battle I gave an example of (in other words, competitive grounds) is unfair, so we both know that you don't feel spoofed GTS players are doing anything unfair competitive wise. However, I understand that it's aesthetically displeasing to you that not everybody chooses to partake in the art and tradition of raising a Pokemon manually.

The question I have for is this: Is it honestly fair to limit the potential of the competitive scene, because some players don't partake in your tradition, ritual, and somewhat religion of raising Pokemon?

Good points. I will agree that it is primarily a sort of tradition/way it's supposed to be argument as well as pity, but this does not completely invalidate the argument. It seems that this is where we happen to have a slight disagreement. I will say again that yes, if the pokemon are exactly the same between the two different methods then the battle itself is fair. But I would like to point out how very unlikely that is. In almost all cases of an rng abuser vs. a player using traditional methods, the rng user will almost always have a better pokemon. That's just how it works. In my experience, while not as advanced and knowledged as most, competitive players who use "fair" traditional methods don't end up with perfect/near perfect pokemon. They are often forced to settle for a pokemon that is just a bit above average due to the simple agony of time and bad luck. So while your previous example, while being a good one, is very rare to actually happen.

There are other consequences of rng abusers vs. traditional "fair" method users. The high percentage of rng users in the competitive field is not completely due to its popularity. Another, maybe even forgotten reason, is that traditional players have been all but forced out. An additional comment to your final point about the competitive field being limited: it is limited either way. If rng abusers are forced out, it becomes limited. If traditional players are alienated, it becomes alienated. This is a two-way street either way. Due to high time amount, need of rock solid patience and attitude, etc. many traditional method users are alienated from the competitive field, which in my opinion is something that very few people would actually say that they support. The alienation of these people is not a positive thing, and while a primarily pity based argument when viewed by others, it is still a legitimate cause for change.

I will say this however: I'm not an all out believer that rng abuse should be obliterated, however, I believe that if it is something that is to continued to be used, it should be made simpler, easier, and more accessible or even an in-game mechanic post-game that allows you to abuse the rng without actually abusing it (by allowing players to influence these things freely once you get to the end of the game). However, rather than being part of the main argument, this is simply an alternative solution that would be great to be implemented in the future. I feel that with the new in-game facility (I believe it was somewhat confirmed, but correct me if I'm wrong) that lets you check your pokemon's EVs and IVs, a good step forward has been made.

Final comment for now, I do believe that spoofed GTS players have an advantage. This is purely because, however, the type of case you mentioned is very rare and I'd guess that almost every battle is not on even ground. Just a quick reminder/disclaimer, I have zero hostility. Just a healthy debate. Just thought I'd say that since many people online get heated quickly.

 

[mysteryracer]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Good points. I will agree that it is primarily a sort of tradition/way it's supposed to be argument as well as pity, but this does not completely invalidate the argument. It seems that this is where we happen to have a slight disagreement. I will say again that yes, if the pokemon are exactly the same between the two different methods then the battle itself is fair. But I would like to point out how very unlikely that is. In almost all cases of an rng abuser vs. a player using traditional methods, the rng user will almost always have a better pokemon. That's just how it works. In my experience, while not as advanced and knowledged as most, competitive players who use "fair" traditional methods don't end up with perfect/near perfect pokemon. They are often forced to settle for a pokemon that is just a bit above average due to the simple agony of time and bad luck. So while your previous example, while being a good one, is very rare to actually happen.

There are other consequences of rng abusers vs. traditional "fair" method users. The high percentage of rng users in the competitive field is not completely due to its popularity. Another, maybe even forgotten reason, is that traditional players have been all but forced out. An additional comment to your final point about the competitive field being limited: it is limited either way. If rng abusers are forced out, it becomes limited. If traditional players are alienated, it becomes alienated. This is a two-way street either way. Due to high time amount, need of rock solid patience and attitude, etc. many traditional method users are alienated from the competitive field, which in my opinion is something that very few people would actually say that they support. The alienation of these people is not a positive thing, and while a primarily pity based argument when viewed by others, it is still a legitimate cause for change.

I will say this however: I'm not an all out believer that rng abuse should be obliterated, however, I believe that if it is something that is to continued to be used, it should be made simpler, easier, and more accessible or even an in-game mechanic post-game that allows you to abuse the rng without actually abusing it (by allowing players to influence these things freely once you get to the end of the game). However, rather than being part of the main argument, this is simply an alternative solution that would be great to be implemented in the future. I feel that with the new in-game facility (I believe it was somewhat confirmed, but correct me if I'm wrong) that lets you check your pokemon's EVs and IVs, a good step forward has been made.

Final comment for now, I do believe that spoofed GTS players have an advantage. This is purely because, however, the type of case you mentioned is very rare and I'd guess that almost every battle is not on even ground. Just a quick reminder/disclaimer, I have zero hostility. Just a health debate. Just thought I'd say that since many people online get heated quickly.

Ohh I didn't mean to come off as hostile either. Just a health debate, as you said x)

You have some good points here. I agree that realistically, as opposed to theoretically, it's most likely that a manually trained Pokemon is not going to have an all 31 IV spread, as opposed to a GTS spoofed Pokemon. So yes, on a realistic scale, the GTS spoofed Pokemon will have a bit more IV's than the manually trained one. I guess on a technical level, this isn't perfectly fair, but I think you're exaggerating the advantage that a GTS spoofed Pokemon gets for these few stat points. A team of GTS spoofed Pokemon are not near close to being insurmountable, even when being faced off against manually trained Pokemon. Also, note that competitive players who manually train their Pokemon do not walk into VGC until their team has the correct EV's and stats, so realistically, their team would already be buffed up -aside from IV's- regardless.

A question I have is, have you participated in VGC at all or tried the PWT VGC finalists data? I've had my GTS spoofed team trampled on many times by manually trained teams, who most likely didn't have maxed out IV's on their Pokemon for the very point you made; agony of time. The IV advantage I had on my Pokemon didn't make my team insurmountable or unbeatable by the manually trained teams. So in a way, manual trainers aren't exactly alienated from competitive play. Competitive Pokemon is such an intricate game, more intricate than a team winning because their Pokemon are "better". The synergy in a team is what allows it to win. The manual trainer who faced me had good synergy on his team, and was able to counter the threats on my team and overcome mine. I would suggest building a GTS spoofed team only just to see how it fares against the PWT junior and senior VGC finalist data. Even with a team with perfect stats, that tournament data is hard to win against (and the teams on that data don't even have perfect IV spreads). You'll understand how little advantage GTS spoofed teams get in competitive play when you do.

I think the problem that's tearing the fanbase into two pieces at this point is IV's. If it weren't for IV's, then a manually trained Pokemon could be just as powerful as a GTS spoofed Pokemon, realistically. They've been unnecessary barriers in competitive play, and almost everyone who's in the competitive scene would agree towards their removal. However, Nintendo is too adamant on the traditions of Pokemon to make any necessary changes to the series, so they're probably not gonna get rid if IV's 6th Gen. I think they should make EV and IV checkers 6th gen too, as opposed to the crappy one in place that doesn't tell you the spread, but only tells you if you've maxed out the EV's or not. Even if not, there's still Pokecheck anyway.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Good points. I will agree that it is primarily a sort of tradition/way it's supposed to be argument as well as pity, but this does not completely invalidate the argument. It seems that this is where we happen to have a slight disagreement. I will say again that yes, if the pokemon are exactly the same between the two different methods then the battle itself is fair. But I would like to point out how very unlikely that is. In almost all cases of an rng abuser vs. a player using traditional methods, the rng user will almost always have a better pokemon. That's just how it works. In my experience, while not as advanced and knowledged as most, competitive players who use "fair" traditional methods don't end up with perfect/near perfect pokemon. They are often forced to settle for a pokemon that is just a bit above average due to the simple agony of time and bad luck. So while your previous example, while being a good one, is very rare to actually happen.

There are other consequences of rng abusers vs. traditional "fair" method users. The high percentage of rng users in the competitive field is not completely due to its popularity. Another, maybe even forgotten reason, is that traditional players have been all but forced out. An additional comment to your final point about the competitive field being limited: it is limited either way. If rng abusers are forced out, it becomes limited. If traditional players are alienated, it becomes alienated. This is a two-way street either way. Due to high time amount, need of rock solid patience and attitude, etc. many traditional method users are alienated from the competitive field, which in my opinion is something that very few people would actually say that they support. The alienation of these people is not a positive thing, and while a primarily pity based argument when viewed by others, it is still a legitimate cause for change.

I will say this however: I'm not an all out believer that rng abuse should be obliterated, however, I believe that if it is something that is to continued to be used, it should be made simpler, easier, and more accessible or even an in-game mechanic post-game that allows you to abuse the rng without actually abusing it (by allowing players to influence these things freely once you get to the end of the game). However, rather than being part of the main argument, this is simply an alternative solution that would be great to be implemented in the future. I feel that with the new in-game facility (I believe it was somewhat confirmed, but correct me if I'm wrong) that lets you check your pokemon's EVs and IVs, a good step forward has been made.

Final comment for now, I do believe that spoofed GTS players have an advantage. This is purely because, however, the type of case you mentioned is very rare and I'd guess that almost every battle is not on even ground. Just a quick reminder/disclaimer, I have zero hostility. Just a health debate. Just thought I'd say that since many people online get heated quickly.

Ohh I didn't mean to come off as hostile either. Just a health debate, as you said x)

You have some good points here. I agree that realistically, as opposed to theoretically, it's most likely that a manually trained Pokemon is not going to have an all 31 IV spread, as opposed to a GTS spoofed Pokemon. So yes, on a realistic scale, the GTS spoofed Pokemon will have a bit more IV's than the manually trained one. I guess on a technical level, this isn't perfectly fair, but I think you're exaggerating the advantage that a GTS spoofed Pokemon gets for these few stat points. A team of GTS spoofed Pokemon are not near close to being insurmountable, even when being faced off against manually trained Pokemon. Also, note that competitive players who manually train their Pokemon do not walk into VGC until their team has the correct EV's and stats, so realistically, their team would already be buffed up -aside from IV's- regardless.

A question I have is, have you participated in VGC at all or tried the PWT VGC finalists data? I've had my GTS spoofed team trampled on many times by manually trained teams, who most likely didn't have maxed out IV's on their Pokemon for the very point you made; agony of time. The IV advantage I had on my Pokemon didn't make my team insurmountable or unbeatable by the manually trained teams. So in a way, manual trainers aren't exactly alienated from competitive play. Competitive Pokemon is such an intricate game, more intricate than a team winning because their Pokemon are "better". The synergy in a team is what allows it to win. The manual trainer who faced me had good synergy on his team, and was able to counter the threats on my team and overcome mine. I would suggest building a GTS spoofed team only just to see how it fares against the PWT junior and senior VGC finalist data. Even with a team with perfect stats, that tournament data is hard to win against (and the teams on that data don't even have perfect IV spreads). You'll understand how little advantage GTS spoofed teams get in competitive play when you do.

I think the problem that's tearing the fanbase into two pieces at this point is IV's. If it weren't for IV's, then a manually trained Pokemon could be just as powerful as a GTS spoofed Pokemon, realistically. They've been unnecessary barriers in competitive play, and almost everyone who's in the competitive scene would agree towards their removal. However, Nintendo is too adamant on the traditions of Pokemon to make any necessary changes to the series, so they're probably not gonna get rid if IV's 6th Gen. I think they should make EV and IV checkers 6th gen too, as opposed to the crappy one in place that doesn't tell you the spread, but only tells you if you've maxed out the EV's or not. Even if not, there's still Pokecheck anyway.

No no, I wasn't implying that haha. You haven't been at all. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't XD

And I agree, neither way is fool proof for winning. Either side can technically win. Personally, I have participated in some Wi-Fi tournament battles, but I almost always lose. And I don't really feel like learning how to use rng or make gts spoof teams XD

On your last point, that's all that needs to be said. IVs are the only reason that this debate even exists. Otherwise everyone would be almost identically in the same situation either way. I too wish they would get rid of IVs very much. They are the only aspect that makes any battle unfair to an extent. That's it. EVs and natures are pretty easy to deal with. IVs are the one and only true problem.

Post question: Are online GTS teams easy to make and are they safe to send to your game? I've heard before that sometimes pokemon made online and sent through GTS can sometimes mess up your game file (for example, GCPM11 distributions). That's one reason I've always avoided those. I don't want to risk damaging my game really. I don't care a whole lot about competitive battling since I never have the time. Too busy with school about 3/4 of the year.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

IIRC, two points IVs are equivalent to 1 point base stats. So, 31 IV's are the equivalent of about +15 to any base stat.

 

[Te-em]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

I know the risks of for instance getting the secret Pokemon in PM Diamond, but I'm ready to face those risks. It just shows how valued those Pokemon are and I'm not even sure it's counted as cheating. About external applications/devices, I haven't used those since the GSC era and will probably not use them. External applications are very unpredictable, even if you think you know what you're doing.

 

[Infinity Edge]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Are they saying that they found a way to distinct a "cheated" pokemon from a traditional one? That would be great.

On a side note, training traditional way is worse for your physical health than through cheating, if you think about it.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

They can already detect things like invalid stats or moves. The problem is that when Pokemon hacking tools can fashion Pokemon data that looks 100% indistinguishable from a legit Mon (including "met/hatched at Route X at level Y"), they have no conclusive way of saying whether a given Pokemon was hacked. A user having a large percentage of shinies and/or perfect nature/IV bred Pokemon (especially a shiny and perfect-IV Pokemon) may be suspicious, but you never know if the RNG just lucked out for that one.

Maybe for G6 there should be a rule that a Pokemon's IVs are capped at 180 (six points from perfect). There is no such thing as a "perfect" Pokemon.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

I feel no sympathy for game freak. I loathe IVs. Pokemon is supposed to be about friendship. Why should my friends be genetic ally inferior. Raising a pokemon is enough work now that work is useless because I didn't or didn't hard as some wanker who does have the emotional/procrastination/ defeatist issues I have. I have 3 RNG pokemon I traded for. If using veekun coding knowledge of Pokémon stats is okay, I'm fine with using some friendly bloke's knowledge of the RNG. But wouldn't be having this discussion if game freak didn't put something as unsavory as genetic inferiority in pokemon

 

[Almonds]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

If the Gen 6 games can detect all hacks, then hacked pokemon won't be able to get on the GTS, so other people won't be able to get them as well. Hacking will be permanently gone from the games unless someone wants to be an idiot and try to trade hacks.

Also, I'm glad they're making the system get corrupted when using cheats. Serves them right - you cheat, and there goes your favorite game.

 

[jomarcenter]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Well During the last tournament, I found a few trainer with a ton of shiny, Really I don't know if I have bad luck fighting cheater, They should ban them.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Pokemon is supposed to be about friendship. Why should my friends be genetically inferior.

If Pokemon is supposed to be about friendship then why should you even care about IV genetics in the first place?

 

[Bolt Strike]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

The statement also warns players of the risk of trading with a hacked game, as their game may also cease to function.

Okay, so punish victims who may not have known they were being traded illegal Pokemon? Nice. What about the GTS? I'm sure more than a few hacks go through there. Though when have hacks actually cased the games to stop functioning unless they were really bad? Seems more like they're hyping up fear.

I think they're just trying to scare the player into not using unauthorized software, usually if you know what you're doing, your game won't get messed up significantly. Of course that also depends on what you're doing, usually if you're just hacking in a particular Pokemon or something you'll usually end up fine, but more significant changes to the game can cause more significant problems. So it should be avoided as much as possible.

And you really shouldn't be trusting the legitimacy of Pokemon you find on the GTS, especially for rarer ones. Like you said, there's too many hacks on the GTS, so you shouldn't really be relying on that for Pokemon that you would use in a competition. Ideally, you should raise them yourself.

 

[Almonds]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

The statement also warns players of the risk of trading with a hacked game, as their game may also cease to function.

Okay, so punish victims who may not have known they were being traded illegal Pokemon? Nice. What about the GTS? I'm sure more than a few hacks go through there. Though when have hacks actually cased the games to stop functioning unless they were really bad? Seems more like they're hyping up fear.

I think they're just trying to scare the player into not using unauthorized software, usually if you know what you're doing, your game won't get messed up significantly. Of course that also depends on what you're doing, usually if you're just hacking in a particular Pokemon or something you'll usually end up fine, but more significant changes to the game can cause more significant problems. So it should be avoided as much as possible.

And you really shouldn't be trusting the legitimacy of Pokemon you find on the GTS, especially for rarer ones. Like you said, there's too many hacks on the GTS, so you shouldn't really be relying on that for Pokemon that you would use in a competition. Ideally, you should raise them yourself.

Then simply, to everyone playing Pokemon: Don't hack.

It's as simple as that.