Smogon bans and suspect tests discussion

[Psycho Pacifist]

Also, in the latest round of suspect testing in PU, both Garbador and Glalitite have been banned. Cameruptite stays in the tier.

 

[TerraTF]

I kind of have to agree with the tests. I won't be participating this time around as it seems the majority share my opinion in banning it. The fact that Pokemon can only slow it down is what makes it over powered. I'd also like to see some of the new threats that come out after this.

 

[FullMoon]

Well, goodbye Greninja, you're going to be completely useless in Ubers, but at least I can still use you in Smash.

 

[Alexey]

BANBANBANBANBANBANBANBAN

Actually, let me rephrase that, so that my point is clear and the explanation is well-structured and presented

BANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANANABANBATMAN

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Well, goodbye Greninja, you're going to be completely useless in Ubers, but at least I can still use you in Smash.

Sash T-Spikes is actually decent in Ubers, since it's one of the only viable users in Ubers I believe.

 

[Zeb]

Finally. I'm surprised it took so long for this test to happen. As much as I love Greninja, it needs to go at this point.

Also, in the latest round of suspect testing in PU, both Garbador and Glalitite have been banned. Cameruptite stays in the tier.

Mega Glalie and Pangoro were also banned from NU the other day. Mega Camerupt was also up for vote but didn't receive enough votes (only got 1 ban vote, all the other votes were to keep it).

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

I may not have enough time to ladder for this one but Ban, for sure.

 

[Fairy Type Arceus]

Well good bye greninja, he's going to be the second starter to make it to ubers...

Now I need a replacement for my greninja. I admit the guys good but I never saw him getting banned over a poison type attack

 

[Stella Vermillion]

There are some good counters to Greninja.

Some of them i see are actually a Cacturne and Whimsicott. Lanturn and Milotic can both deal damage to Greninja. Just because it learned a Physical Poison type move doesn't mean it should get banned. Whimsicott can actually Grass Whistle and put greninja to sleep and on the following turn follow up with a giga drain.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

There are some good counters to Greninja.

Some of them i see are actually a Cacturne and Whimsicott. Lanturn and Milotic can both deal damage to Greninja. Just because it learned a Physical Poison type move doesn't mean it should get banned. Whimsicott can actually Grass Whistle and put greninja to sleep and on the following turn follow up with a giga drain.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 536-640 (165.4 - 197.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cacturne: 476-562 (169.3 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 185-218 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 289-343 (73.3 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Duosion]

Greninja is one of those pokemon you can slap on literally any team and it will do well, and barely nothing bar alomomomola and pory2 can reliably switch in.

I love greninja, and while he is indeed the best pokemon currently in OU, I dont find him anywhere near broken enough to get banned.

 

[TerraTF]

Greninja is one of those pokemon you can slap on literally any team and it will do well, and barely nothing bar alomomomola and pory2 can reliably switch in.

I love greninja, and while he is indeed the best pokemon currently in OU, I dont find him anywhere near broken enough to get banned.

It has such a deep movepool that its set is almost unpredictable. The only moves you can count Greninja running are Ice Beam and Gunk Shot. Every move after that is nothing but slashes. Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump/Scald/Low Kick/Extrasensory/Hidden Power This/Hidden Power That. Greninja has one of the deepest movepools in the game. It has an unpredictable typing and very little in the current meta reliably counters it. Like you said, the only Pokemon that can counter it are Porygon2 and Alomomola. When a Pokemon has to be placed on a team to specifically counter a single Pokemon it needs to be banned.

 

[DasManiac]

Greninja is one of those pokemon you can slap on literally any team and it will do well, and barely nothing bar alomomomola and pory2 can reliably switch in.

I love greninja, and while he is indeed the best pokemon currently in OU, I dont find him anywhere near broken enough to get banned.

It has such a deep movepool that its set is almost unpredictable. The only moves you can count Greninja running are Ice Beam and Gunk Shot. Every move after that is nothing but slashes. Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump/Scald/Low Kick/Extrasensory/Hidden Power This/Hidden Power That. Greninja has one of the deepest movepools in the game. It has an unpredictable typing and very little in the current meta reliably counters it. Like you said, the only Pokemon that can counter it are Porygon2 and Alomomola. When a Pokemon has to be placed on a team to specifically counter a single Pokemon it needs to be banned.

Greninja is not broken. Torrent Greninja isn't broken. The issue should be is Protean Greninja broken? The suspect test should be for that and regular Greninja should not be banned. Torrent Greninja is not broken. The use of Protean on Greninja is the issue. The suspect test is therefore rigged in favor of banning it all together. It's clear that once the staff has an agenda like they did with Mega Gengar.

 

[Norzan]

I'm not much a competitive battler and i'm subscribed to two competitive battlers on Youtube and after watching a bunch of videos with Greninja in it even i think it's too strong. Too fast, unpredictable in its moveset, Protean which means STAB on every move and with ORAS move tutors it gains moves that wreck the counters it had in XY.

Barely anything can switch safely against it and it pretty much 2HKOs every mon with some exceptions, you pretty much have to sack a mon to switch in safely against it and this makes the metagame more unhealthy than already it is.

 

[DasManiac]

I'm not much a competitive battler and i'm subscribed to two competitive battlers on Youtube and after watching a bunch of videos with Greninja in it even i think it's too strong. Too fast, unpredictable in its moveset, Protean which means STAB on every move and with ORAS move tutors it gains moves that wreck the counters it had in XY.

Barely anything can switch safely against it and it pretty much 2HKOs every mon with some exceptions, you pretty much have to sack a mon to switch in safely against it and this makes the metagame more unhealthy than already it is.

Only with Protean can it do all that. Torrent Greninja can't. If they want to ban something then it should be Protean Greninja not regular Greninja. A complex ban banning the use of Protean on Greninja is how to solve the issue. They did that with Sand Veil Garchomp.

 

[TerraTF]

Greninja is one of those pokemon you can slap on literally any team and it will do well, and barely nothing bar alomomomola and pory2 can reliably switch in.

I love greninja, and while he is indeed the best pokemon currently in OU, I dont find him anywhere near broken enough to get banned.

It has such a deep movepool that its set is almost unpredictable. The only moves you can count Greninja running are Ice Beam and Gunk Shot. Every move after that is nothing but slashes. Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump/Scald/Low Kick/Extrasensory/Hidden Power This/Hidden Power That. Greninja has one of the deepest movepools in the game. It has an unpredictable typing and very little in the current meta reliably counters it. Like you said, the only Pokemon that can counter it are Porygon2 and Alomomola. When a Pokemon has to be placed on a team to specifically counter a single Pokemon it needs to be banned.

Greninja is not broken. Torrent Greninja isn't broken. The issue should be is Protean Greninja broken? The suspect test should be for that and regular Greninja should not be banned. Torrent Greninja is not broken. The use of Protean on Greninja is the issue. The suspect test is therefore rigged in favor of banning it all together. It's clear that once the staff has an agenda like they did with Mega Gengar.

Blaze Blaziken isn't broken. Mega Lucario isn't broken without Adaptability. Mega Kangaskhan isn't broken without Parental Bond.

What you've just described is a complex ban and is a total waste of time. In October Torrent was used on 2.871% of Greninja. That's the equivalent of 1 in every 50 Greninja running Torrent. Its nearly mathematically impossible to run into a Greninja running Torrent when Greninja was only on 17% of teams in October. In the OU ladder above 1825, which is real OU mind you, Greninja was used on 14.5% of teams with Torrent being ran on 0.662% of Greninja. Torrent usage on Greninja is nearly non-existent which is why considering it as a factor is one of the worst things in the world.

Now of course if you don't want Greninja gone build a team and go to the suspect ladder and achieve a COIL rating of 2700. You don't even need to be good to get a COIL of 2700. COIL is based on quality of play and battle ability. Now if you don't have time to ladder in the next two weeks head over to the Suspect Thread and voice a valid opinion outside of "But Torrent Greninja isn't broken. Just complex ban Protean." Torrent Greninja isn't broken because its rarely used.

Only with Protean can it do all that. Torrent Greninja can't. If they want to ban something then it should be Protean Greninja not regular Greninja. A complex ban banning the use of Protean on Greninja is how to solve the issue. They did that with Sand Veil Garchomp.

Just saw this. Sand Veil Garchomp was not a complex ban. The ban was all evasion lowering items, moves, and abilities. As far as I remember that specific ban only applied in Gen 4. The current Evasion Clause is only evasion lowering items and moves.

 

[Zeb]

Greninja is not broken. Torrent Greninja isn't broken. The issue should be is Protean Greninja broken? The suspect test should be for that and regular Greninja should not be banned. Torrent Greninja is not broken. The use of Protean on Greninja is the issue. The suspect test is therefore rigged in favor of banning it all together. It's clear that once the staff has an agenda like they did with Mega Gengar.

No offence dude, but after your post in Smogon's Mega Salamence thread saying it wasn't broken and calling Aerilate a useless ability on it, I'm inclined to take whatever you say about competitive battling with a massive grain of salt. Also don't start throwing around petty accusations about the staff rigging anything, because this isn't even remotely rigged and the majority of their community (users) have wanted this for a while now. If you don't understand how Smogon works (they don't ban an ability on a mon unless the ability is broken on everything that gets it) then it'd be better if you went and did some research on how they tier before commenting on it in this negative manner because it's clear you don't have all the facts. If they start neutering broken things down to fit OU, then let's have Mega Mawile back but it can only use Fairy Wind as STAB, Mega Salamence without Dragon Dance and Substitute and bring back Mega Lucario but it can only use special sets.

They did that with Sand Veil Garchomp.

No, they did that with Sand Veil (and also Snow Veil) everything because things like Gliscor were haxing with Sand Veil. Unless you want to make a case that Protean is broken on Kecleon then Protean isn't getting banned on Greninja.

 

[Morningstar]

I admit the guys good but I never saw him getting banned over a poison type attack

Such is the impact the Fae have over the metagame

Greninja is not broken. Torrent Greninja isn't broken. The issue should be is Protean Greninja broken?

Torrent Greninja isn't broken.

Torrent Greninja

I just raised that question in Smogon, Thinking that Protean was the only thing Greninja had going for it, but now you're telling me it has Torrent...

Yeah Greninja is getting the banhammer

 

[Alexey]

*grabs popcorn*

 

[The Outrage]

No offence dude, but after your post in Smogon's Mega Salamence thread saying it wasn't broken and calling Aerilate a useless ability on it, I'm inclined to take whatever you say about competitive battling with a massive grain of salt. Also don't start throwing around petty accusations about the staff rigging anything, because this isn't even remotely rigged and the majority of their community (users) have wanted this for a while now. If you don't understand how Smogon works (they don't ban an ability on a mon unless the ability is broken on everything that gets it) then it'd be better if you went and did some research on how they tier before commenting on it in this negative manner because it's clear you don't have all the facts. If they start neutering broken things down to fit OU, then let's have Mega Mawile back but it can only use Fairy Wind as STAB, Mega Salamence without Dragon Dance and Substitute and bring back Mega Lucario but it can only use special sets.

They did that with Sand Veil Garchomp.

No, they did that with Sand Veil (and also Snow Veil) everything because things like Gliscor were haxing with Sand Veil. Unless you want to make a case that Protean is broken on Kecleon then Protean isn't getting banned on Greninja.

To add to this, the reason it has to be an across-the-board ban rather than nitpicking on sets is because then anything uber can be brought down if you apply enough bans, creating a slippery slope of precedence. Think Mega Salamence is ban-worthy? Not if it has no normal moves, making Aerialate useless! Kyogre wouldn't be that bad if we limit it to moves that only have 40 base power as well!