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Review JN059: The Lost Sarunori! Who is the Trainer!?

PkmnTrainerV said:
Maybe I exaggerated with the Stockholm syndrome analogy but the wording is not really an excuse to discredit the fact that it’s a problem in the series. An entire protagonist who has absolutely no conflict and challenges in his goal makes for a pretty boring watch.
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To clarify, I'm not trying to discredit the issue of Goh having little to no conflict in his goal. I can definitely understand how that can make watching him boring or unappealing. I just don't think that Goh's Pokemon being happy right away with him would contribute to that problem because it's not unusual for Pokemon to be instantly fine with their trainers in the anime.

Jez said:
I'm so depressed by this episode that I don't even want to express my disappointment but ... by reading this post I was planning to drop some quick evidence here that Team Rocket also cares about pokemon they don't own.
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I didn't mean to imply that they've never cared for Pokemon that they don't own. Jessie bonding with Ditto earlier in the series is a solid example too and it is one of the best episodes in Journeys thus far. I am saying that they are still criminals, so the notion that they'd be more focused on Grookey being a rare Pokemon instead of bonding with it doesn't really sound too much of a stretch for them either. Although, some of your examples did include them showing concern for their gotcha Pokemon, so that is a fair point too.
 
Hidden Mew said:
I just don't think that Goh's Pokemon being happy right away with him would contribute to that problem because it's not unusual for Pokemon to be instantly fine with their trainers in the anime.
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I had kind of adjusted to that issue, till today where we saw ONE Pokémon who wasn’t satisfied with who owned it, and ironically it went straight to Gou.
If I had any energy in me to have conspiracy theories regarding this series I’d have theorised that Gou is some Pokémon whisperer.
 
Well, don't argue with that and besides the bulbapedia maintenance started 4 days ago. How come it didn't stop?
 
PkmnTrainerV said:
I had kind of adjusted to that issue, till today where we saw ONE Pokémon who wasn’t satisfied with who owned it, and ironically it went straight to Gou.
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I do think we have seen other examples over the years. Not much, but Ash's Froakie comes to my mind.

The only difference I can think of is that Froakies former trainers seemed to eventually have agreed to the seperation. Of course, those trainers did spend some time with Froakie.

Maybe it would have been a good compromise if Grookey was seen a little bit more under the care of TRio, they also saw it didn't want to stay with the Team Rocket organisation and they agreed to look the other way so it could 'escape'. The outcome would have been the same, but TRio would have been used better.

Maybe the writers were afraid this would mean they couldn't use Grookey in the future to attack TRio since they had some friendly bond. However, I think it would be an intetesting dynamic and it's not like Ash, Goh, Chloë and co don't have enough Pokémon to battle TRio. Now... I wonder if TRio will recognise Grookey as a traitor in the future.
 
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Sobblelelle said:
Complete sense. Pokemon have always understood the pokeball and trainer dynamics even when wild, which is how so many pokemon including newly hatched Riolu ask to be caught.
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... Riolu wanted to improve with Ash.
His decision was informed by being beaten up by wild Pokemon, Ash stepping in to save him, and displaying his Aura, and even after he made that choice, his mannerisms didn't imply that he's liking Ash, not yet anyway.

This is what I'd like to see, by the way. A Pokemon having reasons to want to stay with the person that captured it, and not liking their captor instantaneously since they well... Don't know that person at all. And the Pokemon can gain its reasons after the capture, so long as they make sense.

I'm pretty confident plenty of children on this planet are really unhappy with the idea of school, despite knowing that it's everyone's responsibility to spend a portion of their life there, for a reall life example of a case where people understand the consequences and how things function in the society but are still reluctant to abide this. Not everyone likes their jobs too, and I could go on and on, but people don't like things just because they understand them.

And that doesn't even come close to explaining why would they like the specific individuall that captured them, since they should not be aware of who that person even is. They should get to know them before deciding if they like them or not, much like a person who tries out a job can absolutelly come to the conclusion that they don't like it, or people who have only just met don't know if they're actually going to like each other.

Hidden Mew said:
The reason I don't see it as a problem is that it's kind of one of the main aspects of the franchise. You catch wild Pokemon and bond with them.
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Won't making all of Goh's Pokemon like him instantaneously with minimall input from him take away from that aspect then, though?

Hidden Mew said:
Realistically, it shouldn't be that simple when you are taking wild creatures away from their home, but when has Pokemon been realistic? Ash does typically bond or connect with his Pokemon before catching them, but he has still battle Pokemon to capture them first too. Same with other characters in the anime too. If we get upset over Goh's Pokemon being perfectly fine with their situation, then it seems like we should be mad over any Pokemon in the anime being caught. It doesn't seem fair to focus just on Goh's Pokemon when it comes to that.
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I wouldn't say it's about realism, but more so about characterization:
Who is the Pokemon that is being captured? What are its traits, what is its history, what is its motivation in staying with the human that captured it? Does it care, and why? What does it expect to have from being with a human?
The justification that it's normall for a Pokemon to be fine with being captured regardless of these factors because that's how it usually is comes across to me as using a sort of... Shortcut to try and avoid characterizing them.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there that we shouldn't be focusing on Goh's Pokemon alone, but there is a reason that it sticks out with him and is pointed out more often than with other characters...
Lengthy reasoning will be put in spoiler for reading convenience.

For starters, severall of the Pokemon Goh has captured are ones that were portrayed to be agressive, territorial, and/or reluctant to be captured. So them being instantly fine with him would be at odds with their pre-established character.
You could argue that the writers don't need to have an extensive character established for them because there's so many of them that characterizing all of them would be difficult and redundant. The issue with this defense is that we have episodes focusing exclusively on characterizing Goh's Pokemon (like this one), and also that the writers aren't obligated to have him succeed in capturing everything he tries, so the issue of him having too many Pokemon is generated as a result of earlier writing decisions.

You could also argue that Goh was shown to care for them. Only here's the thing, Goh can't always be around to take care of them, and whenever he leaves, he would only have a team of six. This, and the more Pokemon he has, the harder it should become to manage them all, obviously. Episode 23 already showed a turmoil between these Pokemon that happened regardless of Goh's actions (it was pretty bad, though).

And putting all of that aside, there's also a criticizm I have that I don't see much people use and I'm not really confident in but... Goh has been portrayed to be rather selfish early on and even now he still lacks sociall skills. So does it really make much sense that he would always be capable of doing exactly the thing he needs to do to get a Pokemon to like him? Even with those that are more territorial, agressive, unpredictable...?

This, and... Being liked by everyone in their story is a common Mary Sue trait. And considering the fact that Goh is not only liked by Pokemon he's caught, but also by most human characters he's met, it's very easy to spot a pattern here and become frustrated with it.

And of course, finally, he is, at least to my knowledge, the only character in the anime's history that undertook the mission of really catching them all and the writers appear to take it seriously to the point of giving him easy successes, and this alone should be enough to show that he stands out.

Now, as someone who hasn't seen a whole lot of this anime I admit that I'm not aware to what exact extent these are applicable to other characters... But are people really obligated to give their opinions on every other thing before making a statement on Goh?

Anyway, I hope now you do understand a little better why some people (or at least I do) have this complaint.
Hidden Mew said:
I can understand being upset about that, but jumping on me with a sudden sarcastic response wasn't a good solution. It didn't make me eager to respond back, but just upset because I felt insulted and belittled, which is becoming too typical whenever I talk about Goh here practically. Of course, I wasn't trying to be dismissive or rude earlier and I apologize if I came off as such.
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Once again, I apologize for what I did. I'm admittebly used to using sarcasm in responses to people, and also see a lot of people do that, and didn't think that it would be offensive in this case.

Do you and @Sobblelelle want to continue this conversation somewhere else? Because it feels like it's becoming slightly off topic at this point.
 
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In Pokémon Bulb, sorry off topic but will Team rocket Chewtle have its own page.
it had 3-4eps of its personality
 
Please note: The thread is from 3 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.

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