SPOILERS: Masters Eight Discussion/Speculation Thread

[El Squibbonator]

So, how do you think the tournament is going to go down-- who's going to battle who, and who will win?

 

[Blob]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet or not, but the referee said that Ash and Raihan's battle used the same rules as the Masters Tournament.

Spoiler

I.E. 3v3, and only one of Dynamax, Mega Evolution, or a Z-Move.

What a waste. This confirms that Ash won't be using any reserves. Also what is with the anime and using 3 Vs. 3? Since when did people claim that should be the most amount of Pokémon used in a battle? Also 3 vs. 3 wouldn't be SO bad if Ash fought more than 3 trainers...

I don't get why the PEAK of a competition can only allow people to use 3 Pokémon. It's literally the best of the best, so why can't everyone just go-all out? If PWC was made when it had the same writers as OG-XY, it WOULD have been all 6 Vs. 6.

 

[Rath]

What a waste. This confirms that Ash won't be using any reserves. Also what is with the anime and using 3 Vs. 3? Since when did people claim that should be the most amount of Pokémon used in a battle? Also 3 vs. 3 wouldn't be SO bad if Ash fought more than 3 trainers...

I don't get why the PEAK of a competition can only allow people to use 3 Pokémon. It's literally the best of the best, so why can't everyone just go-all out? If PWC was made when it had the same writers as OG-XY, it WOULD have been all 6 Vs. 6.

Time/animation budget constraints, if it was 6v6 they'd probably skip/rush through every battle not involving Ash or Leon.

3v3 lets things move at a decent pace while also not needing to offscreen as many battles.

 

[Blob]

Time/animation budget constraints, if it was 6v6 they'd probably skip/rush through every battle not involving Ash or Leon.

3v3 lets things move at a decent pace while also not needing to offscreen as many battles.

Again though, we'll only be seeing 7 battles and non-Ash and Iris fights can be mostly skipped over. I don't get why logistically the PWC has such stupid rules. Each fight should have different challenges to really push the trainers to their limits.

Round 1 could be a triple battle round.
Round 2 could be inverse battles.
The Finals could be a classic 6 vs. 6 round, but the opponents select the Pokémon the other uses.

I also don't get the Z-Move thing. Since when would anyone but Ash in the PWC have access to Z-Moves? Alain MAYBE, but that leaves his ace depowered.

 

[Sai]

What a waste. This confirms that Ash won't be using any reserves. Also what is with the anime and using 3 Vs. 3? Since when did people claim that should be the most amount of Pokémon used in a battle? Also 3 vs. 3 wouldn't be SO bad if Ash fought more than 3 trainers...

I don't get why the PEAK of a competition can only allow people to use 3 Pokémon. It's literally the best of the best, so why can't everyone just go-all out? If PWC was made when it had the same writers as OG-XY, it WOULD have been all 6 Vs. 6.

We have no confirmation Masters 8 is 3 on 3. He was referring to this match and talking about the rules. I also don't see why you would think that would imply he can't use old pokemon either. It's obvious Leon will be 6 on 6 so Ash can use his full JN team against him as shown in the opening.

 

[Rath]

We have no confirmation Masters 8 is 3 on 3. He was referring to this match and talking about the rules. I also don't see why you would think that would imply he can't use old pokemon either. It's obvious Leon will be 6 on 6 so Ash can use his full JN team against him as shown in the opening.

He said "Masters Tournament regulations", then said "3v3, only 1 gimmick allowed"

Context clues

 

[Lucifer Angel]

I just want to see a better rematch with Alain where hopefully Greninja returns again to do battle.

 

[Rath]

There's no hype for an Ash vs Alain rematch. There's a difference between what fans want to see and what the series itself is trying to hype up. There is no build-up at all for an Ash vs Alain rematch, and even if it happens, it would be hollow and unable to live up to their Kalos League battle.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

Funny, that's exactly what I wanted to post right now after thinking about it for one whole evening. (Yeah, I admit I really got hyped and caught up in that )
There has to be a "normal" Masters Eight during the season when the members compete for their respective ranks. And it must also be possible for them to drop out of that class (see Flint and Raihan). Then, at the end of the season, there is that tournament exclusive to the Masters Eight where the monarch is determined. In my eyes this is the only theory that can explain what we've seen so far.

This is not exactly unprecedented in real life. I recently had to Judge at VEX World, a massive robotics tournament across the world, which uses a ranking system similar to the PWC. One must compete in X number of matches before being selected for an elimination round based on where you stand within the brackets. Lose too much and your ranking goes down.

 

[Kurolegacy]

He said "Masters Tournament regulations", then said "3v3, only 1 gimmick allowed"

Context clues

You know, worst part about that is that it’s basically the writers’ way of saying don’t expect less, like how in Hyper class it started out with 3 v 3 only to randomly have a 1 v 1 and 2 v 2, but at the same time, don’t expect more like full battles. Sad thing is that most leagues had reached full battles by the top 8 round yet the tournament to decide the best trainer in the world is doing only 3 v 3. It’s obvious why the writers set it up that way but I’d love to know what the in-universe logic is supposed to be.

 

[Rockapheller]

I am pretty sure the final battle will be 6 vs 6 full battle. They can't finish the PWC with 3 Pokémon each by Ash and Leon just like that.

 

[Hidden Mew]

What a waste. This confirms that Ash won't be using any reserves. Also what is with the anime and using 3 Vs. 3? Since when did people claim that should be the most amount of Pokémon used in a battle? Also 3 vs. 3 wouldn't be SO bad if Ash fought more than 3 trainers...

I thought that it was pretty likely that Ash wouldn't use his reserves for ages. Maybe I could see them using Greninja for his battle against Alain, but aside from that, I suspect that they'd want him to keep using his current team. I don't think that three-on-three is a bad setup for this tournament. That's half of a regular team, can give a good amount of spotlight for the main characters' Pokemon and showcase the skills of trainers pretty effectively. Honestly, the PWC could have been a far more engaging goal if all of the matches were three-on-three. That would have been better than the quick one-on-one battles or even two-on-two matches they've had throughout the PWC. It wouldn't guarantee high quality battles, but it would be more impressive than defeating trainers in relatively short battles.

I don't get why the PEAK of a competition can only allow people to use 3 Pokémon. It's literally the best of the best, so why can't everyone just go-all out? If PWC was made when it had the same writers as OG-XY, it WOULD have been all 6 Vs. 6.

I highly doubt that, especially when a lot of this would also be due to the animation budget. Not to mention other series weren't packed with full battles either. We didn't get a proper full battle in the original series until the Orange Islands and most Leagues don't have more than two full battles. The Kalos League in particular was pretty rushed, skipping over most of Ash's battles and we still only got two full battles for that arc. I'd suspect that they'd want to save any full battles for the last stretch of the PWC instead of going all out from the start and using up their budget.

There's no hype for an Ash vs Alain rematch. There's a difference between what fans want to see and what the series itself is trying to hype up. There is no build-up at all for an Ash vs Alain rematch, and even if it happens, it would be hollow and unable to live up to their Kalos League battle.

While I do agree that their rematch would feel kind of hollow, I honestly don't know why they'd bring back Alain if they weren't going to have them battle again. There isn't any build up, but I assume that they wanted his return to be a surprise and having them meet prior to the reveal of the Master Class trainers or have more buildup for their rematch would have weakened that surprise. Admittedly, bringing back Alain only for them to not use this as an opportunity for Ash to defeat Alain would be kind of hilarious, but I'm also pretty sure that they'd want to create more hype and buzz by Ash finally defeating Alain in the PWC.

 

[Alola]

So, how do you think the tournament is going to go down-- who's going to battle who, and who will win?

For time purposes, since we're in May and there are only several months before SV, I think Ash will only battle 3 of the Masters 8. They also have to finish Go's arc, whatever they're doing with Chloe, and any other cameos, so I don't see Ash having the time to battle all seven combatants.

They'll most likely put in them brackets. I think Ash will battle Alain first, then Cynthia, and finally Leon. We'll see the others battle each other, but probably in snippets rather than any kind of complete battle; I'd imagine they'd pair Cynthia and Diantha for their contrast and marketing factor. I just hope Ash's battles are all Full Battles; it'd be incredibly underwhelming if they weren't.

 

[Daren]

Admittedly, bringing back Alain only for them to not use this as an opportunity for Ash to defeat Alain would be kind of hilarious

Nobody should completely discount the possibility he's here to lose to Leon to both set Leon up as a powerhouse one more time and cushion the blow of a Charizard losing by having it lose to another Charizard. Weirder things have happened in this franchise.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Admittedly, bringing back Alain only for them to not use this as an opportunity for Ash to defeat Alain would be kind of hilarious, but I'm also pretty sure that they'd want to create more hype and buzz by Ash finally defeating Alain in the PWC.

Nobody should completely discount the possibility he's here to lose to Leon to both set Leon up as a powerhouse one more time and cushion the blow of a Charizard losing by having it lose to another Charizard. Weirder things have happened in this franchise.

I have to admit that Alain being in the Masters 8 actually scares me a little because it might mean that Ash won't defeat Leon after all, since it would be very unlike the anime to let two Charizards get KO'd what with how much they've been worshipping the species these past several years. Granted, maybe they'll let Ash use other reserves besides Greninja, and if he does and Charizard is among them they can actually let both Leon and Alain lose now that the Charizard species gets to preserve its reputation as The Strongest Pokemon Ever™ due to the winner of the PWC also using one.

 

[Sai]

You know, worst part about that is that it’s basically the writers’ way of saying don’t expect less, like how in Hyper class it started out with 3 v 3 only to randomly have a 1 v 1 and 2 v 2, but at the same time, don’t expect more like full battles. Sad thing is that most leagues had reached full battles by the top 8 round yet the tournament to decide the best trainer in the world is doing only 3 v 3. It’s obvious why the writers set it up that way but I’d love to know what the in-universe logic is supposed to be.

I can only see the first rounds being 3 on 3.

The semi-finals and Leon match will certainly be 6 on 6. Getting two 6 on 6 battles would be expected and the same thing XY did. Obviously Ash is going to use his full JN team against Leon so that being 6 on 6 is no brainer. I also expect a few old pokemon they spotlight to return since the writers have been good with bringing characters back.

They had Wikstrom return to watch Sirfetch"d beat Drasna, had Iris fullfill her promise of making it to Master Class, had Go's Suicune come back, had Korrina return for the Bea match, showed Bea during Allisters Gym and Allister watching Marnie's match, etc. They will likely do the same with Greninja and Infernape, maybe even Incineroar if it get spotlight in the Alola ep. I also think Ash's Kanto starters will get a proper reunion since they're on both posters where everything has eventually happened.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Nobody should completely discount the possibility he's here to lose to Leon to both set Leon up as a powerhouse one more time and cushion the blow of a Charizard losing by having it lose to another Charizard. Weirder things have happened in this franchise.

I suppose that's possible. It would be such a weird move to use Alain to set up Leon as a powerhouse, especially when they could easily do that with practically any of the regional Champions. He already defeated Lance at the start of the series, but defeating someone like Steven or Cynthia would do the same thing. Using Alain as fodder for Leon instead of giving a proper rematch for Ash would create quite a bit of chaos, but I'd also still get a bit of a laugh out of it.

I have to admit that Alain being in the Masters 8 actually scares me a little because it might mean that Ash won't defeat Leon after all, since it would be very unlike the anime to let two Charizards get KO'd what with how much they've been worshipping the species these past several years. Granted, maybe they'll let Ash use other reserves besides Greninja, and if he does and Charizard is among them they can actually let both Leon and Alain lose now that the Charizard species gets to preserve its reputation as The Strongest Pokemon Ever™ due to the winner of the PWC also using one.

Even if Alain wasn't there, I'm still not if Leon would lose. I really don't know if I could see them bringing back Ash's reserves besides Greninja. He's gotten to the Master Class with his current team and even with knowing that he'll be battling against regional Champions, I'm just not sure that he'd want to use his reserves, especially when he's already defeated a Champion with his current team.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I suppose that's possible. It would be such a weird move to use Alain to set up Leon as a powerhouse, especially when they could easily do that with practically any of the regional Champions. He already defeated Lance at the start of the series, but defeating someone like Steven or Cynthia would do the same thing. Using Alain as fodder for Leon instead of giving a proper rematch for Ash would create quite a bit of chaos, but I'd also still get a bit of a laugh out of it.


Even if Alain wasn't there, I'm still not if Leon would lose. I really don't know if I could see them bringing back Ash's reserves besides Greninja. He's gotten to the Master Class with his current team and even with knowing that he'll be battling against regional Champions, I'm just not sure that he'd want to use his reserves, especially when he's already defeated a Champion with his current team.

Another thing that would cause chaos would be for Ash to beat Alain but without Greninja... which, I'm gonna be perfectly honest I actually wouldn't mind that much if Ash doesn't use any reserves: I just think it would be both hugely unfair and kinda cheap if Greninja was the only reserve to return and get redemption, so in my not so humble opinion if Greninja gets to have a glorious rematch then at least some of the other reserves should get to have comebacks too. Heck, Incineroar hasn't had any battles in its current form, so I'd actually be much more invested in seeing it participate in the Masters 8 tournament than Greninja.

WARNING, CRACKPOT THEORY INCOMING: I know that Greninja getting revenge by proxy through training Lucario and Lucario being the one to beat Charizard would feel like a huge letdown to many but if we recall, Alain was supposedly based on Anakin Skywalker, which in turn means that we could think of his Charizard as being Anakin/Vader as well. Meaning that we're left with these parallels:

• Mega Charizard X= Darth Vader
• Greninja= Obi Wan
• Lucario= Luke Skywalker

I cracked the code guys. I have cracked it!/End crackpot theory.

I do agree with Ash beating Leon being something of a 50/50 shot at best regardless of the circumstances, though.

 

[Daren]

I have to admit that Alain being in the Masters 8 actually scares me a little because it might mean that Ash won't defeat Leon after all, since it would be very unlike the anime to let two Charizards get KO'd what with how much they've been worshipping the species these past several years. Granted, maybe they'll let Ash use other reserves besides Greninja, and if he does and Charizard is among them they can actually let both Leon and Alain lose now that the Charizard species gets to preserve its reputation as The Strongest Pokemon Ever™ due to the winner of the PWC also using one.

A clip that's popped up on youtube a few times recently reminded me of Johto, where we have a Charizard having a "scary face" contest with Totodile that ends with it trying to suck it's gut up and falling backwards cartoonishly and losing the battle.
Weird to see how things have become.

WARNING, CRACKPOT THEORY INCOMING: I know that Greninja getting revenge by proxy through training Lucario and Lucario being the one to beat Charizard would feel like a huge letdown to many but if we recall, Alain was supposedly based on Anakin Skywalker, which in turn means that we could think of his Charizard as being Anakin/Vader as well. Meaning that we're left with these parallels:

• Mega Charizard X= Darth Vader
• Greninja= Obi Wan
• Lucario= Luke Skywalker

Spoiler: I know these movies are old but just to be safe

But when Obi Wan fought Vader in Episode III he won.

 

[Blob]

I thought that it was pretty likely that Ash wouldn't use his reserves for ages. Maybe I could see them using Greninja for his battle against Alain, but aside from that, I suspect that they'd want him to keep using his current team. I don't think that three-on-three is a bad setup for this tournament. That's half of a regular team, can give a good amount of spotlight for the main characters' Pokemon and showcase the skills of trainers pretty effectively. Honestly, the PWC could have been a far more engaging goal if all of the matches were three-on-three. That would have been better than the quick one-on-one battles or even two-on-two matches they've had throughout the PWC. It wouldn't guarantee high quality battles, but it would be more impressive than defeating trainers in relatively short battles.


I highly doubt that, especially when a lot of this would also be due to the animation budget. Not to mention other series weren't packed with full battles either. We didn't get a proper full battle in the original series until the Orange Islands and most Leagues don't have more than two full battles. The Kalos League in particular was pretty rushed, skipping over most of Ash's battles and we still only got two full battles for that arc. I'd suspect that they'd want to save any full battles for the last stretch of the PWC instead of going all out from the start and using up their budget.


While I do agree that their rematch would feel kind of hollow, I honestly don't know why they'd bring back Alain if they weren't going to have them battle again. There isn't any build up, but I assume that they wanted his return to be a surprise and having them meet prior to the reveal of the Master Class trainers or have more buildup for their rematch would have weakened that surprise. Admittedly, bringing back Alain only for them to not use this as an opportunity for Ash to defeat Alain would be kind of hilarious, but I'm also pretty sure that they'd want to create more hype and buzz by Ash finally defeating Alain in the PWC.

What I don't like about Alain's battle is that in the Kalos league at least it was a full battle, so that PWC manages to not only make the stakes lower than before but also fails to show all of Alain's team. For all we know he could have had a lot of new Pokémon, but we're only going to be able to see a few of them. I don't think it's right to have Ash and Alain go from a very high stakes 6 Vs. 6 battle to a mere 3. Vs. 3 one, especially since the PWC is meant to be a rank above the regional leagues. Again, what is the point of everything being 3 Vs. 3 or less? I guarantee we get a two-parter in there, somehow. Why waste a two-parter on 3 Vs. 3 fight?

If the SOLE reason for all fights being 3 Vs. 3 is because of animation limitations, make it 4 Vs. 4 instead. That way each rank has trainers fight with one more Pokémon. Normal is 1, Great is 2, Ultra is 3 and Master is 4. It's pointless to have both Ultra and Master cups have the same amount of Pokémon, since it just means we have Ultra twice, but this time with Champions.