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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

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darksteel6 said:
M2M's "Don't Say You Love Me" seems to have been fondly remembered, it's got quite a few views on Youtube. I'd love to see Todd in the Shadows do a "One Hit Wonderland" episode on that song one of these days.
I was personally fine with the soundtrack and I totally get why it was done that way at the time as back then there was a separation between "real anime" like Miyazaki's films that were distributed by Disney and stayed pretty faithful to the original dub and stuff like Pokemon that was mostly aimed at younger audiences, so the logic must've been to put in pop songs to appeal to the kids. It certainly worked on me at any rate and I remember renting the Pokemon CDs from my local library and listening to them many times.
I don't think 4Kids made more work for other localizers personally. As from what i've heard many foreign dubs of anime 4Kids dubbed like F-Zero GP Legend keep 4Kids scripts pretty much intact.
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Well of course. A dubbing companies job is to take the show and bring it to their language, not Frankenstein shows like 4kid did. I wish someone would sub the rest of the Hungarian F-Zero GP Legend episodes to see the rewrites 4kids did since that English dub seems lost forever at this rate.
 
darksteel6 said:
I was personally fine with the soundtrack and I totally get why it was done that way at the time as back then there was a separation between "real anime" like Miyazaki's films that were distributed by Disney and stayed pretty faithful to the original dub and stuff like Pokemon that was mostly aimed at younger audiences, so the logic must've been to put in pop songs to appeal to the kids. It certainly worked on me at any rate and I remember renting the Pokemon CDs from my local library and listening to them many times.
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Why did there need to be a separation in the first place though? It's not like many of Miyazaki's films didn't appeal to the kids regardless.

AgedVeteranofShow said:
That said, it was a different time, it was the late 1990s-2001 after all and most dubs were still not treated well back then so this was the normal way of thinking in those times. It worked on me as well, but it hasn't aged well either, per se.

If it were up to me, I'd never have re-scored, re-written, anything etc. back then, but Anime was much more niche back and dubbing standards in general were not very high outside of some Anime like Cowboy Bebop so I'm more merciful of it then than in 2023 right now.
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Yeah, it was normalized quite a bit back then so I'm reluctant to point fingers at any individual people except Al Kahn; he was out of touch even for the time but that doesn't mean it was a good way of thinking. And while it's definitely not acceptable in this day and age that doesn't mean we should just give a free pass to earlier occurrences IMO.

snowmint said:
I'm sure a lot of the dialogue in the Japanese eversion is just played straight. This is why the current dub is pretty sterile for years since it follows the Japanese version pretty closely barring team rocket apparently.
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Well, yes and no. 4Kids did of course add a lot of puns to the dialogue that weren't there originally while the current dub usually limits this to episode titles and some of Team Rocket's dialogue. On the other hand, the Japanese dialogue had its fair share of puns too, but the dub both then and now seems to prefer to ignore those if the situation makes sense without them.

snowmint said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Minasota vikings "joke" makes no sense in a lot of others countries dubs based off 4kids.
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Apparently the Scandinavian countries' dubs all found clever ways around it, but they more or less lucked out since real vikings are part of their shared history, so they made the joke about each other instead.

snowmint said:
Well of course. A dubbing companies job is to take the show and bring it to their language, not Frankenstein shows like 4kid did.
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Exactly. Most non-English dubbing companies even at the time stayed pretty faithful to the original – even when the "original" was 4Kids – because that's what a good dub is supposed to do. And even 4Kids knew this to an extent, hence the "international" branding and as Eric Stuart let slip, the primary reason 4Kids replaces the soundtrack is because they knew other dubs based on their work wouldn't do the same, so they could charge royalties for them to use their "original" soundtrack. So if 4Kids knew the non-English dubs didn't usually change things in the same way that their English dubs did, and supposedly "internationalized" those English dubs around that fact, then why also insert otherwise untranslatable puns and references into their scripts?
 
PaperSplash said:
Why did there need to be a separation in the first place though? It's not like many of Miyazaki's films didn't appeal to the kids regardless.


Yeah, it was normalized quite a bit back then so I'm reluctant to point fingers at any individual people except Al Kahn; he was out of touch even for the time but that doesn't mean it was a good way of thinking. And while it's definitely not acceptable in this day and age that doesn't mean we should just give a free pass to earlier occurrences IMO.


Well, yes and no. 4Kids did of course add a lot of puns to the dialogue that weren't there originally while the current dub usually limits this to episode titles and some of Team Rocket's dialogue. On the other hand, the Japanese dialogue had its fair share of puns too, but the dub both then and now seems to prefer to ignore those if the situation makes sense without them.


Apparently the Scandinavian countries' dubs all found clever ways around it, but they more or less lucked out since real vikings are part of their shared history, so they made the joke about each other instead.


Exactly. Most non-English dubbing companies even at the time stayed pretty faithful to the original – even when the "original" was 4Kids – because that's what a good dub is supposed to do. And even 4Kids knew this to an extent, hence the "international" branding and as Eric Stuart let slip, the primary reason 4Kids replaces the soundtrack is because they knew other dubs based on their work wouldn't do the same, so they could charge royalties for them to use their "original" soundtrack. So if 4Kids knew the non-English dubs didn't usually change things in the same way that their English dubs did, and supposedly "internationalized" those English dubs around that fact, then why also insert otherwise untranslatable puns and references into their scripts?
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Well you can partially blame film critics for that, they lionized Miyazaki's films but tended to look down upon pretty much anything else anime related so that no doubt led to execs deciding not to bother with trying to please the critics by being faithful to the original and instead aiming for kids.
 
darksteel6 said:
Well you can partially blame film critics for that, they lionized Miyazaki's films but tended to look down upon pretty much anything else anime related so that no doubt led to execs deciding not to bother with trying to please the critics by being faithful to the original and instead aiming for kids.
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That seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy though. If critics are unfairly looking down on anime then they should be proven wrong. Show them its artistic value; don't strip it away.

(I know it's not that simple – American film critics are known to have a long-standing bias against animated and foreign films in general that isn't going away anytime soon – but I don't see what dumbing things down serves to accomplish in the long run other than furthering that stigma.)
 
PaperSplash said:
That seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy though. If critics are unfairly looking down on anime then they should be proven wrong. Show them its artistic value; don't strip it away.

(I know it's not that simple – American film critics are known to have a long-standing bias against animated and foreign films in general that isn't going away anytime soon – but I don't see what dumbing things down serves to accomplish in the long run other than furthering that stigma.)
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Kind of hard to do when critics look down on most non-Miyazaki anime and wouldn't even give it a chance, i'm reminded of Roger Ebert dumping on the Speed Racer anime in his review of the live-action film, mentioning that back in the day it was largely considered filler between Gilligan's Island and The Munsters.
I don't think adding pop songs was necessarily dumbing things down.
 
PaperSplash said:
Yeah, it was normalized quite a bit back then so I'm reluctant to point fingers at any individual people except Al Kahn; he was out of touch even for the time but that doesn't mean it was a good way of thinking. And while it's definitely not acceptable in this day and age that doesn't mean we should just give a free pass to earlier occurrences IMO.



Exactly. Most non-English dubbing companies even at the time stayed pretty faithful to the original – even when the "original" was 4Kids – because that's what a good dub is supposed to do. And even 4Kids knew this to an extent, hence the "international" branding and as Eric Stuart let slip, the primary reason 4Kids replaces the soundtrack is because they knew other dubs based on their work wouldn't do the same, so they could charge royalties for them to use their "original" soundtrack. So if 4Kids knew the non-English dubs didn't usually change things in the same way that their English dubs did, and supposedly "internationalized" those English dubs around that fact, then why also insert otherwise untranslatable puns and references into their scripts?
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I think Al Kahn pretty much destroyed the company in the larger scope of things, he refused to force 4Kids (now going by 4KMedia under Konami) to adapt to the dubbing standards of the 2000s (outside of the Movies & Pikachu Shorts in Pokémon, 4Kids did a notably better job with both of these than the Anime by their end in 2006 + pretty faithful adaptations, I still think Camp Pikachu, Gotta Dance, and Lucario and the Mystery of Mew in particular are some of the best English dubs of media targeted at children I've ever seen to this day) AND he's still at it from what I've seen in his presentations and such (he thinks the "we re-write, we re-score" stuff is what HELPED them, no, it's what led to their demise IMO). It basically went straight South for the company once the Internet debuted and people found out about all the alterations they would do, mocking them for it etc: to be fair, Saban, DiC, and Nelvana all refused to stop doing this as well, and all four paid for it as time passed.

TPCi can get away with all these same practices now because "it's Pokémon, it sells" but it won't age well over time, just as it didn't for their predecessors (I think they've arguably intensified issues that plagued 4Kids here, on the whole, the latest censorship of Ash's head in ice is something even THEY never did, music replacements in Pokemon are worse in volume and amount than they were there in the main Series + have been for a decade now, 30 second OPs, TRio's dialogue is re-written in an even more unfunny way, Ash's slang-y lines at times, etc.).

I appreciate Eric Stuart being straight with us on the music changes: he seems to be misguided in thinking that these practices gave their dubs longevity back then (I think it was the talent of their VAs & musicians that did, as well as limited knowledge of alterations early on w/o the Internet as a big force), but he told us it's to make royalties when they export the Series Internationally-- both under 4Kids and has also been under TPCi, and I buy that 100%.
 
PaperSplash said:
I think comments like this are more than a little uncalled for, if not flat-out rude. You know Dogasu is doing this all during his free time for no compensation whatsoever, right? Frankly, he doesn't owe us anything. Constructive criticism is one thing but if you simply don't care about the content, I have to ask why you even bothered posting here.
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Being "rude" wasn't my intention, I was just pointing out that that specific content doesn't necessarily appeal to that many people (including me), and my latter comment about the song translation was me venting my frustration that the translation of the song actually seemed more confusing to me than the original lyrics due to how very forced some of the translated Pokemon puns seemed to be and how they don't work as well in English.

One of the most common explanations former 4Kids staffers (Michael Haigney, Eric Stuart and the like) used (and often still use) for why they did what they did is that they were trying to make the shows they dubbed "internationally friendly" – understandable by anyone regardless of native language or country.
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Not to bash the 4Kids staffers, but I feel like they either exaggerated or their comments were taken out of context, because I see the 4Kids dub and all their edits and dialogue changes that have American food and pop culture references, and I just can't see how those things would've appealed to the international audience overall.

Inserting a bunch of hard-to-translate English puns and American-centric pop culture references goes against that stated ethos. They were well aware most countries used the "international" English version they make as a basis for their own dubs (and not necessarily by choice either) and claim to have designed it around that, so why did they make the non-English localizers' work harder in that regard by including all those puns and references?
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Maybe, but it's the job of translators to translate dialogue which includes localizing puns, it's what they're paid to do. Why exactly should we feel guilty or even bothered at all by the fact that a French anime translator for instance probably had to put in extra work to translate some of 4Kids' English puns into their native language when the 4Kids translators also had to do that when translating the original Japanese puns into English? That's the crux of the issue for me.

The Japanese version, on the other hand, was originally not designed with an international audience in mind – Kanto makes that quite clear – and even when they started taking international audiences into account, they only really made surface-level aesthetic changes to compensate like phasing out Japanese text on signs and attempting to do the same with Takeshi/Brock. But most importantly, they never explicitly promised a fully "internationally-friendly" version like 4Kids did on multiple occasions.
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So we're putting the blame on 4Kids for having the audacity to make English language-friendly puns and wordplay for their dub while the Japanese version can get away scot-free with their gratuitous untranslatable puns? And people don't see that as being a bit unfair?

That's why I made sure to mention it would be dubbed with the rest of the movie. And is "generic" supposed to be a good thing in this case...? I mean, to each their own and all that – genuinely – but personally I prefer my Pokémon movie songs to actually fit the film, if not the franchise as a whole. And I don't think being a hit on the radio should be the be-all end-all for songs in general. Of course, some songs have that as their end goal, and that's fine, but I think making that a blanket expectation for songs in general would only limit the potential for creativity in the medium. Popular songs in any given language already get accused of sounding samey enough as is.
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To be clear, I mean generic in the sense that the English songs on the dub's soundtrack might appeal to the general public as a whole as opposed to that Kaze song for example, which only a niche group of the audience who like Japanese vocal songs would've appreciated. I mean, it's hard to imagine that the majority of American viewers would've loved that Kaze song (which is like a slow enka-type ballad) more than they'd appreciate a simple catchy English pop song. Even if the lyrics had been translated into English, I highly doubt that the song would've garnered interest from the general public, especially not from young kids.
 
AgedVeteranofShow said:
I think Al Kahn pretty much destroyed the company in the larger scope of things, he refused to force 4Kids (now going by 4KMedia under Konami) to adapt to the dubbing standards of the 2000s (outside of the Movies & Pikachu Shorts in Pokémon, 4Kids did a notably better job with both of these than the Anime by their end in 2006 + pretty faithful adaptations, I still think Camp Pikachu, Gotta Dance, and Lucario and the Mystery of Mew in particular are some of the best English dubs of media targeted at children I've ever seen to this day) AND he's still at it from what I've seen in his presentations and such (he thinks the "we re-write, we re-score" stuff is what HELPED them, no, it's what led to their demise IMO). It basically went straight South for the company once the Internet debuted and people found out about all the alterations they would do, mocking them for it etc: to be fair, Saban, DiC, and Nelvana all refused to stop doing this as well, and all four paid for it as time passed.

TPCi can get away with all these same practices now because "it's Pokémon, it sells" but it won't age well over time, just as it didn't for their predecessors (I think they've arguably intensified issues that plagued 4Kids here, on the whole, the latest censorship of Ash's head in ice is something even THEY never did, music replacements in Pokemon are worse in volume and amount than they were there in the main Series + have been for a decade now, 30 second OPs, TRio's dialogue is re-written in an even more unfunny way, Ash's slang-y lines at times, etc.).

I appreciate Eric Stuart being straight with us on the music changes: he seems to be misguided in thinking that these practices gave their dubs longevity back then (I think it was the talent of their VAs & musicians that did, as well as limited knowledge of alterations early on w/o the Internet as a big force), but he told us it's to make royalties when they export the Series Internationally-- both under 4Kids and has also been under TPCi, and I buy that 100%.
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Yeah his biggest mistake was giving up the company's share in TCPI which gave them an opening to do the dub in-house from then on. You are right about the slang, it reminds me of when Cloverway dubbed Sailor Moon S and Super S, people praised it for keeping the original score but criticized it for the excessive amount of slang that was added in(with "Kickin Into High Gear" being the absolute nadir of slang).
I will say that most of the people watching the dubs didn't really care about what the internet thought of them and I don't believe that really played a part in their demise, I think as anime became less niche and more accepted there was more of a gradual demand for more faithful dubs and once Funimation started doing that there wasn't really a place for the likes of 4Kids anymore. Plus there was that whole lawsuit around Chaotic(which was 4Kids attempt at creating their own TCG with a tie-in TV show).
 
darksteel6 said:
Yeah his biggest mistake was giving up the company's share in TCPI which gave them an opening to do the dub in-house from then on. You are right about the slang, it reminds me of when Cloverway dubbed Sailor Moon S and Super S, people praised it for keeping the original score but criticized it for the excessive amount of slang that was added in(with "Kickin Into High Gear" being the absolute nadir of slang).
I will say that most of the people watching the dubs didn't really care about what the internet thought of them and I don't believe that really played a part in their demise, I think as anime became less niche and more accepted there was more of a gradual demand for more faithful dubs and once Funimation started doing that there wasn't really a place for the likes of 4Kids anymore. Plus there was that whole lawsuit around Chaotic(which was 4Kids attempt at creating their own TCG with a tie-in TV show).
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Pretty much, only to add to it by this point TPCi has replaced more of the original score than 4Kids did in the case of Pokémon, brought back that style of censorship by SM basically (if not worse, in some instances, this leaves me speechless w/no comment: https://twitter.com/LostMediaDetec1/status/1665337294142812163), etc.

I also hate that for some reason, TPCi has made up words like "Scrumtchy," "Jellier," "Honey-licious," "Cutier pie," "Dancecapades," "Posters with the mosters," etc. At least 4Kids' puns were sometimes cringy at worst, this stuff makes me head-desk at the stupidity (somehow, 4Kids was able to most of the time-- not in the next episode's case, looks like they didn't even try script wise w/that one-- write in a way that was natural without a constant need to be overly cool here in this case).

I think the Uncut releases of Shaman King/Yu-Gi-Oh pre-cancellation are the direction 4Kids SHOULD have taken over time, but refused to do so, and that led to their demise in the end (FUNimation started out awful, took the opposite route they did, thriving nowadays under Crunchyroll LLC meanwhile).

TPCi is guilty of everything they did by this point in their own way, though, add to that they changed the entire VA cast 8 years in save a handful of roles in a controversial way, still having issues w/vocal direction & gave us the 30 second intros/OPs = the dub is in a dire state nowadays, IMO.
 
AgedVeteranofShow said:
Pretty much, only to add to it by this point TPCi has replaced more of the original score than 4Kids did in the case of Pokémon, brought back that style of censorship by SM basically (if not worse, in some instances, this leaves me speechless w/no comment: https://twitter.com/LostMediaDetec1/status/1665337294142812163), etc.

I also hate that for some reason, TPCi has made up words like "Scrumtchy," "Jellier," "Honey-licious," "Cutier pie," "Dancecapades," "Posters with the mosters," etc. At least 4Kids' puns were sometimes cringy at worst, this stuff makes me head-desk at the stupidity (somehow, 4Kids was able to most of the time-- not in the next episode's case, looks like they didn't even try script wise w/that one-- write in a way that was natural without a constant need to be overly cool here in this case).

I think the Uncut releases of Shaman King/Yu-Gi-Oh pre-cancellation are the direction 4Kids SHOULD have taken over time, but refused to do so, and that led to their demise in the end (FUNimation started out awful, took the opposite route they did, thriving nowadays under Crunchyroll LLC meanwhile).

TPCi is guilty of everything they did by this point in their own way, though, add to that they changed the entire VA cast 8 years in save a handful of roles in a controversial way, still having issues w/vocal direction & gave us the 30 second intros/OPs = the dub is in a dire state nowadays, IMO.
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The reason they didn't do uncut releases might've been because they had to stop doing their uncut Yugioh releases. Basically the original guy that voiced Yugi is a trained idol singer managed by Johnny's Entertainment, and that company is insanely strict about anything their performers do for other companies and they didn't want 4Kids/Funimation to do anymore DVDs featuring his voice(there is actually a trailer for the cancelled volume 4 out there)and i'm guessing 4Kids ran into a similar situation with one of the original Pokemon VAs where their company wouldn't let their voice-work be used on any kind of overseas release, so they decided to not bother doing any uncut releases(plus Pokemon was a lot less edited compared to Yugioh in terms of violence, so an uncut Pokemon release wouldn't be as enticing).
 
darksteel6 said:
The reason they didn't do uncut releases might've been because they had to stop doing their uncut Yugioh releases. Basically the original guy that voiced Yugi is a trained idol singer managed by Johnny's Entertainment, and that company is insanely strict about anything their performers do for other companies and they didn't want 4Kids/Funimation to do anymore DVDs featuring his voice(there is actually a trailer for the cancelled volume 4 out there)and i'm guessing 4Kids ran into a similar situation with one of the original Pokemon VAs where their company wouldn't let their voice-work be used on any kind of overseas release, so they decided to not bother doing any uncut releases(plus Pokemon was a lot less edited compared to Yugioh in terms of violence, so an uncut Pokemon release wouldn't be as enticing).
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I thought it was Nintendo blocking the sub?
 
darksteel6 said:
Nintendo are only in charge of the games, they have no real involvement with the anime at all.
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Any theories on why Pokémon never got an official English subbed in Japanese release overseas even after TPCi got the license? I'm a bit surprised there were slightly more subtle references to the Japanese Version in the 4Kids days than we got in the TPCi days, outside of the recent YouTube Video about Mezase Pokemon Master (I do recall 4Kids kept the instrumental for it in "Same Old Song and Dance" in Season 5's dub, and in Movie 8's dub in their final production for Pokémon-- was a specific version made for the film in 2005 in Japanese kept in 2006 in English via though in the Harmonica variant (Mezase Pokémon Master (Harmonica) - Pokémon Movie 08 UNRELEASED BGM), not sure about TPCi though).

There was something called Toonzaki where 4Kids was trying to put Japanese subbed versions of the properties they licensed into English on Crunchyroll before their demise, after they lost Pokemon (IIRC, it had Sonic X, Yu-Gi-Oh DM, Yu-Gi-Oh 5D's etc.), I sometimes wonder if this change in attitude would've led them to do so for Pocket Monsters.

RIP Toonzaki: 4Kids’ and 4K Media’s Anime Video Streaming Portal Closes, interesting read.
 
AgedVeteranofShow said:
Any theories on why Pokémon never got an official English subbed in Japanese release overseas even after TPCi got the license? I'm a bit surprised there were slightly more subtle references to the Japanese Version in the 4Kids days than we got in the TPCi days, outside of the recent Tweet about Mezase Pokemon Master (I do recall 4Kids kept the instrumental for it in "Same Old Song and Dance" in Season 5's dub, and in Movie 8's dub in their final production for Pokémon-- was a specific version made for the film in 2005 in Japanese kept in 2006 in English via though in the Harmonica variant (Mezase Pokémon Master (Harmonica) - Pokémon Movie 08 UNRELEASED BGM), not sure about TPCi though).

There was something called Toonzaki where 4Kids was trying to put Japanese subbed versions of the properties they licensed into English on Crunchyroll before their demise, after they lost Pokemon (IIRC, it had Sonic X, Yu-Gi-Oh DM, Yu-Gi-Oh 5D's etc.), I sometimes wonder if this change in attitude would've led them to do so for Pocket Monsters.

RIP Toonzaki: 4Kids’ and 4K Media’s Anime Video Streaming Portal Closes, interesting read.
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If I had to guess, i'd say it's due to the prevailing attitude of Pokemon being for kids and TCPI does not think kids want to read subtitles so they don't see any real value in putting out Japanese subs.
 
darksteel6 said:
Wow wasn't expecting to see Suede reply to Dogasu on Twitter, always nice to see two creators you admire interact.

https://twitter.com/DogasusBackpack/status/1673895063901057030
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I will say it’s interesting that this appears to be another Kids WB mandated edit for 4Kids in Season 2’s dub, just as the badge case one was in Season 6’s dub for them for a long time (I do recall TPCi would do the same in Season 17’s dub on the badge case, and also brought back the Americanization stuff from 4Kids era by then in general via removing Korrina’s kanji by then too and Kiawe’s Z move text in Season 20 as well).

Looks like this went Uncut in some places, interesting, 4Kids might not have ordered this one overall back then (it’s interesting to see the dub leave cleavage in 2000, it won’t as time passes across either run so rejoice to those…interested in that). It’s a shame an episode that kept 100% of the OST (I like Miyazaki’s work most, but I’m not as adverse to the presence of dub music as most or him— if it’s not replacing other music, I do prefer silence but it doesn’t bother me) and let this risqué stuff slip through unedited has one of the worst scripts of this Era.
 
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darksteel6 said:
Yeah he's now doing Journeys videos on Patreon so he does not have to deal with anymore copyright nonsense.
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I find it funny Dogasu won’t touch the dub of JN meanwhile, he more or less seemed to have given up on the modern dub by 2/3 into BW (the thing I really liked about his reviews from BF on were the rants about DP’s dub TRio when DuArt took over and pointing out how bad Brock sounded, don’t agree with him on what he said w/the dub portrayal on M22 as it’s the exact same voices as DP-now to me: the last time English dub Brock didn’t make my ears hurt was BF though in the main Series really).

I agree on how unbearable it is, though, that he thinks the dub was at all the same over its 25 years is something I couldn’t disagree more with that said. The voice acting, the script writing, the intros/opening themes, the music handling, replacement scoring when they don’t keep the OST, even the editing/cuts all changed dramatically over the course of its run to me in different ways.

To think it was all not good now start to end is interesting, since he takes the time to watch it regardless (he watched the entire original dub and reviewed it episode by episode as is, then went through the current dub from BF until stopping at Rival Destinies in BW). The only stuff he’s gone over since then are XYM01 (I laughed so hard at the rant about the music replacement in 2014 in a Pokémon film) and M22 (glad he reviewed that dubbed, no point in sitting though that again for me if they still just tried to TPCi flavor it instead of adapting it faithfully, aping 4Kids in the second half of it script wise but putting their voice cast in those scenes too as expected, on top of jelly donuts in 2019 was a choice).
 
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