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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

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JyuRaposa said:
I am sure Suede interacted with Dogasu a few times in the past. But it is nice to see them interact.
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Suede is interesting, the last thing I saw from him was a Review of 4Ever. Has he done anything since then save Journeys related to this franchise, curious?
 
AgedVeteranofShow said:
Suede is interesting, the last thing I saw from him was a Review of 4Ever. Has he done anything since then save Journeys related to this franchise, curious?
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I know he does Pokémon Violet, hour by hour. I really enjoy his content, which made the takedowns of Journeys really unfortunate. I have every episode review on my laptop hard drive.
 
JyuRaposa said:
I know he does Pokémon Violet, hour by hour. I really enjoy his content, which made the takedowns of Journeys really unfortunate. I have every episode review on my laptop hard drive.
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Yeah if I was him I would've told that Japanese company to go screw themselves and uploaded them anyways, from what Suede said he mainly complied because he wants to visit Japan someday and not have to worry about getting arrested, personally if something like that happened to me i'd never want to visit that country in a million years but I can see why he ultimately relented.
Anyways unfortunately that guy in that Youtube video I linked told me he does not have a DVD player so he has no way of checking if that 2011 set has that one episode uncut, i'll see if Suede knows.
 
darksteel6 said:
Dogasu is currently trying to confirm if the Region 4 2011 DVD
"Pokemon Kanto and Orange Islands Collection" has Mandarin Island Miss Match uncut, does anyone on here know? I found this one review of it on Youtube though there's no mention if it has the episode uncut or not, so i'm going to ask this guy on his Patreon page if it has that one scene intact.

https://twitter.com/DogasusBackpack/status/1673954550397681664

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0YkArEzdv4
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Australia got to see Lorelei's "assets" in all their Uncut glory, that's for sure, Kids' WB hated cleavage apparently (not all of the visual edits were mandated by the network, but some of the ones 4Kids did were: it's plausible they were forced to do so to get the episode on local TV in 2000: I buy this was possibly one of them).

Also in the comments on Twitter, Ash is a 10 year old boy- he's supposed to be a bit bratty: some of his later more stiff, robotic incarnations that came after are unrealistic for someone that age, IMO.
 
PaperSplash said:
Why did there need to be a separation in the first place though? It's not like many of Miyazaki's films didn't appeal to the kids regardless.


Yeah, it was normalized quite a bit back then so I'm reluctant to point fingers at any individual people except Al Kahn; he was out of touch even for the time but that doesn't mean it was a good way of thinking. And while it's definitely not acceptable in this day and age that doesn't mean we should just give a free pass to earlier occurrences IMO.


Well, yes and no. 4Kids did of course add a lot of puns to the dialogue that weren't there originally while the current dub usually limits this to episode titles and some of Team Rocket's dialogue. On the other hand, the Japanese dialogue had its fair share of puns too, but the dub both then and now seems to prefer to ignore those if the situation makes sense without them.


Apparently the Scandinavian countries' dubs all found clever ways around it, but they more or less lucked out since real vikings are part of their shared history, so they made the joke about each other instead.


Exactly. Most non-English dubbing companies even at the time stayed pretty faithful to the original – even when the "original" was 4Kids – because that's what a good dub is supposed to do. And even 4Kids knew this to an extent, hence the "international" branding and as Eric Stuart let slip, the primary reason 4Kids replaces the soundtrack is because they knew other dubs based on their work wouldn't do the same, so they could charge royalties for them to use their "original" soundtrack. So if 4Kids knew the non-English dubs didn't usually change things in the same way that their English dubs did, and supposedly "internationalized" those English dubs around that fact, then why also insert otherwise untranslatable puns and references into their scripts?
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You do know the dub under TPCI not only removes the music but now doesn’t even keep any of it? They’re far beyond anything 4Kids did.
 
Yami-no-Game said:
Being "rude" wasn't my intention, I was just pointing out that that specific content doesn't necessarily appeal to that many people (including me), and my latter comment about the song translation was me venting my frustration that the translation of the song actually seemed more confusing to me than the original lyrics due to how very forced some of the translated Pokemon puns seemed to be and how they don't work as well in English.



Not to bash the 4Kids staffers, but I feel like they either exaggerated or their comments were taken out of context, because I see the 4Kids dub and all their edits and dialogue changes that have American food and pop culture references, and I just can't see how those things would've appealed to the international audience overall.



Maybe, but it's the job of translators to translate dialogue which includes localizing puns, it's what they're paid to do. Why exactly should we feel guilty or even bothered at all by the fact that a French anime translator for instance probably had to put in extra work to translate some of 4Kids' English puns into their native language when the 4Kids translators also had to do that when translating the original Japanese puns into English? That's the crux of the issue for me.



So we're putting the blame on 4Kids for having the audacity to make English language-friendly puns and wordplay for their dub while the Japanese version can get away scot-free with their gratuitous untranslatable puns? And people don't see that as being a bit unfair?



To be clear, I mean generic in the sense that the English songs on the dub's soundtrack might appeal to the general public as a whole as opposed to that Kaze song for example, which only a niche group of the audience who like Japanese vocal songs would've appreciated. I mean, it's hard to imagine that the majority of American viewers would've loved that Kaze song (which is like a slow enka-type ballad) more than they'd appreciate a simple catchy English pop song. Even if the lyrics had been translated into English, I highly doubt that the song would've garnered interest from the general public, especially not from young kids.
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You’re preaching to the choir. Unfortunately, people will bash 4Kids because “they called it a donut!!l” but ignore the utter trash heap dub that exists today that does all the deadly sins of 4Kids but on steroids or double standards like Japanese puns (which they still do today and have) or will spend copious amounts of energy on a dubbing error but ignore gross animation errors from the animators that happen all the time.

I just don’t know why some want to continue to harp on 20 year old episodes that had a line or two rewritten or a joke that wasn’t there. Or accuse the people who worked on the dub as racists. There are bigger fish to fry and they’re actually ongoing today.
 
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Charmander4 said:
You do know the dub under TPCI not only removes the music but now doesn’t even keep any of it? They’re far beyond anything 4Kids did.
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They keep a little of it (15% right now on average, pathetic for the final Series in English on that note), but TPCi has kept less than 4Kids did at their WORST in the main Series for the last decade now: I agree the modern dub has all the same flaws as the older one, minus its strengths though, by this point in time (when they took over, it was a bit different from today, even the visual censorship that people chastised 4Kids for IS back in the TPCi era too nowadays: How Pokémon Sun & Moon Is Censored In English & How Pokémon Journeys Is Censored Outside Japan just some examples, there's also the XYZ dub edit of Ash being crucified and the recent MPM edit where Ash's head is no longer allowed to be frozen- even in Season 8 of the 4Kids dub, they actually let his hat and head be frozen in 2006 in the Kids WB Era believe it or not but TPCi wouldn't keep it in Season 25 on Netflix in 2023-- so there's that).
 
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darksteel6 said:
Dogasu is currently trying to confirm if the Region 4 2011 DVD
"Pokemon Kanto and Orange Islands Collection" has Mandarin Island Miss Match uncut, does anyone on here know? I found this one review of it on Youtube though there's no mention if it has the episode uncut or not, so i'm going to ask this guy on his Patreon page if it has that one scene intact.

https://twitter.com/DogasusBackpack/status/1673954550397681664

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0YkArEzdv4
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Christ. Imagine if Brock met Lorelei. He’d have a stroke right then and there.
 
Looks like Dogasu compiled a list of countries on Twitter where the scene was shown uncut. Japan was put as "kind of," which I assume is the scene zoomed in. Besides Australia (and New Zealand which is where Suede hails from), the scene was shown uncut in South Korea, Latin America (at least for the initial airing), and many European countries.

I am curious about Portugal. Did the cut scene appear on Portuguese television or DVD completely unedited? The release from Salvat called "Pokémon Temporada 2 - Volume 32?" Pokémon Temporada 2 - Volume 32 Media Information
 
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JyuRaposa said:
Looks like Dogasu compiled a list of countries on Twitter where the scene was shown uncut. Japan was put as "kind of," which I assume is the scene zoomed in. Besides Australia (and New Zealand which is where Suede hails from), the scene was shown uncut in South Korea, Latin America (at least for the initial airing), and many European countries.

I am curious about Portugal. Did the cut scene appear on Portuguese television or DVD completely unedited?
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Very interesting, we also got confirmation that the 2011 DVD did in fact have that scene intact: https://twitter.com/SnorlaxMonster/status/1674259306177531904
looks like that was the last time the uncut dub version was officially released.
Also it looks like the original Japanese theatrical release version of Mewtwo Strikes Back got a DVD release in 2019: https://twitter.com/Luigithemetal64/status/1674246403957346306
I only just found out last year that the version we got in the U.S. was radically different visually then the original JP version, crazy. Does anyone know if there are any rips of the VHS or Laserdisc releases of the original theatrical version out there?
 
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I've explained why I focus so much more on the 4Kids stuff than I do the TPCi stuff multiples times before, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to reiterate myself a bit.

The main reason, really, is because more fans have access to the Japanese versions of the episodes TPCi's doing now than the ones 4Kids did 20+ years ago. If any change is made to the current TPCi dub -- rewrites, music changes, censorship, etc. -- we generally all know about it within 24 hours or it airing. When that ice edit in "Bearing Down Easy!" took place, for example, we had high quality screenshots of both the Japanese version and the international version up on Bulbapedia within hours! Fans are keeping track of TPCi's changes, in real time, making a Dogasu's Backpack type comparison for those same episodes a bit redundant.

With the old 4Kids episodes, however,

  • Fansubbed versions of lot of the 4Kids era episodes simply do not exist
  • Even if they do, actually finding them is kind of a pain
  • The changes in those episodes aren't documented nearly as well as the changes made to the TPCi era episodes
  • The 4Kids dub had a LOT of rewrites (the idea that it's just jelly donuts and a few puns here and there is just flat-out wrong) and so there's more content to put in an episode comparison than there is in, say, those "The Arceus Chronicles" comparisons I did

Now don't get me wrong, I think both dubs are absolutely dreadful. Just really, really sub-par. But, I prioritize the 4Kids comparisons not because I prefer one dub over the other, but because the 4Kids episodes "need it" more. That's it.
 
Thank you for all you do Dogasu. It is interesting to hear that the Prima EP "kept" the Japanese music but inserted music into all the silent scenes. I never truly realized how much of a mess the 4kids dub episodes can be on a given day.
 
Dogasu said:
I've explained why I focus so much more on the 4Kids stuff than I do the TPCi stuff multiples times before, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to reiterate myself a bit.

The main reason, really, is because more fans have access to the Japanese versions of the episodes TPCi's doing now than the ones 4Kids did 20+ years ago. If any change is made to the current TPCi dub -- rewrites, music changes, censorship, etc. -- we generally all know about it within 24 hours or it airing. When that ice edit in "Bearing Down Easy!" took place, for example, we had high quality screenshots of both the Japanese version and the international version up on Bulbapedia within hours! Fans are keeping track of TPCi's changes, in real time, making a Dogasu's Backpack type comparison for those same episodes a bit redundant.

With the old 4Kids episodes, however,

  • Fansubbed versions of lot of the 4Kids era episodes simply do not exist
  • Even if they do, actually finding them is kind of a pain
  • The changes in those episodes aren't documented nearly as well as the changes made to the TPCi era episodes
  • The 4Kids dub had a LOT of rewrites (the idea that it's just jelly donuts and a few puns here and there is just flat-out wrong) and so there's more content to put in an episode comparison than there is in, say, those "The Arceus Chronicles" comparisons I did

Now don't get me wrong, I think both dubs are absolutely dreadful. Just really, really sub-par. But, I prioritize the 4Kids comparisons not because I prefer one dub over the other, but because the 4Kids episodes "need it" more. That's it.
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That's honestly fair enough. And I do quite enjoy reading your comparisons, even if I have disagreed on some things in the past.
 
Dogasu said:
I've explained why I focus so much more on the 4Kids stuff than I do the TPCi stuff multiples times before, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to reiterate myself a bit.

The main reason, really, is because more fans have access to the Japanese versions of the episodes TPCi's doing now than the ones 4Kids did 20+ years ago. If any change is made to the current TPCi dub -- rewrites, music changes, censorship, etc. -- we generally all know about it within 24 hours or it airing. When that ice edit in "Bearing Down Easy!" took place, for example, we had high quality screenshots of both the Japanese version and the international version up on Bulbapedia within hours! Fans are keeping track of TPCi's changes, in real time, making a Dogasu's Backpack type comparison for those same episodes a bit redundant.

With the old 4Kids episodes, however,

  • Fansubbed versions of lot of the 4Kids era episodes simply do not exist
  • Even if they do, actually finding them is kind of a pain
  • The changes in those episodes aren't documented nearly as well as the changes made to the TPCi era episodes
  • The 4Kids dub had a LOT of rewrites (the idea that it's just jelly donuts and a few puns here and there is just flat-out wrong) and so there's more content to put in an episode comparison than there is in, say, those "The Arceus Chronicles" comparisons I did

Now don't get me wrong, I think both dubs are absolutely dreadful. Just really, really sub-par. But, I prioritize the 4Kids comparisons not because I prefer one dub over the other, but because the 4Kids episodes "need it" more. That's it.
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Makes sense, still think you're dead wrong about the 4Kids dub being "Dreadful" though, you want dreadful, try Odex's dub of One Piece, then you'll know true pain LOL
 
darksteel6 said:
Makes sense, still think you're dead wrong about the 4Kids dub being "Dreadful" though, you want dreadful, try Odex's dub of One Piece, then you'll know true pain LOL
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Or try the Odex dub of Yu-Gi-Oh, absolutely painful voice wise too, even if actually more faithful than the 4Kids dub and keeping all the OST.

m.youtube.com

The Yugioh Singapore Dub is a mess

Another random video, but its about Yugioh and Yugioh Gx a bitThe Yugioh Singapore Dub is a beautiful messGo down the rabbit hole here!Deviant Art.com Articl...
m.youtube.com m.youtube.com


I don’t see the two Pokémon dubs as on par with each other personally, at all, I think one had notably better voice acting, longer intros (at least they weren’t 30 seconds on average before TPCi took over), a more bearable Team Rocket Trio script wise on the whole as well as much less stupid dialogue (despite sometimes being more altered in meaning) even at its worst overall, and kept more of the OST overall but that’s his prerogative and he’s entitled to his opinion I suppose (Was it still flawed? You bet. Was it this grating? I don’t believe so). I more or less see things they way TheCartoonGamer8000 does on the topic (except Brock). Dogasu’s logic is fair though, I suppose, at least he’s consistent in hating the entire dub (I think it’s gotten worse than ever before in the last few years since 2014, the one good thing Ed Goldfarb has done is make me feel some appreciation for even the very worst things before his Era).

m.youtube.com

[OLD] Pokémon: A Tale Of Two Dubs - TheCartoonGamer

UPDATE: This video is old and outdated and serves as little more than a fan who expressed his thoughts on Pokemon's English dub at the time. For more updated...
m.youtube.com m.youtube.com

They still do rewrites of the script in the current dub, too, for some reason people think that stopped under TPCi but that tradition is very much alive from 4Kids to this day too (to clarify Arceus Chronicles isn’t the main Series dub, and it canned about as much of the OST as Chronicles did as well- really sad TPCi took all the wrong pages from 4Kids, not the arguably good ones).
 
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darksteel6 said:
It was fine at first, but in recent years it's gone way downhill.
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I would argue it was pretty bad for its first two years (there are some pros and cons to that period vs later 4Kids, though- the VA work, intros, and dialogue took a huge hit there, but the nonsensical visual edits stopped mostly & I guess there was a bit more silence despite overall keeping the same amount of OST in the early TPCi era of the later TAJ dub), I guess bearable through mid BW (with the exceptions of DP Brock & TRio to me), but the last few years speak for themselves and the general downhill trend began around late BW (it was before Goldfarb, that Loeffler in his final year set the general standard for what was to come musically especially, but it still wasn’t as grating then imo).

Top Ten WORST English Dubs of Anime: part 05 (This isn't a good rant on DP's dub, but sums up Season 10 at least)

The general disdain stems basically from them making pseudo-promises when they took over as PUSA that they’d stop the stuff people didn’t like from 4Kids (censorship- returned in XYZ; music edits- stayed the same as under 4Kids' last few years in the Anime by the end in both BF & early DP, then just 40% on average for the rest (S13 at 38%, a decrease from 12's), and after S1 of BW (which kept a LOT) they kept only as much as 4Kids in mid Johto in S15 of BW, as much as in AGS8 in S16 in late BW, and XY+ keep less than 4Kids at their worst there; Americanization- returned in XY, Korrina kanji erasure, etc.) but TPCi ended up bringing all that back in time, and just unceremoniously dumping the original English staff from the first 8 years out of the blue in a disrespectful way laying them all off (while the VAs don’t deserve the personal attacks/hate for it at all as they just took jobs offered to them at the time, the company does deserve that criticism per se & the VA performances don't at all sound on par w/what they replaced to this day IMO, at least for the first few years all of the hate was earned for that controversial decision per se).

JyuRaposa said:
Looks like Dogasu compiled a list of countries on Twitter where the scene was shown uncut. Japan was put as "kind of," which I assume is the scene zoomed in. Besides Australia (and New Zealand which is where Suede hails from), the scene was shown uncut in South Korea, Latin America (at least for the initial airing), and many European countries.

I am curious about Portugal. Did the cut scene appear on Portuguese television or DVD completely unedited? The release from Salvat called "Pokémon Temporada 2 - Volume 32?" Pokémon Temporada 2 - Volume 32 Media Information
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I'm curious about the UK since that's an English speaking nation like the US, Canada, Australia, etc., either RetroPokeFan or HylianBelmont may have some knowledge on this?

This was very likely a Kids' WB mandated edit, interesting, I wonder if some of the cleavage ones later 4Kids did might've fallen under the same umbrella (Greg Abbey aka 4Kids Tristan/Honda from Yu-Gi-Oh, Scott/Enishida and Tabitha from 4Kids Era AG said when a friend of mine asked him at a con, BS&P did have some restrictions on what 4Kids could air & not on local TV on Saturday Mornings in the USA).

A true tragedy an episode 4Kids bothered to let Lorelei literally having her you-know-what hanging out unaltered and keeping 100% of the OST for (dub music filling in silent moments doesn't bug me, even if it does some) had such a bad script apparently: I wish they had their good writer on all the episodes (that one had genuine talent, IMO) because I'd take that one 100% over JCC's S9-25 writing but alas, the bad one apparently got in the booth for this one.
 
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