Are Scarlet and Violet the worst Pokemon games?

[godiego]

can't say i've ever understood the fixation with postgame content considering for pokemon it seems less about is there content and more about is there the content i want.

 

[Snowy]

can't say i've ever understood the fixation with postgame content considering for pokemon it seems less about is there content and more about is there the content i want.

It's less clear in this game, admittedly, but the post game thing is mostly about something to do when you've beaten the final boss (Usually the champion). A bit of follow up story, for example. Or even just something like the battle tower or similar systems.

 

[Bolt Strike]

It's less clear in this game, admittedly, but the post game thing is mostly about something to do when you've beaten the final boss (Usually the champion). A bit of follow up story, for example. Or even just something like the battle tower or similar systems.

I don't think he's asking what post game content is, he's asking why it's important to them. And I do think it's a fair question because open world changes that dynamic and I've played few games period besides Pokemon where post game content really matters or is expected (off the top of my head some of the Mario games do but that's about it). If you're designing a game where you can go wherever you want and do whatever you want, do we really need to be saving a large amount of content to be unlocked post credits? Or is the problem more that there needs to be more sidequests and side modes from the start? Do we really need to be saving content such as battle facilities or other previously restricted content such as the Friend Safari to post game or should this just be made available from the start? This is something we should be re-evaluating now that Pokemon has gone open world before we start crying for more post game content.

 

[Yuunagi]

can't say i've ever understood the fixation with postgame content considering for pokemon it seems less about is there content and more about is there the content i want.

All discussions about postgame content are founded upon the premise of people having previously enjoyed postgame content and wanting something that they enjoy in the same way. Postgame content can often be significantly more important to some players than even the base game content. As an example - it’s not really hard to find players who spent maybe a couple dozen hours in Pokémon Emerald before the credits rolled, but then spent hundreds of hours challenging the Battle Frontier.

As another, let’s look at HeartGold and SoulSilver, traditionally considered to have the best postgame experiences in the whole series. After you beat Lance and the credits roll, you can do the following in HGSS:

• You can play through the entirety of Kanto, challenging an additional 8 Gyms and exploring a whole second region with plot threads continuing onward from Johto
• You can encounter the opposing version’s mascot in a unique dungeon and at a high level
• You can challenge the five different facilities of the Gen 4 Battle Frontier, spending perhaps hundreds of hours and trying dozens of teams (not counting the Battle Factory which is always randomized)
• You can rematch most regular trainers once daily with improved, tougher teams
• You can rematch your rival individually twice per week
• You can rematch all sixteen Gym Leaders with improved teams an unlimited number of times
• You can rematch the Elite Four and Champion with improved teams and unlimited number of times
• You can challenge Red, the highest-leveled trainer in the series, once every time you beat the Elite Four
• You can find Legendary Pokémon from Kanto in unique dungeons, as well as both static and roaming legendaries from Hoenn

That’s a lot of stuff and most of it is repeatable at the player’s leisure. It offers hours upon hours of this repeatable content. Very little of it has a direct analogue in Scarlet and Violet. I feel like it’s a legitimate criticism of Scarlet and Violet that you don’t have many options for repeatable content. And without battle facilities of any kind, what little repeatable battling that you can do doesn’t really serve to build toward any end goal if you don’t want to do online PvP battling. That’s part of why that specific kind of postgame content is so important to some players: it’s the #1 way to have a challenging, rewarding single player experience that pushes beyond the typical story content difficulty level.

Personally, I feel that postgame content like battle facilities gives me a way to enjoy the series I love in a more engaged way than the sometimes passive experience of a main story that has to be easy enough that very young fans can also experience it. I love the Battle Tower and other major battle facilities because, with the exception of Sword and Shield’s Battle Tower, all notions of ease and hand-holding are dropped. It’s just you against the toughest trainers the game can throw at you. And when that’s not there, it’s hard for me to enjoy coming back to a game for longer than the relatively short main story.

I don't think he's asking what post game content is, he's asking why it's important to them. And I do think it's a fair question because open world changes that dynamic and I've played few games period besides Pokemon where post game content really matters or is expected (off the top of my head some of the Mario games do but that's about it). If you're designing a game where you can go wherever you want and do whatever you want, do we really need to be saving a large amount of content to be unlocked post credits? Or is the problem more that there needs to be more sidequests and side modes from the start? Do we really need to be saving content such as battle facilities or other previously restricted content such as the Friend Safari to post game or should this just be made available from the start? This is something we should be re-evaluating now that Pokemon has gone open world before we start crying for more post game content.

I think you have a good point that we no longer need to expect content to be restricted to a post-credits unlock. I think perhaps we need to think of it more in terms of repeatable content and challenging game modes that are otherwise not part of the main story. If it opened up right from the start instead of being locked rather arbitrarily, then maybe that’s fine too. In some ways I get why battle facilities, for example, are left to be unlocked only when a trainer has demonstrated the capacity to handle the challenge, but that’s not exactly an unbreakable lore reason - it could just as easily be tossed aside.

 

[Bolt Strike]

All discussions about postgame content are founded upon the premise of people having previously enjoyed postgame content and wanting something that they enjoy in the same way. Postgame content can often be significantly more important to some players than even the base game content. As an example - it’s not really hard to find players who spent maybe a couple dozen hours in Pokémon Emerald before the credits rolled, but then spent hundreds of hours challenging the Battle Frontier.

As another, let’s look at HeartGold and SoulSilver, traditionally considered to have the best postgame experiences in the whole series. After you beat Lance and the credits roll, you can do the following in HGSS:

• You can play through the entirety of Kanto, challenging an additional 8 Gyms and exploring a whole second region with plot threads continuing onward from Johto
• You can encounter the opposing version’s mascot in a unique dungeon and at a high level
• You can challenge the five different facilities of the Gen 4 Battle Frontier, spending perhaps hundreds of hours and trying dozens of teams (not counting the Battle Factory which is always randomized)
• You can rematch most regular trainers once daily with improved, tougher teams
• You can rematch your rival individually twice per week
• You can rematch all sixteen Gym Leaders with improved teams an unlimited number of times
• You can rematch the Elite Four and Champion with improved teams and unlimited number of times
• You can challenge Red, the highest-leveled trainer in the series, once every time you beat the Elite Four
• You can find Legendary Pokémon from Kanto in unique dungeons, as well as both static and roaming legendaries from Hoenn

That’s a lot of stuff and most of it is repeatable at the player’s leisure. It offers hours upon hours of this repeatable content. Very little of it has a direct analogue in Scarlet and Violet. I feel like it’s a legitimate criticism of Scarlet and Violet that you don’t have many options for repeatable content. And without battle facilities of any kind, what little repeatable battling that you can do doesn’t really serve to build toward any end goal if you don’t want to do online PvP battling. That’s part of why that specific kind of postgame content is so important to some players: it’s the #1 way to have a challenging, rewarding single player experience that pushes beyond the typical story content difficulty level.

Personally, I feel that postgame content like battle facilities gives me a way to enjoy the series I love in a more engaged way than the sometimes passive experience of a main story that has to be easy enough that very young fans can also experience it. I love the Battle Tower and other major battle facilities because, with the exception of Sword and Shield’s Battle Tower, all notions of ease and hand-holding are dropped. It’s just you against the toughest trainers the game can throw at you. And when that’s not there, it’s hard for me to enjoy coming back to a game for longer than the relatively short main story.

HGSS' extra content (and really a lot of GBA and DS era games) goes beyond just battling though, there's other things you can do in terms of repeatable content, and not all of it is necessarily things that unlocked in the post game. In HGSS you had the Pokeathlon with mini games you could compete in and raise Pokemon for. You could catch Pokemon in the Safari Zone (and decorate the Safari Zone to customize which Pokemon appear). You could enter the Bug Catching Contest to catch Pokemon and earn rewards. You could solve puzzles in the Ruins of Alph and find Unown. Other games had side modes such as Contests, Secret Bases, Sinnoh Underground, Pokestar Studios, and Join Avenue. That kind of content hasn't really been prevalent lately and that might be more along the lines of the kind of repeatable content a game like SV needs more of.

 

[Cainhxrst]

Elden Ring has the best open world of any game in the past decade or so IMO and that game and there isn't really any content that's available once the credits roll that isn't available to the player during their playthrough of the main story. It works because the world is so packed with things to do you aren't really left longing for anything once you finish the game.

I'd like to see pokemon move towards this. If there were optional dungeons, distinct explorable locations filled with secrets, and world events to stumble upon, I wouldn't care about the lack of a battle tower or something (though it would be nice to have) but its weird with pokemon since the franchise has a history with post-game content. DLC probably fills the void stuff like the sevii-islands left in the sense that its a new location you can travel to after the game with new things to find, but as long as stuff like legendary hunts after the pokemon league remain in the game, I'm fine with just shiny hunting + raising mons for competitive and dex completion as my primary activities. I don't think we'll ever see battle facilities return in a meaningful capacity beyond the battle tower or variations of that.

 

[Flannery]

I'm just going to apologize in advance. When I write long responses I come across as condescending and rude and I genuinely don't know why or what I'm saying to do so. It never reads that way to me and it is never my intention, but it's not uncommon for people to take issue with me because they think I'm trying to be rude when I'm really not. Please do not see this response as me trying to be mean. I'm just giving my feedback where I can.

Scarlet and Violet are by no means bad, let alone the worst games. The graphics, animations, sound designs, and story are the best they have ever been. And I'm including absolute bangers like XD: Gale of Darkness in the mix. The games are an actual challenge. There's more than one way to experience the world. And, in my opinion the most important thing, you can get lost in the world (in the good way). I was able to get $60 of value from this game by the time I beat in total my 2nd Titan, 3rd Gym, and 1st Star Boss. Not to mention that, from my experience, it feels like the bugs and lagginess are overblown. Like the 2nd controller speed boost glitch. That's awesome! Why are people upset about that one? I can't wait to see those Speedruns! The drop in frame rate you get for background NPCs is annoying, sure, but it also doesn't really affect anything and I only ever noticed it when I was trying to notice it. Otherwise, I could easily ignore it. I just feel like there's an overstatement of harm here.
And sure, Pokemon ScaVi do have some bugs and lagginess... I'm not denying that it's true. And yet depite this... I think they came out comparatively fine. I hate to say it, but most AAA games nowadays have this issue thanks to the trend of people buying Early Access games like TemTem long before they were ready for sale. This means the studios now don't just have to compete with each other making fleshed out games, but also with Indie devs pushing out games that are barely even started. Add in a dash of corporate greed, and this gets you a recipe of developers doing their best while the committee in charge of them decides how much quality they're willing to disregard in exchange for getting the game out faster. If you don't want this issue to continue, then the solution is to prove to companies that you're fine with waiting and paying the increased cost that the extra time would require. After all, these $60 games are worth more than that, but companies have to do what they can for themselves and their shareholders. Unfortunately, we don't live in a socialist society which would allow game devs can make strictly the games they want to make at the quality they want to strive for. Capitalism sucks, yo.

 

[Snowy]

he's asking why it's important to them.

I feel like I answered that question Something to do when the game is over. Basically, to get additional value out of your... Well, mine is something like AU$129 because I bought the dual pack, but yeah... something to get extra value out of the game sounds like a good reason why it's important

 

[charlycicero]

This game has been enjoyable for me so far, and aside of some noticeable fps and performance issues in some areas, and some funny glitches, my playthrough went without a hitch. I already completed the game and about to complete the Dex for my coveted shiny hunting. Still, I agree Game Freak could do way better. The low res textures are indeed inexcusable, but I now ignore this because I enjoy the gameplay. And the story is among the best in the franchise, imho.

 

[colours]

as someone who once feels (and still does, to some extent) strongly about having post-game content for pokemon, i've long begrudgingly accepted the path that pokemon is walking towards which is essentially that what you see is what you get (for the most part), and very little is going to be post-game except more difficult battles, if anything at all.

i think my main gripe is that i want something to do after i've beaten the elite four + champion. one of my biggest complaints about b/w was that the battle subway didn't really do it for me - perhaps it really is a me thing - but after i've beaten the main story, there really wasn't any reason for me to return to b/w except for maybe dream world? and i dont think that in itself is post-game, but it's the lack of content that keeps me wanting to play the games that led to me just... not playing it much, anymore. i realise that my expectations might be pretty high, but ideally i like for my completion of the main story to be the beginning and not the end - i want opportunities and more adventures to open up, have there be more exciting things to do, things like that, yknow? i'm unsure if this is a lot to ask, but it sure keeps me from feeling bored.

that said, i think swsh more or less nailed it when they introduced raids, which is probably what sv is going towards. something for players to sink their teeth into and keep them interested for a long period of time by constantly introducing new raid 'mons and events, and i actually liked that! it isn't necessarily post-game, but it's something to do aside from the main story which is what i care about above all. as long as the main story isn't one of the few things out there to do, then i'm satisfied.

maybe, in sv's case, the "post-game" stuff might be in the dlc, who knows? isle of armour and crown tundra in swsh's case were certainly interesting to play through and i wouldn't mind something similar for sv.

 

[godiego]

that's not really what i was talking about..but anyways.. consider this: a game, Pokemon or not, has a total play time of 60 hours. now let's look at a few sort of splits: 1) the game itself is about ten hours but maybe it's like Dead Cells where you can play it over and over again but nothing really post-game; 2) the game itself is about twenty hours and there's forty of post-credits game; and 3) the game is about fifty hours, but there's only ten hours of post-game. are any of these splits particularly bad? no, they all amount to $1 an hour basically. but i do get the sense that the pokemon community would give high praises to #2 because it has great post-game (despite a short main game) while lambasting #3 for not having much of a post-game (despite having a longer main game).

i also think Bolt is right with their point about what is the point about having post-game, post-credits content when the general optional can be fleshed out instead rather than locking it behind credits. like the SwSh DLC, for instance. i mean, yeah, technically it isn't post-game content, but it still is content nonetheless (and arguably best enjoyed after the credits anyways) regardless of which side of the pre- or post-credits 'equation' you want to have it on. i probably had more to say but forgot.

 

[charlycicero]

This game has plenty to do after beating it, depending on what you like. It has harder Tera Raids, so you can get level 75 or higher Pokémon with alternative Tera Types. You can complete the Dex to get the shiny charm, and you can do 5-6 Star Tera Raids to farm Herba Mysticas. Both combined drastically increase shiny odds, and the game also has max outbreaks similar to PLA. You can catch and Train competitive Pokémon if that's your thing. And a new one: you can explore a relative big map, which also unlocks certain other Pokémon, and only one character talks about them and only if you attend all her classes. Plus, yes, I am positive there will be DLC in 2023. A part of Kalos, maybe?

 

[Bluemew1512]

And at least it's an improvement over X and Y, which had only one area, the Looker sidequest, a couple of legendaries, and a bootleg Battle Tower.

EDIT: Also better than Gen 1, whose postgame literally amounted to one new area with a Legendary in it.

 

[AngryBinacle]

While still flawed, the freedom of the open world as well as the story is very entertaining.

The lack of something substantial to do after the credits is a very big let-down, though. I remember HgSs times (and I even consider Kanto to be largely a part of the main narrative), and even SwSh had better repeatable content (despite me HATING raid-battles there).

The loss of options is a bad thing and truly unacceptable.

 

[GhostLucario]

I haven't found any bugs or crashes. Only minor graphical glitches. The games are ugly as hell, the textures are awful, the pop in is bad, the fall in framerate is tragic and there's no level scaling, but they're fun, the story is ok and the characters are good.

 

[Beer&Nyquil]

bugs are terrible. but this is the first pokemon game with a good story, so

 

[RileyXY1]

Not at all, from what I've heard. The story is great and it is a monumental leap forward for the franchise.

 

[Snowy]

this is the first pokemon game with a good story,

Keeping in mind that "good" is subjective, but personally, I would not go that far. It pales in comparison to Sword and Shield, and definitely in comparison to Black and White, Black 2 and White 2.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

Keeping in mind that "good" is subjective, but personally, I would not go that far. It pales in comparison to Sword and Shield, and definitely in comparison to Black and White, Black 2 and White 2.

Well, if you ask me, Black and White (and their sequels,) is about where the series peaked in the quality of their games (in terms of the story, at least.)

 

[Snowy]

Well, if you ask me, Black and White (and their sequels,) is about where the series peaked in the quality of their games.

I know people that would definitely agree with you there. I'm not sure if I'd call Gen 5, or Gen 8 my favourite generation.... but I definitely feel like the franchise has gone back down hill.