Best Wishes - what happened?

[GWrando]

I'm a bit wigi on the whole Best Wishes issue. I like some of the choices they made... and detested others.

I loved the idea of Ash catching more than five or six pokemon and was hoping for him to have two full teams of six pokemon by the time he made it to the league all the while rotating his pokemon constantly to help them get past their own individual problems, which would have been awesome... but they pretty much just had him using Pikachu, the starters, and Scraggy with a rotating sixth member being chosen among Boldore, Krookodile, Palpitoad, Leavanny, and Unfeazant.

I liked the idea of Team Rocket being more threatening and evolving into more mature villains... but the execution was poor.

I loved the exposure of rivals and the fact that some even traveled with him a bit... but it became overdone.

Basically Best Wishes is a mixed bag... of Bernie Botts Beans.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

But there are more forums for pokemon. Serebii for example. There are more angry english speaking nerds than us on Bulbagarden. And that must be more than 0,000001 %.

Basically:

The fandom = Grain of sand.
The target audience and casual watchers = Bowling Ball

But do you think that the target audience is happy with BW?

 

[Zexy]

I still believe that the Earthquake caused the wreck. Team Plasma did not appear, Team Rocket had to get the 4 2-parters as primary antagonists instead of Plasma's sidekicks.
Episodes were killed and to make space for all of this, they made up 2 Don Tournaments so that the Gym gaps didn't feel rushed.

By the very end, since the series was messed up already, they turned to promotion and marketing (I don't think the anime team had problems with this, since everything was almost crippled by then). A N arc after all this time was a nice idea, but they didn't have enough ideas, so it got rushed and a filler region was made out of it (which conveniently lets them promote Gen VI).

That's that. All seasons but Hoenn had major flaws, let's hope that Kalos will go better.
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For starters, they should've had the rules changed to where Ash needed 10 badges to enter the League.

Just no, Kalos may not get sequels and the Gyms there might become 8 again. Status Quo is God.

Speaking of the World Tournament, they should've given it an arc to kill time while brining back old characters and Pokémon aplenty. Would've beaten the heck out of the slog that was Junior Cup and even that sorry excuse for a League.

It would hinder Generation 6 promotion.

Kanto was messed up by the Seizure Incident, but still had decent writing and good moments. Johto was messed up by the GS Herring, but was able to get its groove back in grand fashion (IMHO). Isshu? Things just got out of hand and the producers eventually decided to half ass it and move on...

Sinnoh and its year-long Gym Gap?
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The sequels happened. Gamefreak has admitted that they only decided to make B2W2 a continuation of BW's story rather than a rehash about three or four months before the games launched. Given that episodes start production about six months before being aired and are in planning for who knows how long before that, the anime producers would've been well underway with the first arc of the BW anime, the one that leads up to Plasma's debut. They probably had just enough time to tweak the ending so Plasma lost and went away for a while so they could rewrite their later plots to account for the sequels. Hence the large block of filler in what is otherwise a fairly fast-paced series.

I think that they learned about it around the time the first Don Tournament happened. They have released some fillers, thinking of what should happen now that Plasma is gone. And POP! there is also a time limit before we end the Gym Quest and move on to B2W2 promotion )
In every case, BW suffered from these two things.

 

[Necrozma]

By the very end, since the series was messed up already, they turned to promotion and marketing

They turned to promotion and marketing? No, this anime has always been about promoting the games and merchandise. Remember the shameless HG/SS promotion/anime arc during DP?

 

[Jukain]

I was wondering when this issue would arise. I cannot provide good data, but not that long ago, my own nephews saw BW for the first time in their lives. NOT INTERESTED. AT ALL. I consider this to be unfair data since they were raised on the culture of app gaming. (their favorite is Angry Birds) For reference, they are 7 and 5, so they would be within the best chance of being interested at all. The other cartoons I know they like? Phineas and Ferb is one that I am sure of. When they are here, I only observe they pay attention to Johnny Quest and Ben Ten. I do not know their little friends well enough to know if any of them even know what Pokemon is.

 

[Duque]

Sigh... BW have things that many likes, some others dislikes and everybody agrees it divides opinions of what was good and what not. I'm definetly not a huge BW fan, and I don't pretend to disrepect the author's thread, but, I'm freaking tired of some threads that end with discussion about BW be the worst arc, the best arc, the I-don't-give-a-crap arc, even now that we are from, what, three months from the XY arc.

My final opinion (at risk of earning a warning myself): Some persons like BW, some doesn't (myself included) and some just understand that is and always will be a game promoting anime with marketing focus on little children and go on. Best solution? Learn how to draw, turn yourself into a mangaka or something that nature, create your own fully faithful and loyal version of what should be THE Pokemon series with Ash & co.'s ending and be happy in your personal canon (In some way, that's my own goal to some other series). Period.

 

[Sweet Veil]

But do you think that the target audience is happy with BW?

Yeah, given five-year-olds probably could care less about things like character development, pacing, etc. They're just watching the show to see cute monsters fight each other.

 

[Zexy]

By the very end, since the series was messed up already, they turned to promotion and marketing

They turned to promotion and marketing? No, this anime has always been about promoting the games and merchandise. Remember the shameless HG/SS promotion/anime arc during DP?

That was 6 episodes. Not 24 of them, with a new opening and season title. After all, if they had timed DP a bit better, there would have been a Johto Battle Frontier...

 

[Sweet Veil]

That was 6 episodes. Not 24 of them, with a new opening and season title. After all, if they had timed DP a bit better, there would have been a Johto Battle Frontier...

This show has always been about promoting and marketing, nothing turned into a marketing show. Is this one of those "It's okay for DP but not BW" replies?



Just to be clear, I liked BW(Except for the League arc. and a few gym battles) a lot up until Da! (Very hit-and-miss and TR being incompetent.)

 

[Ambipom666]

While Black and White 2 definitely altered plans, I find the idea that the seismic disaster didn't really change much of anything and that Team Plasma was always meant to have their own arc more and more plausible.

Episode N has so little elements from Black and White 2 (I believe there's only Colress, who could have has easily been worked into the dual third versions as was originally planned [just like Charon], and Team Plasma's new outfits, which are purely aesthetic) that I think it could easily been the original plan for Team Plasma all along.

I also wouldn't find it surprising if the writers always wanted to do an arc like Da!. They could have easily showcased more locations in Eastern Unova but it seems like they just didn't want to.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

But do you think that the target audience is happy with BW?

Yeah, given five-year-olds probably could care less about things like character development, pacing, etc. They're just watching the show to see cute monsters fight each other.

Just as I did when I was younger.

 

[Nymphia]

Fans are the five-year-old merchandise buying youngster, they aren't pandering to fans. You overestimate the size of Bulbagarden if you think the writers even are aware of this forum's existence let alone would even would "pander" to a minority of angry, English-speaking nerds on a Pokemon forum. Bulbagarden is very very small with an anime section of around 70 members with only like 23 or so really vocal members regularly, it likely makes up less than 0.000001% of the actual Pokemon fanbase. The writers aren't catering to anyone on this forum, I can assure you that.

I'm not talking about us on this forum. I'm talking about in general. Kinda hard to miss.

They pointlessly bought back Dawn out of desperation.

True, in the first moment that cameos are allowed they decided to bring back Dawn, one of the most popular character of Diamond and Pearl. @Druddigon loves top references 5-year old children which means that for you are the reply. When she appeared, apart of the poster (who screams main cast) every official website updated for Season 2 had Dawn included on them with the main characters (it's considered one more of the griup, literally9 I checked the four websites and in all four she was. An older fan could know that's a cameo because Contests were not promoted for being in the games; a child of 5 (6,7 or even 8

They bought back Cynthia (sure she's in the games, but it still feels a little suspicious).

Cynthia is the "Anime Champion". Cynthia is the champion of the4 champion, specially in the anime. Given that is in the same pack fo promotions, she appears on 9 episodes (to Alder 5, 4 of them shared) and his heavy role, it's a clear attempt to appease DP fans.

They had Giovanni step up to bat (I know that was intended from the TPvTR 2 parter, but still).

This isn't desesperation for anything. It's marketing serious TR which means doing missions for Giovanni.

They bought back the Eevee Family and went out of their way to have Lucario appear.

There's always doing marketing but it's not casuality that the two most popular pokemon of the BW2 dex are in the league with "heavy" merchandise.

It almost felt like N and Team Plasma were bought in to appease fans.

N is the most popular BW game character. This because something.

They randomly bought back Charizard.

Apart of the merchandise that are selling, Charizard was an attemopt to please older fans.

We've had two episodes with Kanto flashbacks & shout outs, and the upcoming Lapras episode will likely have an Orange Island flashback, I shouldn't wonder.

They suddenly care about pnostalgia in a series that they almost never do that. The plot of the Butterfree episode is made to remind it with Nye Nye Butterfree.

The Decolora Archipelago is infested with Pokémon from previous generations.

Normal; we aren't in Unova anymore.

Oak's been popped for a while (even reviving that Muk running gag while they're at it) and got an episode.

Normal, Oak hasn't never dissappeared fopr the show, specially in Japan.

We're getting a Claire episode.

Bri8nging back Older Gym leader serves as a promotion of nostalgia to older fans. Itr'0s Clair because is a Dragon-type Gym leader reloated to Iris.

The TRio is back to being the Bungle Brigade.

Because the audience didn't like being serious. And the audience who liked it, had to digest that the Plasma episodes weren't aired.

We may or may not have appearances by Delia and Tracey near the end.

Of there's only those, there isn't pandering too much. The problem is that I have the feeling that there's won't be the only ones.

There's even the DA ending, with its many cameos by characters past.

This ending was a true pandering. Hide the ending until the last minute, show the ending with all the nostalgia and after that, try to promote the upcoming movie.

If that isn't pandering, it sure feels like it!

The franchise is dropping in audience in general. Because that, the anime franchise is relying into the most imopoirtant audience, the Japanese audience, who is the audience who brings money.

To take a basic idea (I don'0t know (I hope I knew)) where Pokemon is doing financially, I think that works like that:
-In Japan, they are gaining money from the franchise in general. Not like other years, but the franchise is successful and I doubt that they are truly losing money.
-In America, I have more doubts but I think that the franchise is winning money.
-In Europe, it's clearly losing money. And in my country is literally obvious that they're not winning anything (What merchandise exist?)
-I think that the franchise is losing money right now in these months because the costs of XY production, In theory, it's transitory.

But do you think that the target audience is happy with BW?

Yeah, given five-year-olds probably could care less about things like character development, pacing, etc. They're just watching the show to see cute monsters fight each other.

Children are not idiots, remember. Achildren of 8,9,10 years could care about writing, for example.

That was 6 episodes. Not 24 of them, with a new opening and season title. After all, if they had timed DP a bit better, there would have been a Johto Battle Frontier...

This show has always been about promoting and marketing, nothing turned into a marketing show. Is this one of those "It's okay for DP but not BW" replies?



Just to be clear, I liked BW(Except for the League arc. and a few gym battles) a lot up until Da! (Very hit-and-miss and TR being incompetent.)

The showe is for promoting, but tnow they are too much focuses in oroimoting for Japan.

 

[Sweet Veil]

True, in the first moment that cameos are allowed they decided to bring back Dawn, one of the most popular character of Diamond and Pearl. @Druddigon loves top references 5-year old children which means that for you are the reply. When she appeared, apart of the poster (who screams main cast) every official website updated for Season 2 had Dawn included on them with the main characters (it's considered one more of the griup, literally9 I checked the four websites and in all four she was. An older fan could know that's a cameo because Contests were not promoted for being in the games; a child of 5 (6,7 or even 8

I can't understand that part.

it's a clear attempt to appease DP fans.

Wrong. It's what you perceive, not what it actually is. I'm tired of saying it over and over the writers. don't. give. a. crap about the people on this forum.

They bought back the Eevee Family and went out of their way to have Lucario appear.

Riolu and Eevee are main Pokemon BW2, what of it? Kanto starters appeared in AG for the same reason with FRLG.

N is the most popular BW game character. This because something.

He appeared because of the Plasma arc., if it was any other season he would have. The job of the writers is to adapt game stuff into the anime, it's natural and normal and not to "appease" fans. Again, what would the writers give a shit about "catering" to such a small minority of people that:

A.Don't watch the show on TV.(or most legally for that matter)...
B.Aren't in the target audience and..
C.Ratings don't account for.

You seriously overestimate the size of Bulbagarden if you think that.

Charizard was an attemopt to please older fans.

Charizard was an attempt to sell merchandise, just like all Pokemon are. If it was for "older fans" you would think the ratings for the Charizard episode would have been off the charts, but they were the exact same as any old BW episodes. Because "older fans" aren't the one's the writers were looking for.

They suddenly care about pnostalgia in a series that they almost never do that. The plot of the Butterfree episode is made to remind it with Nye Nye Butterfree.

Nostalgia, what? DP brought back older Pokemon too. Da! was advertised as a series of tears and laughter on the poster, the idea behind that episode was to give some nice emotion not to "pander" to older fans.

Bri8nging back Older Gym leader serves as a promotion of nostalgia to older fans. Itr'0s Clair because is a Dragon-type Gym leader reloated to Iris.

Iris, that is all. Female Gym Leader and female aspiring Dragon Master, story purposes.

Because the audience didn't like being serious. And the audience who liked it, had to digest that the Plasma episodes weren't aired.

I've absolutely seen nothing that suggest the audience had a problem with TR being serious, only thing I've seen is that TR's seiyuu seemed to have a problem with it.

This ending was a true pandering. Hide the ending until the last minute, show the ending with all the nostalgia and after that, try to promote the upcoming movie.

Older character and older Pokemon have appeared in openings/endings since forever, the writers have been doing this since OS. It's absolutely normal.

The franchise is dropping in audience in general. Because that, the anime franchise is relying into the most imopoirtant audience, the Japanese audience, who is the audience who brings money.

Pokemon Anime is dropping in ratings slowly over the years, but ratings for every show are dropping simply because people aren't watching TV like they used to. Naruto and One Piece used to have much higher ratings but they've dropped over the years as well, this is with every show in Japan and even in America.

To take a basic idea (I don'0t know (I hope I knew)) where Pokemon is doing financially, I think that works like that:
-In Japan, they are gaining money from the franchise in general. Not like other years, but the franchise is successful and I doubt that they are truly losing money.
-In America, I have more doubts but I think that the franchise is winning money.
-In Europe, it's clearly losing money. And in my country is literally obvious that they're not winning anything (What merchandise exist?)
-I think that the franchise is losing money right now in these months because the costs of XY production, In theory, it's transitory.

That makes no sense the anime department and overall gaming department aren't that connected to each other, Nintendo and Gamefreaks take care of the games and the anime is taken care of by Shopro and TV TOKYO.

Children are not idiots, remember. Achildren of 8,9,10 years could care about writing, for example.

Come on now, be real. Casual watchers and young children, the ones that really matter for Pokemon in the long run don't give a care about those things. I've met absolutely not one child that could care about the writing of a cartoon.

The showe is for promoting, but tnow they are too much focuses in oroimoting for Japan.

It's always been focused on promoting.

 

[Zexy]

Fans are the five-year-old merchandise buying youngster, they aren't pandering to fans. You overestimate the size of Bulbagarden if you think the writers even are aware of this forum's existence let alone would even would "pander" to a minority of angry, English-speaking nerds on a Pokemon forum. Bulbagarden is very very small with an anime section of around 70 members with only like 23 or so really vocal members regularly, it likely makes up less than 0.000001% of the actual Pokemon fanbase. The writers aren't catering to anyone on this forum, I can assure you that.

There are other Pokemon forums as well ) And there are people who don't post but still like watching anime/don't like what is going on with Pokemon now.
Problem is, we still watch it, so we can't change something we are used to.

 

[blowsave]

What happened? Good ideas, bad executions.

Massive, annoying fandom complaints didn't help its reputation either. Best Wishes! is by no means that bad, it has quite a few great episodes, some amusing characters and can be pretty enjoyable if given a chance. Sadly, it's the threads like these that make it seem a lot worse than it actually is.

What is this, a thread #13898 on what has Best Wishes done wrong? Seriously.

Not everything needs to be defended. Best Wishes has been a spectacular failure in pretty much every way.

Not sure what happened, but I don't think it had anything at all to do with the earthquake.

 

[Sweet Veil]

There are other Pokemon forums as well ) And there are people who don't post but still like watching anime/don't like what is going on with Pokemon now.

Still doesn't matter to the writers.

Not everything needs to be defended. Best Wishes has been a spectacular failure in pretty much every way.

Not sure what happened, but I don't think it had anything at all to do with the earthquake.

What he's saying and trying to convey is we don't need 20,000 reductive threads for angry fans to cry over Best Wishes! like it's the worst cancer. There are about 26 variations of this same exact thread spread throughout Bulbagarden Anime Department, I think we all know the overall, popular opinion of Best Wishes! by now, the threads are always the same. You're living under a rock otherwise.

BTW, there's absolutely little to zero defense for Best Wishes!.

 

[Master Cyrus]

The writers have stopped caring so much that they just told a fan to stfu when he asked about the new mewtwo.

 

[Sweet Veil]

The writers have stopped caring so much that they just told a fan to stfu when he asked about the new mewtwo.

First of all, it was a movie director. Second of all, Adamant(A person who can actually understand Japanese) claims it was an out-of-context scene that was spun out of proportion by fans. Third of all I don't understand why people on this forum are so bent on vilifying the writers as people, but okay.

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

While Black and White 2 definitely altered plans, I find the idea that the seismic disaster didn't really change much of anything and that Team Plasma was always meant to have their own arc more and more plausible.

Episode N has so little elements from Black and White 2 (I believe there's only Colress, who could have has easily been worked into the dual third versions as was originally planned [just like Charon], and Team Plasma's new outfits, which are purely aesthetic) that I think it could easily been the original plan for Team Plasma all along.

I also wouldn't find it surprising if the writers always wanted to do an arc like Da!. They could have easily showcased more locations in Eastern Unova but it seems like they just didn't want to.

Plasma being openly evil and N wandering around completely separate from them wasn't from B2W2? I mean, yeah, that could have been written based on the first pair if the writers felt like taking a whole buncha liberties that month, but still.

... Actually, if I remember correctly, in one of the previews for the two-parter a grunt speaks of their "hero" (presumably N) as though he's a part of their organization, so N's role was quite possibly changed at some point.

 

[Winterdaze]

What happened? They changed things, some of it for the better, some not. Some things went according to plan, others got derailed by no fault of the writers, and some of their plans just weren't so hot from the get go.

In the end...it's your typical Pokemon anime saga. Just for some reason the negatives resonated really strongly with this particular community this time.