Best Wishes - what happened?

[Ambipom666]

Post ended up being just a little long, so I put it in a spoiler.

Spoiler

I think you're giving the writers a little too much credit. While having Roxie mushed in probably did lead to Ash getting his badge a lot earlier than intended, I still think the thing afterwards would be the same. We have no idea what the writers' original plan was but the core elements of Season 2 are basically free of BW2 stuff.

The World Tournament Junior Cup? Sure, it's based on something from B2W2, but it could be a normal Don George tournament and not much would be different: Trip's battle with Alder could easily have been completely unrelated. I think Dawn came to Unova just to compete in the WTJC (which I find a little odd in of itself) so the writers would need a new reason for Dawn to show up that isn't just "Visit Ash". What that would be, I don't know, but I think Dawn would return eventually, because that's just how the writers do things.

I don't get what's so important about showcasing "Neo Team Plasma." Their costumes are purely aesthetic. Ya know what, just talking about Episode N makes my head hurt, since the writers took elements of Plasma from both games and just threw them together haphazardly. I don't disagree that Episode N was bad, but I do think an arc like it was always the plan. The gist of the plot basically involves elements from BW1. And even though Plasma wasn't openly evil in those games, and N was part of Plasma, I wouldn't really put it past the writers to have Plasma be openly evil and have N leave Plasma just because it's part of their plot. I mean, the writers could easily have N leave Plasma at the beginning of the arc or in a flashback or something. Team Plasma from the anime is so generically evil, it's not like BW1 Team Plasma couldn't have fit in just as well.

Colress is a big name from BW2, but it's not like his presence is necessary. Seriously, anime!Colress and game!Colress do completely differently things and have different sentiments, and the only thing pretty much relating them is the vague desire to bring out greater power in Pokémon. I do think Colress would have been in third versions had we gotten them, but if his character never existed, it's not exactly hard to believe that the writers would derp out some generic evil scientist to spearhead the Pokémon control plot, kind of like Dr. Zager for Team Rocket.

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Now some people believe Team Plasma was planned to make regular recurring appearances after their initial planned debut. Now keep in mind, if Team Plasma appeared, Team Rocket would more than likely still be major villains. How would Team Rocket and Team Plasma co-exist?

Would they have separate goals? Would they come into conflict often? Would both teams appear separately?
What would Team Plasma be doing? Trying to find the Light/Dark Stone to revive Reshiram/Zekrom? Something different? Trying to stop Team Rocket?
What would Team Rocket be doing? Trying to do something totally different? Trying to stop Plasma?

Here's how I see it: If Team Plasma is doing anything other then ultimately trying to entrench their superiority with the people of Unova and/or summon a dragon, they're not Team Plasma and should not appear.

If Team Plasma actually does the same thing as their in-game selves, while Team Rocket does something totally different, the writers would have to balance both villainous teams. Here's the flaw. This is just me, but I don't really see the writers even wanting to do this. Both teams would have to be given ample time for their evil operations for whatever their end goals are.

TL;DR - the writers didn't want to use both villainous teams at the same time because giving them both good spotlight would be a difficult task.

Team Aqua and Magma technically had separate goals, but they were pretty much designed to come into conflict, not to mention both teams wanted to use an artifact of great power to control a super-ancient Pokémon. Team Plasma and Rocket both want to control Unova, but that's about it. Other than that, I wouldn't really say they have much in common. If the writers didn't want the two teams to have different objectives, and had both teams have the same objective OR had one team running around primarily to stop the others (which I think is a little unlikely) the writers would probably tire of having them always come into conflict anyway. Or maybe not. That's just what I think.

TL;DR 2: Team Plasma I believe was always supposed to only appear once and then appear much later in an arc devoted just to them. I think the writers wanted to do something different and have Team Rocket be the main villains, and as a result Team Plasma just took a backseat.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Must hAVE CHANGED SOME OF THE WRITERS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

 

[Almonds]

Post ended up being just a little long, so I put it in a spoiler.

Spoiler

I think you're giving the writers a little too much credit. While having Roxie mushed in probably did lead to Ash getting his badge a lot earlier than intended, I still think the thing afterwards would be the same. We have no idea what the writers' original plan was but the core elements of Season 2 are basically free of BW2 stuff.

The World Tournament Junior Cup? Sure, it's based on something from B2W2, but it could be a normal Don George tournament and not much would be different: Trip's battle with Alder could easily have been completely unrelated. I think Dawn came to Unova just to compete in the WTJC (which I find a little odd in of itself) so the writers would need a new reason for Dawn to show up that isn't just "Visit Ash". What that would be, I don't know, but I think Dawn would return eventually, because that's just how the writers do things.

I don't get what's so important about showcasing "Neo Team Plasma." Their costumes are purely aesthetic. Ya know what, just talking about Episode N makes my head hurt, since the writers took elements of Plasma from both games and just threw them together haphazardly. I don't disagree that Episode N was bad, but I do think an arc like it was always the plan. The gist of the plot basically involves elements from BW1. And even though Plasma wasn't openly evil in those games, and N was part of Plasma, I wouldn't really put it past the writers to have Plasma be openly evil and have N leave Plasma just because it's part of their plot. I mean, the writers could easily have N leave Plasma at the beginning of the arc or in a flashback or something. Team Plasma from the anime is so generically evil, it's not like BW1 Team Plasma couldn't have fit in just as well.

Colress is a big name from BW2, but it's not like his presence is necessary. Seriously, anime!Colress and game!Colress do completely differently things and have different sentiments, and the only thing pretty much relating them is the vague desire to bring out greater power in Pokémon. I do think Colress would have been in third versions had we gotten them, but if his character never existed, it's not exactly hard to believe that the writers would derp out some generic evil scientist to spearhead the Pokémon control plot, kind of like Dr. Zager for Team Rocket.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now some people believe Team Plasma was planned to make regular recurring appearances after their initial planned debut. Now keep in mind, if Team Plasma appeared, Team Rocket would more than likely still be major villains. How would Team Rocket and Team Plasma co-exist?

Would they have separate goals? Would they come into conflict often? Would both teams appear separately?
What would Team Plasma be doing? Trying to find the Light/Dark Stone to revive Reshiram/Zekrom? Something different? Trying to stop Team Rocket?
What would Team Rocket be doing? Trying to do something totally different? Trying to stop Plasma?

Here's how I see it: If Team Plasma is doing anything other then ultimately trying to entrench their superiority with the people of Unova and/or summon a dragon, they're not Team Plasma and should not appear.

If Team Plasma actually does the same thing as their in-game selves, while Team Rocket does something totally different, the writers would have to balance both villainous teams. Here's the flaw. This is just me, but I don't really see the writers even wanting to do this. Both teams would have to be given ample time for their evil operations for whatever their end goals are.

TL;DR - the writers didn't want to use both villainous teams at the same time because giving them both good spotlight would be a difficult task.

Team Aqua and Magma technically had separate goals, but they were pretty much designed to come into conflict, not to mention both teams wanted to use an artifact of great power to control a super-ancient Pokémon. Team Plasma and Rocket both want to control Unova, but that's about it. Other than that, I wouldn't really say they have much in common. If the writers didn't want the two teams to have different objectives, and had both teams have the same objective OR had one team running around primarily to stop the others (which I think is a little unlikely) the writers would probably tire of having them always come into conflict anyway. Or maybe not. That's just what I think.

TL;DR 2: Team Plasma I believe was always supposed to only appear once and then appear much later in an arc devoted just to them. I think the writers wanted to do something different and have Team Rocket be the main villains, and as a result Team Plasma just took a backseat.

That's just impossible. Generation 5 was all about N and Team Plasma. It doesn't make sense for Team Plasma to take the back seat. They were the main villains in the games, and if we take them out, we have nothing in Unova.

 

[Pokémon Master Ash]

Good ideas, good creativity, but lackluster effort, and bad writing characterize the BW Saga of the anime.

It's really not THAT bad a saga that it deserves this kind of flak. It's certainly not the best, though, don't get me wrong.

Ash's regression from DP? Fair enough. I agree with you guys there: terrible move. However, I think BW brought back a lot of his personality that was sorely missing in the DP series, and if nothing else, that's something I will give it.

Team Rocket's personality changes...twice? Yeah, I hate those, though. However, serious TRio was admittedly a bit refreshing for a while as opposed to the same old, same old garbage TRio has been doing over and over again. Most of us like comedic TRio, myself included, but after 600+ episodes, those antics begin to grow old very fast. The problem with serious TRio was that their personalities were sucked dry and thus they became somewhat bland and boring. If not for that, I'm sure most of us would've been happier with them.

Cilan? Dear god, thank you. Poor Brock was being milked dry in the DP series. I can't thank BW enough for saving whatever face Brock still had left and not dragging him along like dead weight like DP did.

One thing I dislike about Cilan when compared to Brock is that Cilan has no real drive to accomplish whatever goal it is he seeks to accomplish in becoming a Connoisseur. I really regret the writers did not develop Cilan/Dento more. Brock seemed more driven and passionate in whatever goal he sought to accomplish, even in DP, so for that he will always be better than Cilan in that way, IMO.

Iris? A character who I initially hated but grew to like more and more, IMHO. Actually BW only improved her character as it went along, and you barely hear her (if at all) call Ash a little kid or kodomone anymore, showing she and Ash have developed a mutual respect for each other. I like that she had a fiery personality akin to Misty, and that's something that's been lacking for a while, IMO.

Overall:

BWS1- Pretty solid and a good effort. Only things I truly despise are Ash's 4th and 8th gym battles, as well as TRio's flat personalities. 8.5/10
BWS2- Trainwreck. Only good parts were Meloetta and, to an extent, Dawn's return. The rest is just terrible, especially the disastrous League. 5.5/10
BWS2: N- Surprisingly very good. A more dark tone returns from AG/DP in this saga, the writing is sharp, and it makes for a great season. 9/10
BWS2: Da!- Poor. Some fillers are great (Ash and Butterfree; Jirachi; Alexa and Helioptile) while others are just boring and dull. 6/10

Final Rating for me for BW: 7.25/10

 

[Neo Blaze]

While I certainly understand the points people bring up why they think Best Wishes is so bad (I understand them, I don't agree or am not bothered by most of these points), I certainly think this series doesn't deserve as much hate as it has received up until now. I've really enjoyed Best Wishes so far (even filler filled DA) safe for a few arcs or episodes, such as the league. At times this series really had episodes that gave me something to look forward to.

I think liking or hating Best Wishes has a lot to do with its predecessor series, DP. Most people who really liked DP seem to really hate BW, as BW has done a lot different compared to DP. But I, and perhaps a few others who also disliked DP (I haven't seen many), like most of the things BW has brought, mainly because it did so many things different compared to DP (there are also people who enjoyed both series of course).

For me BW has been a fresh breeze, with quite a lot of memorable episodes, and that's why, even though it has had its flaws, I give it an 8/10

 

[dracoflare]

BW has done a lot different compared to DP

I see this argument a lot of times. Nobody hates BW because it did things differently from DP, but because it destroyed the protagonist we love and adore to nothing. Surely, after the amount of amazing development he got in DP, any Ash fan will find this series depressing.

One would expect a linear progression, not a regression. That's the main reason behind every BW hater, because face it most long time fans on the fandom watch the show for Ash. What's the point when he's being turned into his OS self?

So yes, "People hate BW because it did things differently from DP" is a bad line of defense used by people who don't care much for Ash and hence find BW better than DP. Because other than Ash, BW is in fact good.

 

[Neo Blaze]

BW has done a lot different compared to DP

I see this argument a lot of times. Nobody hates BW because it did things differently from DP, but because it destroyed the protagonist we love and adore to nothing. Surely, after the amount of amazing development he got in DP, any Ash fan will find this series depressing.

One would expect a linear progression, not a regression. That's the main reason behind every BW hater, because face it most long time fans on the fandom watch the show for Ash. What's the point when he's being turned into his OS self?

So yes, "People hate BW because it did things differently from DP" is a bad line of defense used by people who don't care much for Ash and hence find BW better than DP. Because other than Ash, BW is in fact good.

I'm an Ash fan, do I find BW depressing? No. Actually, most people found Ash to be at his best in DP, thus they are indeed depressed by the changes Ash went through in BW. Seriously, stop acting as if I don't care for Ash and like what you stated is everyone's opinion. I really like Ash, ever since my childhood (I'm a viewer ever since OS too, you know), and I've always liked to see where new paths would take Ash.

I won't deny Ash regressed in BW compared to DP, but that doesn't mean I, or some other people are bothered by this. I've never been bothered by it, or at least to a minimal level, and actually liked Ash better in BW at times than in DP. Judge me for this, I don't care.

"One would expect a linear progression, not a regression". Like I said, Ash's regression is one example of what BW did different compared to DP and is also why most people dislike BW, hence the point I made in my earlier post.

 

[Pokémon Master Ash]

BW has done a lot different compared to DP

I see this argument a lot of times. Nobody hates BW because it did things differently from DP, but because it destroyed the protagonist we love and adore to nothing. Surely, after the amount of amazing development he got in DP, any Ash fan will find this series depressing.

One would expect a linear progression, not a regression. That's the main reason behind every BW hater, because face it most long time fans on the fandom watch the show for Ash. What's the point when he's being turned into his OS self?

So yes, "People hate BW because it did things differently from DP" is a bad line of defense used by people who don't care much for Ash and hence find BW better than DP. Because other than Ash, BW is in fact good.

I don't know about you, but DP Ash is definitely not my favorite Ash. True, he was definitely in his smartest and most developed form, but at the same time, he's certainly far from my favorite. OS Ash is the one I knew: a kid who just had big dreams and worked hard, learning from his mistakes. He still managed to keep his personality, while taking himself seriously when he needed to. More importantly, he was emotionally driven and battled more with his heart than his head. To me, AG Ash was still good as well, because he felt like a more intelligent form of Ash, but without losing his childish behavior and antics so much. Not the same, but still great.

Ash isn't even the worst part of BW, IMO. I can understand your sentiments about Ash being regressed, though. I definitely do not like that they regressed him from DP.

I feel DP is when I lost the Ash I knew, personally. Just didn't seem like the same goofy, driven, and yet kind-hearted kid I knew anymore. I feel he was just too serious, and bland, at times. XD.

 

[Ambipom666]

That's just impossible. Generation 5 was all about N and Team Plasma. It doesn't make sense for Team Plasma to take the back seat. They were the main villains in the games, and if we take them out, we have nothing in Unova.

I think it's very possible. The writers decided to re-invent Team Rocket and make them big villains despite there being no basis for that in the games. Even before the seismic disaster, we know that the writers planned for Team Rocket to have Meowth join the protags culminating in the Nimbasa City two-parter (based on how long it takes to make an episode.) Not conclusive, but again, I just find the fact that Team Rocket had a 2nd big villain episode before Team Plasma was planned to re-appear pretty telling. I think it is safe to say Team Rocket was always planned to be major villains throughout the Unova arc.

Maybe Team Plasma was supposed to make appearances after their debut. I just don't think the writers planned to have both villainous teams share the spotlight, but that's just me. In terms of Team Plasma getting their own arc, some people like it and find it better than them making recurring appearances (I don't, I'm just saying). Do you write off the whole pre-League saga just because Team Plasma didn't really appear?

The writers really wanted to do things differently this generation. I'm trying to wonder how Team Plasma's actions in the 2-parter would have even contributed to their goal but I guess there's no way to know.

 

[valzz]

What happened? Good ideas, bad executions.

Massive, annoying fandom complaints didn't help its reputation either. Best Wishes! is by no means that bad, it has quite a few great episodes, some amusing characters and can be pretty enjoyable if given a chance. Sadly, it's the threads like these that make it seem a lot worse than it actually is.

What is this, a thread #13898 on what has Best Wishes done wrong? Seriously.

You took the words right out of my mouth

 

[Hidden Mew]

That's just impossible. Generation 5 was all about N and Team Plasma. It doesn't make sense for Team Plasma to take the back seat. They were the main villains in the games, and if we take them out, we have nothing in Unova.

I don't think it's too outside of the realm of possibilities. They clearly didn't have a problem with using Team Rocket in place of Team Plasma for that Dreamyard confrontation, so I could see them having Team Plasma take a back seat to Team Rocket, especially when they seemed more interested in trying to make Team Rocket look more serious in Unova than doing anything with Team Plasma. Even if the two-parter had aired, I don't think that I could see them appearing throughout the series. I'm leading towards the idea that they did have an arc in mind for Team Plasma and the two-parter could have set it up, but I wouldn't be surprised if an arc for Team Plasma was always in the cards for them.

I think liking or hating Best Wishes has a lot to do with its predecessor series, DP. Most people who really liked DP seem to really hate BW, as BW has done a lot different compared to DP. But I, and perhaps a few others who also disliked DP (I haven't seen many), like most of the things BW has brought, mainly because it did so many things different compared to DP (there are also people who enjoyed both series of course).

While I do really like DP, that isn't why I don't like BW. I wouldn't even say that I hate it, but rather disappointed and frustrated with it. Most of the new ideas it brings to the table are good, but they suffer from terrible execution and poor characterization. Plus, the battles have been pretty lackluster for the most part.

 

[Neo Blaze]

I think liking or hating Best Wishes has a lot to do with its predecessor series, DP. Most people who really liked DP seem to really hate BW, as BW has done a lot different compared to DP. But I, and perhaps a few others who also disliked DP (I haven't seen many), like most of the things BW has brought, mainly because it did so many things different compared to DP (there are also people who enjoyed both series of course).

While I do really like DP, that isn't why I don't like BW. I wouldn't even say that I hate it, but rather disappointed and frustrated with it. Most of the new ideas it brings to the table are good, but they suffer from terrible execution and poor characterization. Plus, the battles have been pretty lackluster for the most part.

I think some people are bothered by the changes. From what I've seen around here, people dislike Ash's regression, Team Rocket's change in personality, Ash's different method of having a Pokémon team (having more than six), etc., all things BW did different from DP. There are of course different reasons for disliking BW, and you did good in naming some of these reasons. Yes, people also dislike it because of the sloppy writing, or the battles BW has brought. I didn't say all people who like DP dislike BW because it did things different. I guess it's just my look on things.

 

[Almonds]

@Ambipom666; @Hidden Mew;


They went as far as to dedicate an entire arc to N and Team Plasma, something they had never done before. It looks to me they didn't want anything else to outshine Team Plasma, because N was too important to get overshadowed by literally anything. If they didn't care much for Team Plasma, why did they even bother creating Episode N? Like you said, if Team Rocket could always stay the main villains, then there was no reason for N and Team Plasma to appear at all.

 

[Hidden Mew]

They went as far as to dedicate an entire arc to N and Team Plasma, something they had never done before. It looks to me they didn't want anything else to outshine Team Plasma, because N was too important to get overshadowed by literally anything. If they didn't care much for Team Plasma, why did they even bother creating Episode N? Like you said, if Team Rocket could always stay the main villains, then there was no reason for N and Team Plasma to appear at all.

I wouldn't say that they didn't care about Team Plasma, but that they just didn't have any big plans for them and that they were more interested in making Team Rocket the main villain team of the series. I wouldn't be surprised if they were waiting for the third version games to do something more with them and the two parter was just going to be their introduction, but since those games were changed at the last minute, they altered their plans for that arc because of that change. Plus, they knew that N is a popular character, so that they could use him to give the series a bit more hype after the League. I think that the sequels being a last minute decision affected Team Plasma a lot more than the earthquake did, but given how Team Rocket was the main focus early on in the series, even taking Team Plasma's role in one of their early encounters from B/W and Team Plasma weren't featured in any of the episodes in the next few months after the two-parter was going to air, I wouldn't be surprised if they were always just going to have an arc. It might have been a bit different from what they originally planned, but I still think that whatever changes they dealt with had more with the last minute sequels than anything else.

Even with Episode N, I don't think that Team Plasma overshadowed anything in the anime. While I enjoyed the arc, Team Plasma themselves were pretty generically evil, aside from Corless and N of course, so I don't think that they shined that much in an arc that heavily featured them.

 

[dracoflare]

BW has done a lot different compared to DP

I see this argument a lot of times. Nobody hates BW because it did things differently from DP, but because it destroyed the protagonist we love and adore to nothing. Surely, after the amount of amazing development he got in DP, any Ash fan will find this series depressing.

One would expect a linear progression, not a regression. That's the main reason behind every BW hater, because face it most long time fans on the fandom watch the show for Ash. What's the point when he's being turned into his OS self?

So yes, "People hate BW because it did things differently from DP" is a bad line of defense used by people who don't care much for Ash and hence find BW better than DP. Because other than Ash, BW is in fact good.

I'm an Ash fan, do I find BW depressing? No. Actually, most people found Ash to be at his best in DP, thus they are indeed depressed by the changes Ash went through in BW. Seriously, stop acting as if I don't care for Ash and like what you stated is everyone's opinion. I really like Ash, ever since my childhood (I'm a viewer ever since OS too, you know), and I've always liked to see where new paths would take Ash.

I won't deny Ash regressed in BW compared to DP, but that doesn't mean I, or some other people are bothered by this. I've never been bothered by it, or at least to a minimal level, and actually liked Ash better in BW at times than in DP. Judge me for this, I don't care.

"One would expect a linear progression, not a regression". Like I said, Ash's regression is one example of what BW did different compared to DP and is also why most people dislike BW, hence the point I made in my earlier post.

I think as someone who regularly posts on Sppf and lurks a lot on Bmgf (that's two big forums?), I think I can vouch for a lot of people agreeing with me. But I won't make such claims and I will speak for myself henceforth.

Something is wrong with you, if you are willing to see the Character development from previous saga getting destroyed and make Ash turn into a newbie trainer again. I am not sure what kind of fan will love to see all the growth he received in the previous saga vanish and start from the scratch. I have no clue at all.

So, tell me what is BW's formula? To me, BW's formula is "A fast paced saga like the OS, which doesn't have boring fillers like DP. Entertaining characters who actually have some decent interaction outside talking battle strategies. The main character catching more than just six Pokemon and rotating them.The lack of JJM appearing every episode and make me roll my eyes everytime they blast off.." These are the things DP lacked, and BW gave us. This is what I call BW's formula.

So, do I hate BW for any of these? No, not at all. Just take a look at my previous post and see if I said anything contradictory.

You on the other hand say "Ash Regressing is what BW did different." You are supposed to be supporting BW and instead trying to make it sound much worse. No writer in the world will regress his character and call it being different. That's not being different, that's.......oh well, I am not going to say it.

 

[Neo Blaze]

Something is wrong with you, if you are willing to see the Character development from previous saga getting destroyed and make Ash turn into a newbie trainer again. I am not sure what kind of fan will love to see all the growth he received in the previous saga vanish and start from the scratch. I have no clue at all.

Who are you to say this? Seriously, do you know me? Just stop. Of course it is kind of depressing to see the growth of a character you love vanishing, I understand why you and others do find this depressing. I myself just not that bothered by it. Perhaps I have hope things will get better in the future, or I am used to the fact that Ash is and never will be the best Trainer there ever was. Sure, I hope he will reach his goal one day, but that doesn't have to be now. Because I think this, am I less of a Pokémon anime fan or Ash fan? No, I'm a huge fan of the Pokémon anime and I like Ash. I've just come to accept some of the stupidities.

Also, I liked BW Ash because he was different to DP Ash. In my first post I call BW a fresh breeze, this is because some of the changes it made and because DP Ash felt too serious for me sometimes, I didn't really recognize Ash anymore at times.

So, tell me what is BW's formula? To me, BW's formula is "A fast paced saga like the OS, which doesn't have boring fillers like DP. Entertaining characters who actually have some decent interaction outside talking battle strategies. The main character catching more than just six Pokemon and rotating them.The lack of JJM appearing every episode and make me roll my eyes everytime they blast off.." These are the things DP lacked, and BW gave us. This is what I call BW's formula.

Well, that's mainly how I think of BW's formula too. At least we can agree on something.

So, do I hate BW for any of these? No, not at all. Just take a look at my previous post and see if I said anything contradictory.

That's okay, but you might wanna read my first post on this thread. Maybe I was not clear enough, but from what I've seen here I think some or most people dislike BW because of the changes it made compared to DP. Others dislike parts of BW for other reasons, I understand that.

You on the other hand say "Ash Regressing is what BW did different." You are supposed to be supporting BW and instead trying to make it sound much worse. No writer in the world will regress his character and call it being different. That's not being different, that's.......oh well, I am not going to say it.

Yes, Ash regressing is just one thing that BW did different as compared to DP. DP had Ash improve as a Trainer, made him look somewhat more mature, while BW had him start all over again, looking more like a rookie starting on his first journey. Quite the opposite, if you ask me. But what, am I trying to make BW sound much worse? Why? Because I underline Ash regressed in BW? As much as I like BW, I can't deny Ash is more like a rookie trainer than an advanced trainer in BW. But as I said I am just not bothered by this really. What am I supposed to say then?

I guess we just have different ways of seeing things. I see some of the things BW has done compared to DP as changes and also think this is why some people who liked DP dislike BW, you see this different. Sure, you can talk big and call over your friends and acquaintances of this and Serebii's forums to back up your points, but that won't make your point any more true or my point any less true. It's just a matter of perception, I think.

 

[dracoflare]

Who are you to say this? Seriously, do you know me? Just stop. Of course it is kind of depressing to see the growth of a character you love vanishing, I understand why you and others do find this depressing. I myself just not that bothered by it. Perhaps I have hope things will get better in the future, or I am used to the fact that Ash is and never will be the best Trainer there ever was. Sure, I hope he will reach his goal one day, but that doesn't have to be now. Because I think this, am I less of a Pokémon anime fan or Ash fan? No, I'm a huge fan of the Pokémon anime and I like Ash. I've just come to accept some of the stupidities.

No, I don't know you. I value you by your posts. Sure, if you are a friend of mine, and we know each other through VM convos, I might understand you or I might try understanding your point.......but as of now, I am only judging you based on your post. No, it's not wrong to be an Ash fan liking BW. As much as I don't like the way he was portrayed in the anime, he still had some qualities that I like even in BW. I liked his interactions with N. I liked a few battles like Ash versus Stephan. That being said, I actually think Heck, I even liked the Elesa battle. I have moved on ages ago, but I still don't like when people say "people don't like BW because it's different from DP." It's basically saying "people want to see the DP formula again and again and hate BW because they didn't like the change." No matter how many justifications you give, that quote is downright offensive to me, because I am pretty sure people hated BW because Ash was acting like a newbie, not because BW used a different formula. Why alienate people and make them look as if they can't move on from something they liked? Because that's what I have seen over and over again in pro-BW arguments. In fact, the quote wasn't just for you, but to everyone who put out that argument. If you have any other argument, please come forward, just don't say people didn't move on.It's as offensive as you felt offended by my post.

Also, I liked BW Ash because he was different to DP Ash. In my first post I call BW a fresh breeze, this is because some of the changes it made and because DP Ash felt too serious for me sometimes, I didn't really recognize Ash anymore at times.

Ash was perfectly incharacter in DP. His character progression was gradual from Johto to AG to DP. He was too serious because he was facing people like Paul who are his utter opposites. Has Ash ever been ever pissed off by anyone like Paul did? Gary always riled up Ash, but he still didn't contradict with Ash's base beliefs. Believing your Pokemon and treating them like friends is something Ash learnt through OS to AG. In DP, he was put to test by Paul for the first time.

But I agree, the comical value was lost. But comical value doesn't have ANYTHING to do with competency. Ash could still be competent and be made fun of. Ash could still be comedic, and be this innocent boy who has pure beliefs and love towards Pokemon. This was shown in Episode N, and I liked them showing Ash like that. But it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with competency. Honestly, one must just accept that he was screwed badly in BW. Anyone who watches it for Ash and his league performance will automatically feel bitter.

So, do I hate BW for any of these? No, not at all. Just take a look at my previous post and see if I said anything contradictory.

That's okay, but you might wanna read my first post on this thread. Maybe I was not clear enough, but from what I've seen here I think some or most people dislike BW because of the changes it made compared to DP. Others dislike parts of BW for other reasons, I understand that.

You on the other hand say "Ash Regressing is what BW did different." You are supposed to be supporting BW and instead trying to make it sound much worse. No writer in the world will regress his character and call it being different. That's not being different, that's.......oh well, I am not going to say it.

Yes, Ash regressing is just one thing that BW did different as compared to DP. DP had Ash improve as a Trainer, made him look somewhat more mature, while BW had him start all over again, looking more like a rookie starting on his first journey. Quite the opposite, if you ask me. But what, am I trying to make BW sound much worse? Why? Because I underline Ash regressed in BW? As much as I like BW, I can't deny Ash is more like a rookie trainer than an advanced trainer in BW. But as I said I am just not bothered by this really. What am I supposed to say then?
.

You basically said "why people hate BW" and tell that "you are not bothered really", then what right do you have to say "people hate BW because it made things different from DP", because there is a huge difference between doing things differently and destroying character development.

How is showing Ash like a rookie trainer "Okay" to you when he's NOT a rookie trainer? I don't get it at all. It's not JUST DP. Did you forget AG, Johto and Kanto? Did you forget all those journeys he had? Do you really like them to amount those journeys to nothing? That's absurd. Really, really absurd.

Finally, I don't want exchanging these paragraphs forever. I have no problem accepting BW and BW Ash after three years when the saga is coming to an end. But just this quote "People hate BW because it has done things differently from DP" is highly annoying and intolerable because making an experienced trainer inexperienced isn't doing things different but doing things irrationally.

What BW did different was

1) Regular tournaments : Excellent idea
2) Returning his childishness: Acceptable
3) Fast paced saga: very good idea considering how DP was dragged like hell.
4) Pokemon Rotation: Excellent idea.
5) A saga dedicated to Team Plasma: Good idea
6) TR less regular appearances: Excellent idea because their comedy was losing water in DP.


THIS is doing things differently.

Ash becoming a rookie again.

THIS is not doing things differently, it's doing things stupidly.

I can't be more clear than this.

 

[Neo Blaze]

No, I don't know you. I value you by your posts. Sure, if you are a friend of mine, and we know each other through VM convos, I might understand you or I might try understanding your point.......but as of now, I am only judging you based on your post. No, it's not wrong to be an Ash fan liking BW. As much as I don't like the way he was portrayed in the anime, he still had some qualities that I like even in BW. I liked his interactions with N. I liked a few battles like Ash versus Stephan. That being said, I actually think Heck, I even liked the Elesa battle. I have moved on ages ago, but I still don't like when people say "people don't like BW because it's different from DP." It's basically saying "people want to see the DP formula again and again and hate BW because they didn't like the change." No matter how many justifications you give, that quote is downright offensive to me, because I am pretty sure people hated BW because Ash was acting like a newbie, not because BW used a different formula. Why alienate people and make them look as if they can't move on from something they liked? Because that's what I have seen over and over again in pro-BW arguments. In fact, the quote wasn't just for you, but to everyone who put out that argument. If you have any other argument, please come forward, just don't say people didn't move on.It's as offensive as you felt offended by my post.

My post was never meant to offend anyone, and honestly I still don't see how it could offend anyone. It's just how I've observed things. It certainly wasn't meant to all people who dislike DP and like BW, just those who still desperately wish for a show more like DP, there are people who haven't moved on, you know.

Ash was perfectly incharacter in DP.

Your opinion, not mine.

Anyone who watches it for Ash and his league performance will automatically feel bitter.

How do you know? Do you know everyone who watches the show for Ash? How do you know everyone feels like this? Sure, if there was one thing I disliked about BW, it was the league, but you know, the DP league was cool and all but also felt bitter as Ash was doing well and then they brought up a character solely created for the purpose of sending Ash out of the tournament.

You basically said "why people hate BW" and tell that "you are not bothered really", then what right do you have to say "people hate BW because it made things different from DP", because there is a huge difference between doing things differently and destroying character development.

I said why most people hate BW, based on my observations. Maybe I should've said some. I don't have the right to say that, if I outright stated my opinion is the ultimate truth. I didn't say: ''All people who hate BW hate it because it did things different from DP, and because I say it, it is the truth". I never said that, it was only my observation and opinion and in that light I have the right to say that. Again, it wasn't meant to offend anyone.

How is showing Ash like a rookie trainer "Okay" to you when he's NOT a rookie trainer? I don't get it at all. It's not JUST DP. Did you forget AG, Johto and Kanto? Did you forget all those journeys he had? Do you really like them to amount those journeys to nothing? That's absurd. Really, really absurd.

Of course I didn't forget that. I know all Ash has been through, it's just when I noticed the writers did things different, I came to accept it, as this was how Ash was going to be, so be it. He's not a rookie Trainer, they made him act like a rookie Trainer, but I've forced myself to live with it. There are other aspects of this show that I like, and I wasn't planning on giving up on it just because the main character "regressed''. You know what's really, really absurd? The way you criticize how I look at things.

I don't care if you think how I look at Ash's ''regression'' is weird, I only find it weird you act as if Ash's "regression" bothers every single viewer of the Pokémon anime, but this is not the case, some people aren't.

Finally, I don't want exchanging these paragraphs forever. I have no problem accepting BW and BW Ash after three years when the saga is coming to an end. But just this quote "People hate BW because it has done things differently from DP" is highly annoying and intolerable because making an experienced trainer inexperienced isn't doing things different but doing things irrationally.

What BW did different was

1) Regular tournaments : Excellent idea
2) Returning his childishness: Acceptable
3) Fast paced saga: very good idea considering how DP was dragged like hell.
4) Pokemon Rotation: Excellent idea.
5) A saga dedicated to Team Plasma: Good idea
6) TR less regular appearances: Excellent idea because their comedy was losing water in DP.


THIS is doing things differently.

Ash becoming a rookie again.

THIS is not doing things differently, it's doing things stupidly.

I can't be more clear than this.

Again, you see it as doing things stupidly, I partially agree, the writers have done stupid things, not only in BW but, yes, also in DP, but I see it as doing things different. You seem desperate to try to convince my way of seeing things are wrong and you also seem to try to talk me into a feeling of guilt, but seriously, I don't see how I've offended anyone, thus am not going to apologize for anything, and my views of the fandom and the show are not going to change. I perfectly understand all of what you are trying to say, I just don't completely agree with it, but do respect it.

I'm really not alienating anyone, why would I? I don't hate anyone who views DP as the best, even though I strongly dislike the saga myself. Most of them are really cool people. Really, I appreciate's other's opinions, and the image you seem to have gotten from my posts of how I am (alienating others and stuff) is completely not how I am.

I hate to act like a killjoy, but I have a feeling this conversation is turning into nothing and we're starting to talk in circles. I have my views and opinions, you have yours (and again, I respect those and find them interesting too). I don't even really care how you think of me, value me by my posts, judge me for all I care. Peace, and have a good day.

 

[Ashfangirl17]

This has got to be the third thread on thisXD so many things went wrong, mostly I think they shouldn't have over advertised every thing, BW 2? Remember what happened with this? A lot of us were thinking Dawn would be playing a big role in the tournament along with Cynthia but yah know.

The only good thing in my opinion that came out of this was the trio, I thought Ash /Dento / Iris had great chemistry at times, even though I found Iris really annoying.

I did like some of the new Pokemon and Dento was a nice add in but every thing else.

I mean come on, didn't take till the end of the series to know what they didn't do, that was let Ash actually win things.

 

[Ambipom666]

They went as far as to dedicate an entire arc to N and Team Plasma, something they had never done before. It looks to me they didn't want anything else to outshine Team Plasma, because N was too important to get overshadowed by literally anything. If they didn't care much for Team Plasma, why did they even bother creating Episode N? Like you said, if Team Rocket could always stay the main villains, then there was no reason for N and Team Plasma to appear at all.

Fair enough. I suppose it's less "the writers don't care about N/Team Plasma" and more "the writers wanted Team Rocket to have big roles as villains this time around."

I think the writers wanting to do things differently this series should not be under-emphasized.