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Controversial opinions

Flame Trainer
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the battles were serious and XY&Z closure was quite serious itself. Other than that, Ash wasn't anywhere that far from his usual self up to that point.
I'd say that’s what most people mean when it comes to a "mature" series since Pokémon inherently isn’t a "mature" show and will most likely never see typical mature aspects.

Most population with context to Pokémon would probably take "mature" to mean more battles, less slapstick, and a less goofy more shounen type protagonist with a strong team and high stake plot.
 
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The Prince is Back!
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XY turned Ash into a bad cliché shounen protagonist “destined to be the hero”.
To me, honestly, it seemed like that was Greninja's thing more than Ash's. Greninja was the hero destined for greatness, with prophesies, special powers, and all that jazz. Greninja was arguably just as much, if not even more of a protagonist than Ash was for XY. That's why I personally don't really fancy this ninja frog. It was the stereotypical and cliché shonen hero.
 
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To me, honestly, it seemed like that was Greninja's thing more than Ash's. Greninja was the hero destined for greatness, with prophesies, special powers, and all that jazz. Greninja was arguably just as much, if not even more of a protagonist than Ash was for XY. That's why I personally don't really fancy this ninja frog. It was the stereotypical and cliché shonen hero.
I think they both were, since at the end Ash-Greninja was a special transformation exclusive to their bond. But yeah, I’m not a big fan of Ash’s Greninja either (don’t know if you’re talking about him or the Pokémon), and I can’t help but think that the writers must’ve felt so disappointed having to make him lose like that after building XY&Z almost like a season fully dedicated to him. The AMV they uploaded before the final League episode went on air also didn’t help.
 
This, too, shall pass...
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The AMV they uploaded before the final League episode went on air also didn’t help.
I think XY overhyping itself was it's own fatal flaw, since everything ended in the status quo.
They talk up Ash's strongest team in ads? Goes nowhere; they still fail and back to Oak they go. Their finest accomplishment? Beating someone Ash already defeated several times. Imagine if Barry had replaced Paul in the Sinnoh league as Ash's last win.
Ash-Greninja? Can't overcome it's rival, then released.
Serena? A quick kiss then safely removed from the series.
 
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Serena is the worst Pokégirl the anime has ever had and her relationship with Ash lacked a lot; the chemistry was off. Adding here, the fact that she chose to do Contests after losing to Aria just goes to show the mistake adding Pokémon Performances in was. It gave us pretty performances but nothing more than that, and concept wise Contests just worked much better. But it’s possible the staff thought it was stale after having two sagas worth of it and two companions following the dream of Top Coordinator, which I can agree.

I like Serena and while I had problems with her storyline as a whole, she had some pretty solid character moments that made me appreciate it more. I seriously doubt that the writers thought that Contests were stale because both May and Dawn wanted to be Top Coordinators. At the very least, I doubt that was a factor as to why Serena didn't become a Coordinator. By the time XY started, Contests hadn't been seen in three years, the target audience at the time probably wouldn't have been that familiar with them and having a break between series would have potentially given them some new or unique ways to make Contest combinations and battles. Besides that, May and Dawn's storylines weren't really that similar despite having the same goal. They both wanted to become Top Coordinators, but they had different motivations for starting their journeys and different challenges to overcome. DP Contests weren't anything like AG Contests mainly because the writers had finally figured out how to make them more distinct from regular battles. There were a lot of Contest battles that flowed too much like regular battles and May often won by knocking her opponent's Pokemon out too. Dawn really benefited from being the second Coordinator too. I don't think that the writers thought that Contests were stale. They were removed simply because they weren't going to be featured in the then upcoming fifth generation games.

I think that the reason why she didn't become a Coordinator was mainly because there wouldn't have been enough time to pull it off in XY. Serena didn't have a goal until near the end of XY's first year. Having to take part in at least five Contests, provided that she didn't lose, within less than two years just wouldn't have worked. It arguably didn't work well for May either. She decided on becoming a Coordinator much earlier than Serena did with Pokemon Showcases, but it took her quite awhile to win her first ribbon. The pacing in AG is pretty uneven, especially as it progresses further into Hoenn and the Battle Frontier. That's a big reason why I think Serena only had to get three Princess Keys. They were limited on how much time they could spend for her goal and having a short requirement helped them to get through it faster than it would have been if she was a Coordinator. I still wish that she did become a Coordinator. Showcases were just so boring for me and even the best performances still made me think of Contests, but I don't think that there would have been enough time to pull it off. If XY went for four years instead of three years, then I think it could have worked, but they obviously would have wanted to start a new generation for the 20th anniversary celebration.

coldnoodles" said:
TRio doesn’t need to leave the anime at all but instead get something new done to them, since the formula of them wanting Pikachu and blasting off has gotten old years ago. And I’m not talking about a BW-like change as it simply doesn’t fit them, but them leaving the organization to follow their dreams or something like that. That’d cost their appearances in the anime (even if the dreams they chose to follow come up intertwined with Ash & co - in a case like this, I think this would be highly likely), but it’d be much better than the treatment PM19 is giving them. Also, they could possibly return to being villains at the end, just like Wobbuffet disappeared in BW but returned as soon as XY was about to start. It’d shake the fandom for being something new and a part of it would be wanting this concept back, but... yeah.
I feel like SM kind of did mix up the formula for them without making them leave the Team Rocket organization. Their ultimate goal is still to get Pikachu, but I don't recall that being the major focus of all of their appearances for the past couple of series. It felt pretty rare for Team Rocket to even interact with Ash and his friends during SM since they were often just doing their own thing instead. The idea of the trio still leaving the Team Rocket organization is still interesting, but I don't know how well that would work. At least in DP, Jessie had her Contest dreams, but being part of Team Rocket is such a key aspect of their characterizations and aspirations. I'm not sure how they could just not be villains for a full series.
 
The Prince is Back!
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(don’t know if you’re talking about him or the Pokémon)
I was talking about Ash's Greninja. To me, the darn frog is overrated as it is, and it taking basically a protagonist role just doesn't sit well with me. It also doesn't help that I'm sick and tired of people around the internet speculating, hoping, and pleading for Greninja to come back. The thing had its time in the spotlight already. Let Ash's other Pokémon shine now.
 
Give me your lunch money now!!
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Ash wasn't as "mature" or "serious" as people often claim it to be during the run of XY. It is a good portion of the XY&Z series where Ash got noteworthy serious. The reason people often remember Ash too serious throughout the Kalos journey should be for two main reasons, the battles were serious and XY&Z closure was quite serious itself. Other than that, Ash wasn't anywhere that far from his usual self up to that point.
First of all let me say to you something really serious...

YOUR PROFILE PICTURE ROCKS !!! Omg did you do it?

Ehem... Second of all

It's true, Ash was not that mature in XY especially in the begining, remember how he used to be really excited about Clemont inventions. It was not Ash who was serious it was the whole plot who was. The whole Greninja Mistery, The defeats against Sawyer,Alain and Wulfric, Team Flare trying to destroy the world. The difference between Sun and Moon and XYZ was the way on how those problems where approached. For example the whole Zygarde destruction was treated as a world ending situation in contrast the Necrozma arc was treated as a joke, the whole adults getting lazy was really stupid.

That's one thing I missed from Sun and Moon, being serious at some aspects. Yeah we had the Litten episode and the rise of the death fog episode but in a series that had the Ultra Beasts that in the games are mean to be destroying machines for me it's not enough, as I said before the only Ultra Beast who was seen as a demonic creature was Guzzlord and he is more famous for his screams than for his episodes.


About Team Rocket leaving, I will only say:

Jessie James and Meowth will not leave Team Rocket. They will end Team Rocket for good.
 
The Prince is Back!
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Their finest accomplishment? Beating someone Ash already defeated several times.
Pretty much the same problem I had with Rowlet and Decidueye's rivalry. Why would Rowlet be so passionate about wanting to beat an opponent it has already beaten before? Just because said opponent has evolved since? Still went overboard to my taste...
 
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Unpopular opinion: I like Goh just fine as a person, yeah, he can be a bit clueless and all that but honestly flawed characters are more fun to watch than Mary Sues.

As long as he learns from his mistakes I don't really see the issue with him being a bit of a dork. I think seeing him self-reflect a bit more may help the boy, we saw a bit of it in the last episode to air before the hiatus in which Goh thought Raboot no longer loved him and decided without asking his starter that it might be happier in Hoenn.
 
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Ash wasn't as "mature" or "serious" as people often claim it to be during the run of XY.
He wasn't serious or mature but kinda... dull? Like idk most of the time I felt like I'm watching Ritchie in Ash's body.
I think it's mostly because his companions (and almost everyone around) idolised him and it got boring really fast.
 
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It's true, Ash was not that mature in XY especially in the begining, remember how he used to be really excited about Clemont inventions. It was not Ash who was serious it was the whole plot who was. The whole Greninja Mistery, The defeats against Sawyer,Alain and Wulfric, Team Flare trying to destroy the world. The difference between Sun and Moon and XYZ was the way on how those problems where approached. For example the whole Zygarde destruction was treated as a world ending situation in contrast the Necrozma arc was treated as a joke, the whole adults getting lazy was really stupid.
The Necrozma arc wasn't really treated like a joke. Even with the adults getting lazy, it wasn't treated like a joke completely. It might not have been a world destruction level of threat like the Zygarde plot, but it still had serious affects on the Alola region and treated as such. Granted, I still think that the Necrozma arc was one of the highlights of SM, but it wasn't played for laughs.

santiagus said:
That's one thing I missed from Sun and Moon, being serious at some aspects. Yeah we had the Litten episode and the rise of the death fog episode but in a series that had the Ultra Beasts that in the games are mean to be destroying machines for me it's not enough, as I said before the only Ultra Beast who was seen as a demonic creature was Guzzlord and he is more famous for his screams than for his episodes.
I never really understood this notion that all of the Ultra Beasts had to be monsters of destruction. Even in the games, they aren't really shown in that kind of light. The only exceptions to that are Nihilego and Guzzlord, which were treated as bigger threats. You get to travel to their worlds in US/UM, but aside from Guzzlord, they aren't shown to be intimidating or threatening. Granted, there were some episodes that didn't make Ash and his friends look like competent Ultra Guardians, particularly when they would keep throwing Ultra Balls with no other backup plans, but most Ultra Beasts not being huge intimidating threats is pretty fitting with how most of them were treated in the games too. I thought that the Guzzlord episodes were pretty good, even though I prefer its debut two part episode over the attack on the Alola League. Even then, I thought that there were some nice moments with the cast working together to stop the multiple Guzzlord.

Plus, SM could be serious outside of the Litten episode and Mallow talking to her mother. It was more light hearted than most people might have expected and the slice of life format probably contributed to that as well, but SM wasn't all jokes and extreme facial expressions all the time. It had serious moments for the characters and the overall storyline.
 
Satoshi deserves more love
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I feel like SM kind of did mix up the formula for them without making them leave the Team Rocket organization. Their ultimate goal is still to get Pikachu, but I don't recall that being the major focus of all of their appearances for the past couple of series. It felt pretty rare for Team Rocket to even interact with Ash and his friends during SM since they were often just doing their own thing instead.
I have yet to finish watching Sun&Moon, so that’s good to know. It’s sad, though, that after mixing things up with them, PM19 came to make them the fall guys again. Talking as of now of course, since it’s still ongoing and they can possibly make things good again for them later.
 
"I am L."
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I think seeing him self-reflect a bit more may help the boy, we saw a bit of it in the last episode to air before the hiatus in which Goh thought Raboot no longer loved him and decided without asking his starter that it might be happier in Hoenn.
I don't see that as an improvement at all, no offense. I would see it as such if he talked it through with Raboot.
Which so few trainers have done thus far, it's honestly [redacted].

Unpopular opinion: I like Goh just fine as a person, yeah, he can be a bit clueless and all that but honestly flawed characters are more fun to watch than Mary Sues.
I know I said I whitdrawn my Stu assesment and later only played it up for comedy's sake, but I said it before and I'll keep saying it: having flaws that don't impact one's progress is as good as not having any.

Him being an inferior battler in comparison with Ash doesn't matter as long as he can pursue his goall even with his full team fainted. Him being a dork and clueless doesn't matter as long as conflicts that come in as a result of his misunderstandings are quickly resolved and brushed aside.
------
I firmly mantain episode 15 (and 22, albeit to a much lesser extent and for diffirent reasons) Gou was probably the best Gou, because he actually worked to earn the trust of a Pokemon and even after helping Cubone out, he wasn't expecting it'd let him get captured. That's really one of the two things I wish to see from him: either he struggles as a result of his supposed drawbacks and actually learns a lesson that lasts longer than a single episode, or he works hard for and earns what he wants.
 
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I always shudder when the topics of "maturity" and "seriousness" come up, because it's apparent nobody - including me - really understands what it means and just apply their own definitions. Using the above discussion as an example, Ash getting excited about Clement's inventions is regarded as a sign of "immaturity" by some viewers, but why is that considered immature behaviour? Why do fans regard anything that's goofy or intended to be lighthearted and funny as "immature"? It's never made sense to me.

When I think about what a mature person is in real life, I think of someone who understands their own wants and needs very well but doesn't make them the centre of everything, who takes responsibility for their actions and accepts accountability when they do wrong, and who can accept different points of view to their own. I think of people who can respond to set-backs, who are generally honest and positive, and has compassion for others.

Applying this to Ash, I find that he is a "mature" person for the majority of the series, but like any kid whose world view is still expanding, he has lapses. In early Diamond and Pearl, Ash has trouble accepting Paul's approach to being a Pokemon trainer. He gets angry about it because he sees it as wrong. That inability to consider Paul's approach and feelings fairly is a sign of immaturity on Ash's part. On the other side, Paul's inability to feel compassion for his Pokemon and tailor his approach to their individual needs is a sign of immaturity for him. Both characters mature throughout the course of their rivalry, but this prevailing idea that DP Ash was always a "mature" character completely misses the point. Here's another example from that season: in the beginning, Ash was very impatient and short with Dawn when she couldn't catch a Pokemon, almost to a character breaking degree. People always remember how invested he was in her successes and failures but forget that he had difficulty accepting she was a rookie on more than one occasion (such as blaming her for their first tag battle going wrong).

I guess my controversial take here is that there is no one season of Pokemon post OS that is more mature/immature than the other. I think the long-held view that DP and XY are "mature" and BW and SM are "immature" is based entirely on the faulty premise that lighthearted moments of comedy make the show more childish, therefore it's immature. Like that scene in SM when Ash shakes his arse to teach Rockruff how to build power. People leapt on that scene as a reason to bash SM and as proof of why SM Ash was more childish/immature, while ignoring the fact he was being completely selfless and helping a Pokemon that wasn't even his yet, because he wanted that Pokemon to succeed. OS is the only season to feature an Ash who is mostly immature, but since then he's been consistently mature with a few lapses here and there.
 
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Okay, please no one hate me, but upon further examination, I come to the realization that:

1. I actually do like Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, while I'm not sure it would make it's way into my top 5 favorite Pokemon movies, I have to admit to finding many scenes actually entertaining. Of course I can understand the complaints that people had with it.

2. On my latest rewatch of Giratina and the Sky Warrior I realized that I like Shaymin...Okay, I still didn't like certain scenes where he/she...whatever seem to have it out exclusively for Ash, but for some odd reason it didn't bother me like it use to when I last saw the movie, and I'm not going to lie, that goodbye they had at the end of the movie felt genuinely heartwarming.
 
The Prince is Back!
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in the beginning, Ash was very impatient and short with Dawn when she couldn't catch a Pokemon, almost to a character breaking degree. People always remember how invested he was in her successes and failures but forget that he had difficulty accepting she was a rookie on more than one occasion (such as blaming her for their first tag battle going wrong).
I feel like this is actually him carrying over his AG attitude. It was the series that first made Ash the "senior" of the group, as in, the most experienced Trainer, with May being the newbie. His was kinda bossy in the AG and had a hard time accepting advice from others. But during DP, he gradually grew out of it. And I just realized that it's not just Ash who became acceptant of ideas from others: the entire DP series seems to theme around learning from others: Ash learning from Dawn and even Paul, Paul learning from Ash, Dawn learning from Ash, and so forth. Each series teaches Ash something new, and DP taught him to be more acceptant towards ideas from others.
 
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I feel like SM kind of did mix up the formula for them without making them leave the Team Rocket organization. Their ultimate goal is still to get Pikachu, but I don't recall that being the major focus of all of their appearances for the past couple of series. It felt pretty rare for Team Rocket to even interact with Ash and his friends during SM since they were often just doing their own thing instead. The idea of the trio still leaving the Team Rocket organization is still interesting, but I don't know how well that would work. At least in DP, Jessie had her Contest dreams, but being part of Team Rocket is such a key aspect of their characterizations and aspirations. I'm not sure how they could just not be villains for a full series.
I find that while SM did a good job at mixing up the formula for TRio by having their lives not revolve around Ash, there’s never really any payoff to their separate activities. They had a mini rivalry with the Team Skull group but that never really goes anywhere, in spite of being given a setup in Alola where they’re regularly in contact with Giovanni, they never have anything to show for it yet there’s no repercussions (sure it may seem bad to have the villains shown ‘winning’ but maybe they could have allowed them to capture some Alola Pokémon to be sent to HQ for the sake of their mission as it just ends up making no sense why they’re so trusted in PM2019 when they didn’t actually accomplish anything in Alola), when they infiltrated Aether Patadise, it was treated basically as a means for them to screw up their plans when they could have demonstrated the competence they showed in early BW since Ash wasn’t involved at the moment and only arrived by chance both times, and it was completely pointless to give them a z-ring considering that beyond their first use of Black Hole Eclipse, they never actually achieved victory with use of a Z-move. So all in all, it just became same beat, different song. This is part of why I can never feel invested in anything TRcentric due to it feeling like a waste of time.
 
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