Controversial opinions

Discussion in 'Pokémon Anime and Manga' started by SinnohEevee, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. OniCornwalis

    OniCornwalis New Member

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    I don’t know how unpopular this opinion is, but I consider XY to be worse then S&M and DP for a couple of reasons: (Warning: essay ahead)

    As the series progressed, Ash went from being the mix of goofy and serious that we know and love him for to becoming a generic shonen protagonist that had none of his sillier traits except his love for food.

    The entire idea of Pokémon showcases. I really hate beauty pageants, so showcases- which are essentially Pokémon beauty pageants- being added to the show made me want to die inside. The fact that showcases are both anime-exclusive and female only just really rubs me the wrong way, and the fact that it’s basically just Appeal Round: The Competition made it a little boring to me. At least contests had battles after the initial appeal round to spice things up and make it livelier. And it’s not like performance battles aren’t a thing, because when Serena battles Aria, she specifically mentions that it’s a performance battle, which begs the question; if performance battles are a thing, why aren’t they a part of showcases?

    Next we have Team Rocket, who struggled with their character throughout the show. In the past, they were the comic relief for most of the series, acting as villains but having amusing personalities while carrying out their plans. They also had a softer side, as well as a loose code of ethics that they managed to follow. Even as they got more annoying as the series progressed, they managed to be somewhat tolerable. In B&W, while their personalities changed drastically, their character was still consistent throughout the series. In XY, they could go from helping mend a Pokémon’s branch back together to almost killing a girl within the span of a couple of episodes. Honestly, Team Rocket was at their lowest in XY.

    Then there’s the issue of Noivern, who was a clusterfuck from beginning to end. First off, his egg was just found in the middle of nowhere, without any explanation of why it was there or how it was abandoned. He got only 3 focus episodes and didn’t develop that much as a Pokémon or show a lot of personality. His evolution was also completely undeserved, as he didn’t have enough character buildup, like Goodra, or wasn’t around long enough, like Braixen or Greninja, and his personality completely disappeared after he evolved. He’s easily one of Ash’s most forgettable Pokémon in the entire series.

    Another issue are Ash’s four rivals, who were all pretty bad in their own ways aside from Sawyer. Let’s look at each rival individually:
    Sawyer is the best rival, as he was the first rival that had a Teacher-Student relationship with Ash, and it was interesting to see him learn from Ash and then surpass him after a while so that Ash then had to play catch-up to Sawyer. He was pretty good, and I have no real issues with him.
    Tierno was also decent, but his issues were that he didn’t have a Mega Stone, and besides his love for dancing, his personality was pretty bland for the most part.
    Trevor was fucking awful, and top 3 worst rivals in the series. He got almost no spotlight, his entire personality revolved around taking pictures, he had barely any battles with Ash, and to add insult to injury, his battle at the League was almost entirely glossed over and his MEGA-EVOLVED CHARIZARD died in one hit.
    Then there’s Alain. Alain, while not the worst rival in the series, is the most despised, for some very good reasons. He wasn’t introduced to Ash until the final season of the series, and had a Charizard that was OP for no reason. Then, he beat Ash in one of the most BS plot armor situations I’ve ever seen. He was the complete personification of a Gary Stu, and I hated his existence.

    Lastly, there’s Serena. While she had some amazing sides to her, there were some other sides that were terrible. A large part of her personality revolved around her crush on Ash, which wouldn’t have been so bad if it wasn’t so one-sided, due to Ash being one of the most love-blind people I’ve ever seen. She’s also the worst of Ash’s companions when it comes to battling, where she would’ve lost to Team Rocket once if it wasn’t for the help of Bonnie, who was a better battler then Serena.

    Now, I will say that XY does have positives, like how the battles are the best in the series, Serena has a great character arc, the main cast’s personality bounces off each other extremely well, Goodra’s entire arc, the Team Flate arc, and Bonnie every time she’s on screen. However, I still think that there major issues with the series that kept me from fully enjoying it, and I’m honestly confused why everyone calls it the best series of the anime.

    Edit: Something I’d also like to mention is that people complained about Ash using Torracat’s Flame Charge over and over again against Incineroar, citing that there wasn’t any strategy. That is an entirely fair criticism to make. HOWEVER, when almost the exact same situation happened in XY with Fletchling, people just completely ignore it. Let’s take a look at the similarities:
    The base forms of a fire type evolve into their mid forms, they battle against their fully evolved forms, they both learn to use Flame Charge, they both evolve in a ball of fire, and BOTH Ashes spam Flame Charge. Do you know what the only difference is? In XY, Ash somehow fucking wins the battle. In S&M, Ash uses this strategy against Incineroar because he assumed it would work like the last time he used the strategy, and it fails miserably, as it should.

    Listen, I realize that I’m ripping XY a new one right now, but I’m tired of people saying that the series is the gold standard for the anime when XY has such glaring flaws and, at least in my opinion, DP and S&M are much better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  2. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    I personally think the title of Ash's most 'forgettable' Pokemon would go to Palpitoad. Noibat at least had some personality when it was introduced; it was a crybaby had rely on others to get by, but I know where you're coming from. It was introduced pretty late and barely had any screen time to make its personality stronger. It had no Gym Battles and was really on ever used in battles against Alain and Sawyer. And honestly, I don't really think it should have tied with Alain's Salamence. I much prefer Scraggy over Noivern.

    As for Alain himself, I wouldn't call him a gary stu. He was skilled but he had his flaws, such as being manipulated by Lysandre. His Charziard, though? Yeah, it was OP. Battling other Mega Pokemon one-on-one I can see, but taking a hit from Primal Groudon? When most of the big legendaries in the anime are buil up to be these godly beasts that shouldn't be challenged, I don't think you should be taking those hits so well, especially when its a super effective hit from said legend's signature move.
     
  3. OniCornwalis

    OniCornwalis New Member

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    After thinking about it while watching this week’s episode of S&M, I’ve realized that Ash and Lillie has the potential to be much better then Ash and Serena. This is because with Serena, she spent the wlentire series with a one-sided crush on Ash that never goes anywhere until the final episode due to how extremely dense he is. Meanwhile, Ash and Lillie are forming closer bonds much more naturally, and it’s developing on both sides rather then just purely from the girl. Also, I could see actually see Lillie going to Kanto with Ash due to her not having any real obligations that make her have to stay in Alola, at least not right now.
     
  4. SerenaToAlola

    SerenaToAlola Active Member

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    Disagreed with your entire post and especially this. Sawyer was god damn annoying.
     
  5. Hidden Mew

    Hidden Mew Administrator Deputy Head Administrator

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    My guess is that they didn't want performance battles as a part of the Pokemon Showcase because that would make the competition look even more like the poor man's Contest. Showcases were already watered down Contest appeals, so throwing in a battle portion would have made people wonder why they didn't just bring back Contests even more. A battle portion could have made Showcases more interesting, but at the same time, they would have been better off bringing back Contests instead of relying on Showcases.

    I wouldn't say that their characters were consistent during BW. There were times where they would go back and fourth between their comedy relief personalities to their stoic Team Rocket grunt personalities. A few examples were James capturing Yamask, the Litwick episode and the whole Meowth traveling with Ash's group mini arc. Not to mention they basically reverted back to their comedy relief role/personalities during the last arc of the series. I don't know if I'd say that Team Rocket were at their lowest during XY, but I definitely wouldn't say that they were consistent in BW.

    I'm not sure if Goodra had enough character buildup for its evolutions. They rushed through Goodra's development too. There was slightly more of a point for Ash to get Goodra that fast for his Gym battle with Clemont and to save its home, but I'd say it was still undeserved like with Noivern. People often complain about Greninja taking up the spotlight and while I can understand those complaints, both Goodra and Noivern are by far the biggest problems I have with Ash's Kalos team. That and the fact that he had an empty slot for most of the series for no good reason. I wouldn't say that its one of his most forgettable Pokemon. I kept having to remind myself that some of Ash's reserve Pokemon exist during BW, but I never got to that point with Noivern. It was handled completely poorly though.

    I'm not sure if Trevor could be considered one of Ash's rivals. They only battled once and that was to calm down Trevor's Charmeleon. They seemed to be going for more of a connection between Clemont and Trevor at least during the Summer Camp arc, but that didn't really go anywhere. He appeared in the Kalos League, but there was no indication he had badges before and it was only so Mega Charizard X could crush Mega Charizard Y. He was just bland and forgettable. At least Tierno always came off as energetic and his dancing gimmick made him memorable. Plus, I give the anime credit for giving him a team that actually made sense with his goal, which is more than I can say for the X/Y games.

    As for Alain, I liked him at first, but he just became so overpowered by the time he appeared in XY proper. Going head to head with Legendary Pokemon and defeating ten Mega Pokemon in a row was so overkill. They had to make him a challenge for Ash, but they just went too far. He's basically as overpowered as Tobias was, but without the in-universe justification to make it understandable at least for me. I can buy that Legendary Pokemon are all extremely powerful in the anime, but a Mega Charizard X doesn't have that same kind of explanation. I don't know if I hate him that much. I like his friendship with Ash and how much cares about Marin, but he is definitely one of my least favorite rivals at least.

    Honestly, I never quite understood the complaints people had about Serena's battling skills. Prior to SM, she showed the least interest in battling compared to all of the other female traveling companions, but I didn't think that in itself was a problem. Battling is a big part of the franchise, but I don't think that having a main character who isn't interested in battling is necessarily a bad thing. Granted, there are still some issues that can be taken from this, like Serena going into Contests as a way to practice for Showcases despite how the two goals require drastically different skills, including actually being good in battle, and not having any female character actively into battling can be problematic, especially when the only competition the main female lead took part in was basically a glorified popularity contest. Still, Serena didn't really want to battle, so her lack of skills doesn't seem like that big of a problem.

    I'm not sure if I'm thinking of a different battle than the one you're referring to, but the first instance of Ash spamming Flame Charge like that that I can think of is his Gym battle against Valerie. He kept using Flame Charge so that once the effects of Trick Room wore off, Fletchinder could be even faster than before and win the battle. I could be forgetting another instance where he just spammed Flame Charge like that though.
     
  6. OniCornwalis

    OniCornwalis New Member

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    For Team Rocket in BW, Meowth traveled with the group as a way to gain their trust and carry out their plan, so I wouldn’t exactly call that being inconsistent, as he knew what he was doing the entire time. I can agree with your other points on TR though, as I’ll admit that I haven’t watched much of BW due to the quality drop.

    With performance battles, they could’ve done something like having them only occur during the Master Class or specific showcases or something like that, just to spice things up.

    In regards to Serena’s battling skills, I wouldn’t have minded except for the fact that it seems like she can’t defend herself fully when alone, as shown in episode 56 where she almost lost to TR. The fact that she had to rely on Bonnie, someone who isn’t even a trainer, in order to beat them showed that she couldn’t perform basic battling, something every trainer should be able to do regardless of their career path.

    For Fletchling, I’m talking about episode 35, Battles in The Sky, where Fletchling evolved into Fletchinder.
     
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  7. Violeta

    Violeta Colours

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    I definitely don't think that XY was as good as most folks hyped it to be. I guess it's due to how most fans thought that the battles in XY were amazing and how battling isn't my main focus when I watch the show. I prefer character interactions overall, but XY's cast was my least favorite cast at the time, so XY was like my personal Hell on Earth.
     
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  8. sc190191

    sc190191 Member

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    I really don't think many people consider XY the gold standard for the anime, at least not that I've seen, in fact I really think the majority of people say DP is.

    I'm really curious about your comparison between DP and SM. To me, the only similarity between the two is its a series based on Pokemon with a main character called Satoshi who has a Pikachu. Otherwise I feel the two series are nearly opposite ends of the spectrum (well really that SM isn't in the same class as any of the other series for a long, long list of reasons). Do you see the two as similar or you just happen to like the two of them the most?
     
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  9. Hidden Mew

    Hidden Mew Administrator Deputy Head Administrator

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    XY was highly praised during its run and it wasn't uncommon to see people say that it was their favorite Pokemon series. I don't know if that has drastically changed since XY ended, but when people talk about the best Pokemon anime series, I'm pretty sure both DP and XY come up the most as responses.

    I like XY, but I can definitely understand why people would say its overrated. There are a lot of good things about the series, but there were just a few too many problems I had with it for me to really get as excited about it as other fans, Ash's Kalos team, Serena's Showcase journey and Alain were some of the biggest noticeable problems that really pushed XY further down for me.
     
  10. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    I know i'll never understand why people thought anything would happen between Ash and Serena. The guy hasn't shown any interest in girls since the 1st season. And i'm not an expert on romance but is it normal to carry such deep feelings for a boy you haven't seen or probably even thought about for what was probably two years? And then keep those feelings when he doesn't even remember you? The first time she saw him again was on TV when he jumped off Prism Tower to rescue Pikachu. I can't remember it but I don't think she even had any context for why he was doing that. If I saw someone I haven't seen in two(or one) years, I don't think my first response would be to leave home and chase after them.
     
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  11. Shadao

    Shadao Pikachu's Global Adventure

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    The XY series was the series that brought an end to the Speed Stripes backgrounds used in battles in favor for actual backgrounds and a moving camera. Consequently, the battles all feel fresh and new. It also came after the largely controversial Black and White (Best Wishes) series which tried to reboot Ash back to his "original" personality. And considering that XY Ash is the polar opposite of BW Ash, it's not surprising to see people flock to the XY series after the bad reception with Best Wishes.

    The reason is rather simple. It's the first time since Misty that the main girl shows a crush on Ash. And it's not even something that can be dismissed as an English dub invention. It's far more explicit in the Japanese original. And after years of Ash being platonic friends with May, Dawn and Iris with the shipping fandom only having, at best, ambiguous hints that may or may not be romantic, this new development is rather unknown territory for everyone.

    Surely the safest story route for Serena, if she is going to leave by series' end, is not have a romantic crush on Ash. That's why he's platonic with the other girls. And that made a few people curious. At least for me. How far can they go with this crush? Is there a payoff to all of this?

    Ironically, Serena's crush is one of the few things in XY that lives up to (and exceeded) the hype. I don't think anyone was expecting the kiss, even among Amourshippers.
     
  12. OniCornwalis

    OniCornwalis New Member

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    When talking about DP and SM, I’m not comparing the two, I just think that they’re the two best series.
     
  13. Rockapheller

    Rockapheller Trainer since late 90's

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    I don't really care if XY is overrated or not. I remember myself being really excited for the series most of the time and I had many inspiration toward the franchise at the time, such as buying a 3DS and the games along with. I loved many things about the series and it was the time I enjoyed the most when I felt, I mean really, hyped for XYZ series once the Japanese opening got me to that point. The problems such as character development or rushed whatever have been the problem of the show since the day 1. None significantly makes XY worse than any other series in that regard. Losing the league doesn't make the series any worse than anything before it either, since this is literally the same in any other one before XY anyway. I wonder how fair it is to criticise XY series in "perfection" basis when none series is close to be the perfect one.
     
  14. Hidden Mew

    Hidden Mew Administrator Deputy Head Administrator

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    I don't think anyone expected XY to be perfect. Nothing can be perfect. I just don't think that other series having similar problems or how none of the other series are perfection themselves negates or downplays the problems XY have. To be clear, I don't think that XY is a bad series by any means. It does have good points and I can see why it received so much hype during its run for a few reasons. I just think that the problems I had with it prevented XY from living up to the hype
     
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  15. FluffleFi

    FluffleFi Don't squeeze me, I squeak like a chew toy!

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    I think on of my gripes about XY are the Pokemon. I won't say the other seasons had them all perfectly fleshed out and this might just be my lack of knowledge since I don't really care for the XY series, but I just feel like many of them just didn't get that much time to sow themselves off.

    Serena- Pancham stayed feisty and had a rivalry with Chespin, but other than that had nothing else. Sylveon was shy as an Eevee but that was quickly forgotten once it evolved, I don't even thing she and Bunnelby interacted anymore after that. I can't even begin to tell what Braixen's personality was like.

    Clemont- Bunnelby was pretty interesting at the start since no one in the group had ever had the regional critter. Down-to-earth, with cute interactions with Sylveon back when she was an Eevee and even managed to put up a good fight against Pikachu. But other than that didn't get too too much. What was Luxray's personality again? Seems like it just got all stern and serious. Dedenne might've been helpful for Bonnie but for the most part it was just there for cuteness. At least we didn't have to go through a ton of episodes of it going missing.

    Ash- Hawlucha was flashy and boisterous with a passion for battling, and got a sort of parental bond with Noivern. Sadly Noivern itself had lackluster development. It had like, what, four or five battles through the whole series, with none of them being gym matches? Goodra, as many will say, was very rushed for no real reason other than to get its arc done. And then it was gone for most of the series and god only knows if we'll ever see it again. Talonflame was brave and willing to put its life on the line, so I can give it that. Pikachu was the same as ever. And again, with my lack of knowledge, I don't know too much about Greninja but i'm sure it got just as much development as the likes of Charizard, Sceptile or Infernape since it was Ash's Kalos powerhouse.
     
  16. sc190191

    sc190191 Member

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    Even as you're trying to say how much the personalities are lacking you have quite a bit to say about the personalities, which I think kind of disproves your whole point. Every series has really missed out on some Pokemon's personalities and development, but I really think that was one of XY's strong points. I think it helps to pay attention to the background too, because they threw in a lot of minor interactions that really showed a lot of personalities, along with a lot of interaction between Pokemon. In XY it was much more subtle and way less in your face than SM, plus the personalities were more varied and complicated, rather than as simplified as they are in SM (but I will admit, just like you said about XY, I may have a lack of knowledge about SM since I hate it). And even with the size of the group, pretty much every Pokemon at least had some level of relationship with one another, with quite a few strong relationships that went across trainer lines (both people and Pokemon).

    Bunnelby and Sylveon do interact quite a bit after the evolution, Sylveon is still somewhat shy, but I feel they did a really good job of progressing that slowly and showing improvement, the issue wasn't just gone immediately like you say. Sylveon was able to mature and be very caring, even though she remained somewhat shy. Bunnelby actually got quite a ton of development for a non-Ash Pokemon and had a really interesting personality. Chespin and Pancham did get focus on their rivalry, but they had quite a lot of other quirks and focus points as well. I do agree Luxray got a little less development after evolving, but again I think Luxray still got quite a few background scenes that showed off some points of its personality. Even if Goodra was rushed, it actually still had quite of bit of personality. Honestly, I think Hawlucha was one of the most fun personalities we have ever gotten, and was much more complex than just the bravado and battling passion. I actually think Greninja got simplified a bit after evolution, I preferred the Froakie and Frogadier personalities, but still I think it had a good personality.

    Anyway, one thing I think harms a lot of people's opinions of the XY series as a whole is that XYZ is what they saw last. I agree that XYZ was a let down from XY, I think mostly because it had to be rushed. It was still good, but not as good as XY. Having seen XY now very recently, it has helped remind me just how great the series was. Like @Rockapheller was saying, I think at the end of 2015 (end of XY) was the best I felt about the series and Pokemon in general in a very long time. I don't want to speak for others too much, but I just wonder if some people forget just how good XY had been up to that point because all they remember is XYZ either being a bit too rushed, or are just sore about the league, etc. I actually was reading the old reviews on here from before I used this site after I watched XY episodes, and the general mood of them seemed extremely positive compared to reviews I have been involved in. So yes, XYZ got a little stale, but the series as a whole was still quite good, and I think its important to not forget just how good XY was.
     
  17. RetroPokeFan

    RetroPokeFan Well-Known Member

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    With
    Lana’s recent capture of Eevee
    I feel like Ash won’t be catching anything else in S&M.

    What we’ve seen of his team is what we get from here on out and for the league he’ll probabrly bring back one of his Kanto Pokemon.
    Sorry Greninja, Kanto chums only.
     
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  18. Alola

    Alola Hoo-Hoo-HA!

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    I actually didn't have a problem with how Team Skull were going about acquiring Nagisa. Yes, they shouldn't have been pulling on it (comically mind you), but who are Ash & Co. to dictate who is allowed to catch wild Pokemon and who isn't? I guarantee not every Pokemon is initially "comfortable" being caught by, or even given to, our heroes and other Trainers, so this was pretty jarring for me. Especially when Nagisa causes similar discomfort to other Pokemon that it meets (it freaking Tackles them!).

    I think they could have written that confrontation better.
     
  19. FinnishPokéFan92

    FinnishPokéFan92 Screw the money, I have rules! Wait...

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    There has been a lot of salt going around on the internet for Lana being the one to catch Eevee instead of Ash. It's like the Kalos League all over again: people are so hyped up for something happening, and when things don't go as they expected, they turn salty and start launching angry insults at the show.

    Even my personal reaction to this went the same way as it did for the Kalos League. At first, I was hyped up to the max, and when things went differently than expected, I was initially in a mixed mood, but after processing everything a little, I accepted it and moved on. That's my philosophy in life: I like to move on and leave bad feelings behind me. Makes it a bit harder for me to properly learn some important life lessons, though, but that's not the point here. Let's face it: Lana hasn't had any team changes in almost 100 episodes. It was a high time for her to get a new team member.

    So yeah. I don't mind Lana getting the catch instead of Ash. Not at all.
     
  20. Hidden Mew

    Hidden Mew Administrator Deputy Head Administrator

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    Despite not following the Japanese version, even I've heard of the backlash. I can understand it to a degree since Ash really needs more Pokemon and I assumed that he would get Eevee just so he could have both of the special starters on his team, especially if they are planning on showing a new Eeveelution.

    That being said, I do think some of the reactions I've seen are pretty extreme. The show didn't promise Ash would get Eevee. Fans just made that assumption. It was a reasonable assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. Plus, all of the female characters in the cast only have one Pokemon on them and Lana hasn't had much focus lately, so this seems like a way to do something about that. If one of the other cast members would catch Eevee, I would have bet money on Lillie capturing it. She seems to be the most popular character in the cast, primarily due to her video game counterpart, and she seems to be treated as the main female lead of the series. Still, Lana could use more focus and I'm sure that the reasoning behind giving her Eevee makes sense.

    Besides that, after watching the Eevee shorts, I just wanted Eevee to have friends, be happy and not be lonely anymore, so this works in that regard. There's also the bonus of Eevee playing with Popplio. I've seen images of the two of them together and it is adorable, so that's great.
     
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