Controversial opinions

[PrettySylveon]

Interesting, do you have a source for this?

It was in the Pokémon forum on TV Tropes.

 

[Greninjaman]

I can ABSOLutly see how Ash was meant to be retired after Sinnoh, but executive meddling forced the writers to continue using him instead of doing a new character.

 

[Johtoo]

I can ABSOLutly see how Ash was meant to be retired after Sinnoh, but executive meddling forced the writers to continue using him instead of doing a new character.

I could see that. Pokemon Series 1-13 felt like a flat continuation; whereby you could watch Ash evolve into the trainer that he had become in Sinnoh. His development was cosistant and you could recognize growth from the first episode to the last episode of the sinnoh league. After Sinnoh, however, the series have felt like a mess with inconstant versions of Ash and a clear restraint to recognize the previous series. I consider Series 1-13 to be the original series and obviously the better one, because it felt organic. I hope they return to this pacing one day, but I don't think it will happen.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I can ABSOLutly see how Ash was meant to be retired after Sinnoh, but executive meddling forced the writers to continue using him instead of doing a new character.

Even if Ash had won the Sinnoh League, there's nothing that meant he would have to be replaced afterwards. They were seemingly set on maintaining the status quo, but I don't think that they were originally planning on Ash being replaced with a new character.

 

[Daren]

I can buy the idea that Ash was planned to win Sinnoh at some point, but I doubt he was planned to retire since I don't think they really built to that properly; Paul was shown to be vastly weaker than Brandon and Cynthia so it would be a bit hard to buy Ash just barely beating Paul then managing to defeat Elite Four trainers.

 

[Antiyonder]

Even if Ash had won the Sinnoh League, there's nothing that meant he would have to be replaced afterwards. They were seemingly set on maintaining the status quo, but I don't think that they were originally planning on Ash being replaced with a new character.

I mean why else did it take this long for him to be permitted to win a game based league? Ever since the end of the 90s all the way up to today it's seldom if any to see an all ages cartoon (Japan or even US) with anything other than an underdog youth (DB Super the only exception I can find on Japan's end).

And making him a League winner (Game League) kind of chips away from said relatable status. Hence why it's easy to believe that the only option is to keep him as young underdog or retire him.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I mean why else did it take this long for him to be permitted to win a game based league? Ever since the end of the 90s all the way up to today it's seldom if any to see an all ages cartoon (Japan or even US) with anything other than an underdog youth (DB Super the only exception I can find on Japan's end).

And making him a League winner (Game League) kind of chips away from said relatable status. Hence why it's easy to believe that the only option is to keep him as young underdog or retire him.

I just don't think that the plan was originally for Ash to be retired after winning the Sinnoh League. Given how important his rivalry with Paul was and how there was years worth of buildup for their final battle, I could believe that Ash was originally meant to win the Sinnoh League, but I don't think that they meant to retire him afterwards. The Alola League wasn't the first time he won a League or had a noteworthy accomplishment either. He was still the underdog even after winning the Battle Frontier too.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Speaking of hypothetical League wins, for years I've had this theory that the Orange Islands arc was originally supposed to be an Elite Four arc. I don't think that this has been confirmed anywhere, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty suspicious:

1. It's hard to believe now, but originally the Pokemon anime wasn't meant to continue after Kanto because no one had anticipated just how popular the franchise would end up becoming, but once they realized the kind of moneymaking cow they had on their hands, everything else is history.
2. Ash needs to face four Gym Leaders to challenge the Orange League instead of eight, and... well, the title "Elite Four" says it all, doesn't it?
3. Rather than having to enter a massive tournament with multiple badge-collecting trainers, the Champion of the league is fought directly, and years later it was confirmed that winners of the League tournaments earn the right to challenge the Elite Four of the region whose League they win, and can then challenge the Champion for their title if they manage to beat all the Elite Four members.

With all these factors in mind, I get the feeling that the Orange League wasn't actually supposed to be a league at all, but rather the Elite Four bracket, but this had to be reworked when it became clear that Ash was going to be the protagonist for longer than anyone had anticipated, and thus couldn't become a League winner at this time. And honestly, for all it's worth, I'm glad that that happened, because whatever else one might say about his other League losses, the Kanto League is imo one that Ash definitely did not deserve to win: he was just way too inexperienced, half of his badges were not earned through a proper battle, many of his Pokemon were severely under-trained, and he had a tendency to over-rely on luck rather than skill. If Ash had won the Kanto League and then gone on to beat the Elite Four and Champion, it would not have felt deserved in the slightest.

 

[Daren]

Speaking of hypothetical League wins, for years I've had this theory that the Orange Islands arc was originally supposed to be an Elite Four arc. I don't think that this has been confirmed anywhere, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty suspicious:

1. It's hard to believe now, but originally the Pokemon anime wasn't meant to continue after Kanto because no one had anticipated just how popular the franchise would end up becoming, but once they realized the kind of moneymaking cow they had on their hands, everything else is history.
2. Ash needs to face four Gym Leaders to challenge the Orange League instead of eight, and... well, the title "Elite Four" says it all, doesn't it?
3. Rather than having to enter a massive tournament with multiple badge-collecting trainers, the Champion of the league is fought directly, and years later it was confirmed that winners of the League tournaments earn the right to challenge the Elite Four of the region whose League they win, and can then challenge the Champion for their title if they manage to beat all the Elite Four members.

With all these factors in mind, I get the feeling that the Orange League wasn't actually supposed to be a league at all, but rather the Elite Four bracket, but this had to be reworked when it became clear that Ash was going to be the protagonist for longer than anyone had anticipated, and thus couldn't become a League winner at this time. And honestly, for all it's worth, I'm glad that that happened, because whatever else one might say about his other League losses, the Kanto League is imo one that Ash definitely did not deserve to win: he was just way too inexperienced, half of his badges were not earned through a proper battle, many of his Pokemon were severely under-trained, and he had a tendency to over-rely on luck rather than skill. If Ash had won the Kanto League and then gone on to beat the Elite Four and Champion, it would not have felt deserved in the slightest.

Even as is, the OI pretty much turned into an Elite Four stand-in, complete with a Hall of Fame after beating Drake.

On that track, the OI turned kind of weird in retrospect. I think at the time they were expecting to end the series after Johto, which is why Drake was hyped up as undefeated.
Nowadays that is harder to buy; either Ash's Kanto party is insanely OP compared to all his later ones or absolutely nobody on par with the league kickers or major defeated rivals like Paul ever entered the Orange League.
A minor form of Dragon Ball syndrome, I guess. Freeza is the strongest in the universe except all these guys introduced later.

 

[prog rocker]

A minor form of Dragon Ball syndrome, I guess. Freeza is the strongest in the universe except all these guys introduced later.

Well, I can think of valid reasons for them, except the GT and movie guys since I'm not that familiar with them.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Even as is, the OI pretty much turned into an Elite Four stand-in, complete with a Hall of Fame after beating Drake.

On that track, the OI turned kind of weird in retrospect. I think at the time they were expecting to end the series after Johto, which is why Drake was hyped up as undefeated.
Nowadays that is harder to buy; either Ash's Kanto party is insanely OP compared to all his later ones or absolutely nobody on par with the league kickers or major defeated rivals like Paul ever entered the Orange League.
A minor form of Dragon Ball syndrome, I guess. Freeza is the strongest in the universe except all these guys introduced later.

For what's worth, Drake never being challenged by anyone seriously powerful isn't actually that hard to buy: it's very possible, if not likely, that the Orange League is a relatively obscure and localized event compared to the flashier "main region" Leagues or even the Battle Frontier, meaning Drake was possibly never challenged by anyone other than local Trainers, thereby making him something of a "normal-sized fish in a pond where every other fish is comparatively tiny" in a sense. Besides, he wouldn't be our last example of a trainer who's gone undefeated for a long while and is bored of it: in the DPP arc we had Volkner, who is only a Gym Leader.

Another thing that helps Pokemon in this weird power creep deal compared to DBZ is that Drake was never outright stated to be the strongest trainer in the world or even anything close to that (unlike how every new enemy in DBZ always happens to be "the strongest" until they're not because this brand new one that popped up right after the last was beaten was actually stronger except he was conveniently never mentioned before now), and it would take over two decades for the Pokemon anime to reach that "Frieza milestone" with Leon, who IS unambiguously supposed to be both completely undefeated AND the strongest Trainer in the world. Who knows what on earth is going to happen if Ash does end up defeating that guy, because it'll be hard to buy anything that comes afterward as a viable challenge.

 

[Rockapheller]

I loved how the animation had Pikachu's tail steel-ish looking during the run of BW series when it pulled off Iron Tail. It was more characteristic than just having the tail glow. I wish the animators kept that going on afterwards.

 

[Emmy]

I actually think that Gou's goal in and of itself isn't inherently bad, just that (like a lot of things in Journeys) it was the execution of the idea that was severely botched.

As soon as Gou caught all the Bug Types in Kanto within the span of one episode I knew we were in for some trouble. I just don't understand why the writers feel the need to speedrun through the catching process - it feels like they just want to get through with it quickly so they can dump Gou if he turns out not to be popular with audiences.

It should have played out similar to Ash's neverending goal since there's always going to be new Pokémon for Gou to catch until the day the Pokémon franchise ends. Therefore I don't see a reason to rush and instead each capture should have been it's own episode with Gou bonding with the Pokémon before he captures them and keeping them on a rotating team so they get decent screentime each. Lastly I would have removed the whole "catch a whole Evolution line" and left it with the more simple solution of catch a base Pokémon and just evolve it up.

Even with all these surgical cuts it still might not have been to everyone's tastes, but I reckon it would have at least made it more tolerable than it is now.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

I just don't understand why the writers feel the need to speedrun through the catching process - it feels like they just want to get through with it quickly so they can dump Gou if he turns out not to be popular with audiences.

Funnily enough, that's probably what they'll do with Goh at the very end. He'll be shown the way out just like all the other companions in favor of the new companion for the next series. I just don't really see the guy sticking around after Journeys has ended regardless if he succeeds in his catching dream or not (which personally I don't see happening because with every new region, a whole bunch of different new mons are always waiting just around the corner).

 

[Hidden Mew]

I like Goh, but I honestly can't see him lasting through multiple series at this point. I can understand why it is still kind of up in the air given that he is labeled as a co-protagonist and catching every Pokemon to somehow work his way back to Mew does give it an endless goal vibe like Ash's goal to become a Pokemon Master. But he is still associated with the eighth generation to an extent due to having Cinderace as his first Pokemon and I don't think his co-protagonist status is really that big of a deal. I don't see the region hopping gimmick lasting past Journeys, which really benefits Goh's goal just as much as Ash's current goal does, and they do like changing the main cast completely aside from Ash, Pikachu and Team Rocket every series since BW. It is too soon to say for certain either way, but I don't see Goh being part of the main cast for more than one series.

 

[Enzo]

And the other thing is... he's goal is just... not that engaging, really. I mean, it does seems nice to see a living dex in the anime and a male character in this show not being that interested in battles (since even Cilan and Brock did battling quite a lot, being both gym leaders), but the way he just one-shot captures a bunch of pokemon in a episode, doesn't forms any sort of bond with them, and they pratically rot away in the lab, barely interacting with him beyond feeding time... doesn't seems that engaging and exciting to me personally.

And I love that Mewtwo pointed this out: How exactly does making a living dex gets him closer to Mew????

''Oh silly you, but capturing every pokemon will lead him to Mew cuz Mew has the DNA of every pokemon!'' Okay, but why the need to physically capture all of them?

Is it to study them? He doesn't.

Is it to form bonds and make friends with them? He barely interacts with them beyond Cinderace and Sobble. Even Scyther hasn't made an appereance in MONTHS.

And what? He captures all pokemon and them Mew will just,,, show up? And let him capture it? Them what?

They really didn't thought his goal throught. It's not bad on paper, but it's not anywhere near enough to make an audience wanting to see more. If one year of this already got me tired, I can't imagine 3/4 more years of it. And the fact that the writers keep pushing Ash in the background just to make room for him,,, yeahhh...

 

[Kurolegacy]

And the other thing is... he's goal is just... not that engaging, really. I mean, it does seems nice to see a living dex in the anime and a male character in this show not being that interested in battles (since even Cilan and Brock did battling quite a lot, being both gym leaders), but the way he just one-shot captures a bunch of pokemon in a episode, doesn't forms any sort of bond with them, and they pratically rot away in the lab, barely interacting with him beyond feeding time... doesn't seems that engaging and exciting to me personally.

And I love that Mewtwo pointed this out: How exactly does making a living dex gets him closer to Mew????

''Oh silly you, but capturing every pokemon will lead him to Mew cuz Mew has the DNA of every pokemon!'' Okay, but why the need to physically capture all of them?

Is it to study them? He doesn't.

Is it to form bonds and make friends with them? He barely interacts with them beyond Cinderace and Sobble. Even Scyther hasn't made an appereance in MONTHS.

And what? He captures all pokemon and them Mew will just,,, show up? And let him capture it? Them what?

They really didn't thought his goal throught. It's not bad on paper, but it's not anywhere near enough to make an audience wanting to see more. If one year of this already got me tired, I can't imagine 3/4 more years of it. And the fact that the writers keep pushing Ash in the background just to make room for him,,, yeahhh...

Yea it’s kinda ironic when you think about it that the main character that catches Pokémon has resulted in the prospect of catching Pokémon for him to become incredibly stale. Ash catches something new? Still a fun thing to see. Koharu gets a new Pokémon? Also fun. Go gets a new Pokémon? Played out and boring. It certainly doesn’t help matters that even Pokémon he actually had an episode with like Cubone, Aerodactyl, Flygon and Raichu don’t even get to be of any higher importance than the Pokémon he just spam caught. It kinda gives a feeling of “if the writers aren’t even gonna care about these Pokémon’s existence, then why should I?”.

 

[Antiyonder]

Not entirely in line with the discussion, but in response to a bit from Dogasu's review of Machoke, Machoke Man where he critiques the fact that his line up was different from the game, yet no say Hitmontop and taking into consideration that:

1. Chuck, Bugsy and Falkner lack a Gen 2 Pokémon in their roster.

2. Some Gen 2 Pokémon are only available in Post Game at Kanto.

Was that oversight or the earliest case of Generation 1 nostalgia?

 

[Superior Serperior]

My most controversial opinion is that despite BW's flaws, the Satoshi/Iris/Dent group dynamic was the best since the OS. I feel like it's one of the few times all group members had established and very different relationships with each other compared to a more generic we're all friends or having a character who's just kinda there in terms of the group interaction (Serena, Sophocles, Brock for much of Johto/Hoenn/Sinnoh)

 

[RC821]

BW is my favorite anime season.