Controversial opinions

[Rockapheller]

I feel the issue most people see with Ash's personality in the later series is not of being 'generic', but rather inconsistent.
In BW, Ash was borderline dumb and felt like he lost all of his progress from DP.
In XY, Ash was more mature and inspiring.
In SM, Ash was a ‘goofball’ when not handling Pokemon or not battling
And JN feels like it takes all of those three previously mentioned versions of Ash into one.

Thanks, I just realize now that I have actually used a wrong word to describe the situation. I don't think Ash is a generic protagonist, otherwise he would have been the same character throughout various series. It is the inconsistency that has been bothering me since the BW series. Instead of letting Ash become a completely different persona each time we hop from a series to another, giving those personality traits to different protagonist and have Ash the same way as we remember from the old good days would be a better approach to this character than that, in my opinion.

 

[Soniman]

DP is often lumped in with OS and AG as being one consistent continuity, but if you go back and watch it, you'll find a lot of the inconsistencies start there, and it only gets worse over time.

I’ll be honest this is literally the first time I ever heard anyone say this about DP so you’ll have to forgive me for not seeing what you’re refering to. I mean I guess you point can to a inconsistency or two which is understandable if you’re writing a character who at that time appeared in nearly 400 some odd episodes but any such inconsistencies would fell negligible to the grander narrative that was being told.

 

[Daren]

I can only speculate, but to me, it seems the directors were told to not pay much attention to what came before and that anything they wanted to do with Ash was up to them, so long as they were keeping his core traits consistent. They likely abandoned maintaining a strong continuity the moment they first changed directors. DP is often lumped in with OS and AG as being one consistent continuity, but if you go back and watch it, you'll find a lot of the inconsistencies start there, and it only gets worse over time.

Honestly, I tend to forget DP had a different director from OS and AG but it explains a lot; I've posted at least once before that DP didn't feel like a continuation of the same story to me, and that could explain why.

 

[Jaye]

I’ll be honest this is literally the first time I ever heard anyone say this about DP so you’ll have to forgive me for not seeing what you’re refering to. I mean I guess you point can to a inconsistency or two which is understandable if you’re writing a character who at that time appeared in nearly 400 some odd episodes but any such inconsistencies would fell negligible to the grander narrative that was being told.

Talking strictly about Ash's character, there are two inconsistencies which stood out to me.

The first was Ash's combative and argumentative nature early on in DP. By this point, we've seen Ash grow enough as a person to not get into fights and arguments as easily as he used to, but he falls hard into old habits with both Paul and Dawn. While his issues with Paul are at least understandable, his early arguments with Dawn weren't. Ash got mad at her for accidentally hitting him in the face with a Pokeball, then got mad again over a petty squabble about whether battles or contests were better. In a vacuum, this doesn't seem too bad, but when you consider he was just travelling with May not too long ago, we start to see issues. May also messed up her first attempt at catching a Pokemon, but Ash didn't get mad at her. May chose contests over gyms, and Ash supported her from the beginning and didn't argue. Ash handles both situations with more maturity than he does in DP, despite being more experienced in the latter, without any real narrative justification.

This leads us to Paul. While I can see Paul getting under Ash's skin, he's not the first person Ash has met with such a radically different ideology to his own. Meeting those people never caused Ash to doubt himself or rethink how he did things. He got stomped by Brandon twice, having his methods questioned all the while, yet he bounced back quickly and won. His confidence in himself should be strong. Yet one bad loss to Paul at Lake Acuity caused his world to come crashing down, as if all the affirmation he'd gotten over the course of his journey didn't matter.

In the first instance, yes, it's fairly negligible in the grand scheme of things. I bring it up because it's a noticeable example of Ash's maturity conveniently abandoning him in a show where he's often lauded for being mature. However, the second one isn't negligible, because the Ash/Paul rivalry serves as the central conflict for the entire series and the Lake Acuity battle was supposed to be a turning point for both characters. Paul lost to Brandon and should be doubting himself, yet crushed Ash, who actually beat Brandon and should have no reason to question himself just because he lost one battle. Heck, his reaction in that instance wasn't even consistent with his reaction to his other defeats within the same season. Losses to Roark and Fantina prompted a rethink of his strategy and training to execute a new one, not moping around feeling sorry for himself.

I'm spilling into my problems with DP's narrative as a whole, but the conceit of this rivalry in particular only works if you believe Ash has anything to prove to Paul and forget that he just won the Battle Frontier and has countless examples of drawing out his Pokemon's potential.

 

[Soniman]

Talking strictly about Ash's character, there are two inconsistencies which stood out to me.

The first was Ash's combative and argumentative nature early on in DP. By this point, we've seen Ash grow enough as a person to not get into fights and arguments as easily as he used to, but he falls hard into old habits with both Paul and Dawn. While his issues with Paul are at least understandable, his early arguments with Dawn weren't. Ash got mad at her for accidentally hitting him in the face with a Pokeball, then got mad again over a petty squabble about whether battles or contests were better. In a vacuum, this doesn't seem too bad, but when you consider he was just travelling with May not too long ago, we start to see issues. May also messed up her first attempt at catching a Pokemon, but Ash didn't get mad at her. May chose contests over gyms, and Ash supported her from the beginning and didn't argue. Ash handles both situations with more maturity than he does in DP, despite being more experienced in the latter, without any real narrative justification.

This leads us to Paul. While I can see Paul getting under Ash's skin, he's not the first person Ash has met with such a radically different ideology to his own. Meeting those people never caused Ash to doubt himself or rethink how he did things. He got stomped by Brandon twice, having his methods questioned all the while, yet he bounced back quickly and won. His confidence in himself should be strong. Yet one bad loss to Paul at Lake Acuity caused his world to come crashing down, as if all the affirmation he'd gotten over the course of his journey didn't matter.

In the first instance, yes, it's fairly negligible in the grand scheme of things. I bring it up because it's a noticeable example of Ash's maturity conveniently abandoning him in a show where he's often lauded for being mature. However, the second one isn't negligible, because the Ash/Paul rivalry serves as the central conflict for the entire series and the Lake Acuity battle was supposed to be a turning point for both characters. Paul lost to Brandon and should be doubting himself, yet crushed Ash, who actually beat Brandon and should have no reason to question himself just because he lost one battle. Heck, his reaction in that instance wasn't even consistent with his reaction to his other defeats within the same season. Losses to Roark and Fantina prompted a rethink of his strategy and training to execute a new one, not moping around feeling sorry for himself.

I'm spilling into my problems with DP's narrative as a whole, but the conceit of this rivalry in particular only works if you believe Ash has anything to prove to Paul and forget that he just won the Battle Frontier and has countless examples of drawing out his Pokemon's potential.

I’ll be honest a lot of this reads like “well since Ash isn’t mature 100% of the time in every instance it proves contrary” when AG Ash is infamous for his extreme ego problems that he displayed constantly until Brandon finally beat it out of him, whatever similar issues he in DP had are vastly played down in comparison. Ash and Dawn bickered in like two early DP episodes before they were totally friendly from then on I’m pretty sure it was just two people who are still new to each other trying to get used to being a group still, also Dawn and May’s personalities weren’t the same when they first joined Ash so I feel as though you can’t expect the same behavior both times

And I think you’re missing the point with Paul and his relationship with Ash, whatever prior character questioned Ash’s methods it was always from a place of genuine mentor-like advice and a desire to see Ash improve and nearly all those characters treated their Pokémon well just like any other non-antagonist/villain character in the show.

Paul butted heads with Ash because he wasn’t trying to teach Ash how to be better, just tell him he sucked and the way he raises Pokémon was wrong. And he got under Ash’s skin because he consistently showed him that the way he trains his Pokémon, something that Ash heavily disapproves of, got results. He beat Ash in nearly every altercation they had and frequently got into arguments because Ash felt he had something to prove, and after Chimchar was abandoned even more so. Basically what I’m saying is Ash is justified to feel the need to defend himself because his own philosophy as a trainer that he’s always lived by was being challenged and criticized so when he puts his everything into the Lake Acuity match and still loses it shakes him. But I wanna make it clear he was only sulking for like half an episode before returning to normal again, Ash has never brooded for more than one episode tops after a bad loss and this was no exception.
Wasn’t this near universally agreed to be normal character development as the character grew and experienced different things as opposed to shifting his personality with no real impetus prior because they wanted his personality to reflect the overall tone of the saga they wanted to create?

I think were using the term “reboot” extremely liberally now if I’m honest.

 

[Jaye]

I’ll be honest a lot of this reads like “well since Ash isn’t mature 100% of the time in every instance it proves contrary” when AG Ash is infamous for his extreme ego problems that he displayed constantly until Brandon finally beat it out of him, whatever similar issues he in DP had are vastly played down in comparison. Ash and Dawn bickered in like two early DP episodes before they were totally friendly from then on I’m pretty sure it was just two people who are still new to each other trying to get used to being a group still, also Dawn and May’s personalities weren’t the same when they first joined Ash so I feel as though you can’t expect the same behavior both times

I mean, why not expect a character who has matured to actually act like it? If someone's learned their lessons, the expectation is those lessons stick, and if they don't, there has to be a legitimate reason for it. We're not talking about a random moment mid-season. This was episode four of DP, and Ash was already regressing on charater development. Him and Dawn being "new to each other" is an incredibly convenient excuse for Ash's arbitrary impatience with a rookie trainer. The only reason he's mad in this scenario is to set-up the whole gyms vs contests debate with Nando, which never made sense in the first place, given Ash had just finished travelling with May and knows full well how legitimate contests are as competition. It's an example of Ash being made to act one way for the convenience of the story, rather than it being his natural, expected reaction.

Paul butted heads with Ash because he wasn’t trying to teach Ash how to be better, just tell him he sucked and the way he raises Pokémon was wrong. And he got under Ash’s skin because he consistently showed him that the way he trains his Pokémon, something that Ash heavily disapproves of, got results. He beat Ash in nearly every altercation they had and frequently got into arguments because Ash felt he had something to prove, and after Chimchar was abandoned even more so. Basically what I’m saying is Ash is justified to feel the need to defend himself because his own philosophy as a trainer that he’s always lived by was being challenged and criticized so when he puts his everything into the Lake Acuity match and still loses it shakes him. But I wanna make it clear he was only sulking for like half an episode before returning to normal again, Ash has never brooded for more than one episode tops after a bad loss and this was no exception.

Let's be clear here. The inconsistecy isn't Ash butting heads with Paul about his treatment of Chimchar, his training methods or his general attitude. The inconsistency lies in his reaction to a setback. Ash has lost league battles with higher stakes and gotten over them faster than he did this defeat to Paul. We didn't get a whole episode dedicated to Ash being sad he lost to Harrison or Tyson. Hell, Ash got possessed by an evil king and put his own Pokemon in harms way against Brandon and still got over that far quicker than his defeat to Paul. The show had long established Ash wasn't a sulker anymore. His response to defeat was to get back up and try again, as many times as he needed. It's his bread and butter.

So I don't buy that this idealogical struggle should make him act any differently. Paul is one guy who happens to do things differently to Ash, yet ultimately isn't even as successful as Ash is. Ash has the accolades and healthy stable of Pokemon that prove his methods work, and these things should form the basis for confidence strong enough to whether a bad defeat, but the show chooses not to acknowledge them.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Ash should have used reserves in every tournament. Maybe we can disagree on what is more "fair" but that ultimately doesn't matter that much because Ash's Pokémon aren't real. Ash switching up his team every match and strategizing on which Pokémon to bring is just flat out a more interesting viewer experience.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

I've seen "Ash lost his spicy tongue after OS" complaint many times before, but it's my first time too that someone say that his AG and DP personalities were different. For me, he has the exact same personality in AG, DP and XY. In BW they tried to make him act like his OS self at start, but it didn't last. SM is the biggest change, making him more "childish" and "pure hearted" and then JN partially continued this.

 

[Johtoo]

I can't believe there are people suggesting Ash's hoenn personality differs from his Sinnoh one. I would argue that Ash's personality between those two sagas are even closer than Ash's Kanto -> Johto personality. Some of you are forgetting exactly how different Ash used to act at the beginning of the series. He showed little responsibility for his own actions, he was arrogant, smarky, somewhat violent and completely self-centred. He didn't even care for Pikachu's welfare in the electric showdown episode. Not to mention he tried to physically punch misty only a few seconds prior to calling Pikachu a coward for not taking up the challenge. By Orange Islands, most of that was gone, but he was still smarky with his rhetoric, and he would still show some sense of being self-centred. That all dried out by midway through Johto though. My memory of Hoenn isn't as clear as it is with Sinnoh, but from what I remember, by the end of Johto, start of Hoenn, Ash was essentially a more narrowed down character until the Unova reboot. So again, i'm not sure how anyone could say Sinnoh Ash is completely different from his previous iterations. I mean, he even arrived into the region in his hoenn gear and the last episode of hoenn and the first episode of sinnoh felt like two episodes that came next to each other.

 

[Weddingbells]

I mean, why not expect a character who has matured to actually act like it? If someone's learned their lessons, the expectation is those lessons stick, and if they don't, there has to be a legitimate reason for it. We're not talking about a random moment mid-season. This was episode four of DP, and Ash was already regressing on charater development. Him and Dawn being "new to each other" is an incredibly convenient excuse for Ash's arbitrary impatience with a rookie trainer. The only reason he's mad in this scenario is to set-up the whole gyms vs contests debate with Nando, which never made sense in the first place, given Ash had just finished travelling with May and knows full well how legitimate contests are as competition. It's an example of Ash being made to act one way for the convenience of the story, rather than it being his natural, expected reaction.



Let's be clear here. The inconsistecy isn't Ash butting heads with Paul about his treatment of Chimchar, his training methods or his general attitude. The inconsistency lies in his reaction to a setback. Ash has lost league battles with higher stakes and gotten over them faster than he did this defeat to Paul. We didn't get a whole episode dedicated to Ash being sad he lost to Harrison or Tyson. Hell, Ash got possessed by an evil king and put his own Pokemon in harms way against Brandon and still got over that far quicker than his defeat to Paul. The show had long established Ash wasn't a sulker anymore. His response to defeat was to get back up and try again, as many times as he needed. It's his bread and butter.

So I don't buy that this idealogical struggle should make him act any differently. Paul is one guy who happens to do things differently to Ash, yet ultimately isn't even as successful as Ash is. Ash has the accolades and healthy stable of Pokemon that prove his methods work, and these things should form the basis for confidence strong enough to whether a bad defeat, but the show chooses not to acknowledge them.

But your missing the point still I believe. The ideological struggle should make him act differently. This isn't just Ash losing and getting back up. This is a trainer who basically tells to Ash face that the way he trained and befriend Pokemon makes him weak and Paul was absolutely right to abandon chimchar. He basically insulting every single.of the hard work Ash has done prior to DP. Why would Ash even treat that as any other loss? Of course it's different

 

[Weddingbells]

I've seen "Ash lost his spicy tongue after OS" complaint many times before, but it's my first time too that someone say that his AG and DP personalities were different. For me, he has the exact same personality in AG, DP and XY. In BW they tried to make him act like his OS self at start, but it didn't last. SM is the biggest change, making him more "childish" and "pure hearted" and then JN partially continued this.

AG and DP sure. XY? Nah I can't see XY Ash trying to fist fight a kid for bumping into him like AG Ash did lol

 

[Daren]

Nah I can't see XY Ash trying to fist fight a kid for bumping into him like AG Ash did lol

That was unironically my favourite part of Destiny Deoxys because of how wild it is.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

AG and DP sure. XY? Nah I can't see XY Ash trying to fist fight a kid for bumping into him like AG Ash did lol

More like a kid who pushed him back. And not like he was all nice in XY, remember how coldly he treated Serena at that time just because she was trying to talk to him?

 

[jungle_penguins]

For all the Rocket appearances years ago a lot of them felt obligatory. And they couldn't even give onscreen wins for the Contests despite that. I love the Rockets, but I'm okay with them not being there in some episodes. Though there was a severe lack of them for the past 6 years and I hope one day there's a behind the scenes explanation because it's clear that the production team loves the Rockets even more.


With what's probably the ending the the old music usage and all the confusion stemming from it, my guess is there's a very simple reason for why it's been avoided a lot, being just personal preference. But I think this is a good enough justification. With BW being very new, it makes sense to not use a lot of the old tracks. XY following up uses BW's music, and so on with SM (which I argue doesn't need it that much) before the new composer. Every now and then a movie track or even an older show track would carry over randomly if they wanted to (Sinnoh motto appears in XY like once). I don't think it's a rights issue or even some random upper level mandate. Feels like a choice, as in anyone could've used Kanto music at any point but stuck with a newer library. I only find it an an issue within the 2019's series with how often it does references and revisits. Though if it does turn out to be a rights or mandate then whoops me.

 

[Johtoo]

For all the Rocket appearances years ago a lot of them felt obligatory. And they couldn't even give onscreen wins for the Contests despite that. I love the Rockets, but I'm okay with them not being there in some episodes. Though there was a severe lack of them for the past 6 years and I hope one day there's a behind the scenes explanation because it's clear that the production team loves the Rockets even more.


With what's probably the ending the the old music usage and all the confusion stemming from it, my guess is there's a very simple reason for why it's been avoided a lot, being just personal preference. But I think this is a good enough justification. With BW being very new, it makes sense to not use a lot of the old tracks. XY following up uses BW's music, and so on with SM (which I argue doesn't need it that much) before the new composer. Every now and then a movie track or even an older show track would carry over randomly if they wanted to (Sinnoh motto appears in XY like once). I don't think it's a rights issue or even some random upper level mandate. Feels like a choice, as in anyone could've used Kanto music at any point but stuck with a newer library. I only find it an an issue within the 2019's series with how often it does references and revisits. Though if it does turn out to be a rights or mandate then whoops me.

The whole music rights issue frustrates me, because there is no way OLM or the Pokemon Company wouldn't have rights to previous scores. Didn't they use a bunch of Kanto BGM in the final few episodes as well? I honestly think they just looked at the vast catalogue of music and realised it was easier to just stick with the newer scores for some reason. It's a shame, because while they're some great soundtracks coming after sinnoh, the best soundtracks from the anime all come from the earlier gens and taking them from the anime felt like a sin, haha. I would equal it to the dub removing the original score, because they basically removed music that was iconic to the anime as well.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Togekiss evolve due to friendship and evolution stone, it's being a 3-stage doesn't mean it's powerful, and it was inexperienced in battles, that's why it had a hard time against Jessie in both of their battles and why Dawn used it in passive roles.
They had better interactions outside of contests, I can understand, but she was a better rival against Dawn and Serena. She had to use Harley's pokémon after all.

 

[jungle_penguins]

The whole music rights issue frustrates me, because there is no way OLM or the Pokemon Company wouldn't have rights to previous scores. Didn't they use a bunch of Kanto BGM in the final few episodes as well? I honestly think they just looked at the vast catalogue of music and realised it was easier to just stick with the newer scores for some reason. It's a shame, because while they're some great soundtracks coming after sinnoh, the best soundtracks from the anime all come from the earlier gens and taking them from the anime felt like a sin, haha. I would equal it to the dub removing the original score, because they basically removed music that was iconic to the anime as well.

Rights issues are sometimes complicated even if it seems like they own everything, but likely not this case. I remember speculation on whether or not it could be an issue with TV broadcast vs. streaming (That 4 part Arceus on streaming used plenty of DP era music) but given how the past 11 episodes (and every once in a while for the past decade) used the old music with no issues, it seems to be creative choice only.