Signature Move Incentive

[DRaB]

I've had this idea bouncing around in my skull for the past few days... Wouldn't it be nice if Game Freak encouraged trainers to let their Pokemon keep their signature moves?

Allow me to explain. I was on Smogon, looking up Dugtrio, and I noticed something. Not a single optimized build for Dugtrio employed the move Dig. (Dig is not technically Diglett/Dugtrio's signature move, but they were initially the only Pokemon to learn it by level-up.)

This is obviously because Earthquake ends up being a better move in the long run. It has a base power of 100 (150 STAB), over Dig's base power of 80 (120 STAB). Sure, Dig provides a semi-invulnerable turn... that is, assuming the opponent doesn't have Magnitude or Earthquake. If they do, you're done.

But what if Diglett and Dugtrio got a 'signature move' x1.5 bonus when they used Dig? That would bump Dig up to 180 power, including STAB, over Earthquake's 150 base power, (since Earthquake would not get the 'signature move' bonus.) That way, Pokemon who are "supposed" to know a certain move have a greater incentive to keep it, and it adds a more interesting dynamic to the battle. Dugtrio SHOULD be more adept at digging than any other Pokemon--it's how he gets around!

This also solves the problem of specific Pokemon 'losing' their signature moves when newly-introduced Pokemon are also able to learn that move. Well, not every Pokemon can keep a move all to itself, (Hell, even Ditto shares Transform with Mew!) but Grovyle and Sceptile would be able to 'reclaim' Leaf Blade from Victreebel, Bellossom, Leafeon and Gallade. The other guys can still use it, but not as effectively as the Pokemon who created the technique.

I doubt they will ever implement this, but I think it would be a good idea if carefully tweaked.

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Frenzy Plant]

An interesting idea; but not all Pokémon have a signature move, it would cause huge balance issues. What's an Abra's signture move? Teleport. How are we going to fairly beef that up? And when it evolves, an Alakazam with that bonus to Psychic would be outrageously broken, as they'd have to give it to each Pokémon for hte move it's most famously associated with.

 

[SkyknightXi]

There's also Staryu/Starmie's own trademark (as in, the only series to have it) move...Camouflage. I do wonder how you'd go about making that a centerpiece move...

 

[SharKing]

Oy. There's a very good reason why Smogon doesn't give Dugtrio Dig. Even if it DID go up to 180 power, Dugtrio'd still be twice as vulnerable to Earthquake. Earthquake is more reliable.

And Black and White are gonna be broken enough with the new Pokes' high offensive stats and Invigorate. We don't need this bonus.

 

[NiiKo]

Also Dig is a pretty bad move even if it has 300 Base Power, it gives the enemy enough time to switch to something that is...Flying...2-Turn moves are a no-no in competitive playing.

 

[SharKing]

Also Dig is a pretty bad move even if it has 300 Base Power, it gives the enemy enough time to switch to something that is...Flying...2-Turn moves are a no-no in competitive playing.

Sorry for disagreeing with someone who agrees with me, but I should point out: Dugtrio has Arena Trap. That's why I didn't mention the switching; because it can't happen.

But yeah, two-turn moves are just bad. The only thing that even comes close to an exception is Shadow Force, and that's only for Protect-breaking.

 

[SkyknightXi]

Do note that the topic creator acknowledged that if the opposition has Magnitude or Earthquake, you're in severe trouble if you try to Dig your way to them...

Anyway, since we don't have movelists yet, are we even sure yet that, high offense stats or no, this will be a heavily offensive metagame? Granted that I'd like to see it shift to 2HKOs and 3HKOs being the norm, rather than 1HKOs and 2HKOs; give the matches proper length. (That, and I figure something is being done wrong on GameFreak's side if the metagame ends up with an offense/defense imbalance...)

 

[Our Wasted Years]

If you can make Dig work I say use it. The only reason people use Bounce on Gyarados is because it get's STAB and a chance to paralyze. Other then that 2 turn moves suck. If you really want to take a chance and give your opponent a free turn, go ahead but just know you can't do that every single game.

 

[DRaB]

Okay, so Dig isn't the best example. I'm actually not really into the Metagame, so if I had more interest, I probably could have picked a better move to present my case. (I tend to use Smogon for optimizing my in-game play, so I don't always follow everything it says.)

But at the same time, Dig is kind of a perfect example. It presents a tradeoff. Do you make your potential attack power higher while risking your hide or do you play it safe with the less damaging Earthquake? Well, thanks to responses from people who actually know what they're talking about, I guess Earthquake would still end up being better. But that's why discussing things is good, and I would like to thank everyone who pointed those things out.

And as far as balance issues are concerned... Well, the way I see it, some Pokemon have better stats and/or movesets than others, as it currently stands. Now, I don't know much about the Metagame, but I DO know that there are tiers. I figure most Pokemon with a signifigant signature move bonus would be bumped up a tier or two. There would still be weaker and stronger Pokemon, but the roles might be jumbled up a bit. It could be fun!

And remember, Game Freak doesn't really care about the Metagame. That's a fan thing. The point I'm trying to make is this: Learning new moves is great and all, but sometimes there's a move that a Pokemon is basically created around, (Diglett - Dig; Meowth - Pay Day and it seems odd to me that ridding said Pokemon of that move is the only way for that Pokemon to be his or her best. That's all.

Not really sure what to say about Starmie's Camouflage, though. The thought of non-damaging signature moves had crossed my mind when I was posting, but I've got nothing. In the hands of that Pokemon it becomes a priority move, perhaps? I really don't know.

Again, I doubt this would be implimented anyway, so I guess it's technically a moot point, but I find musing on it to be enjoyable.

 

[pikmin]

I've had this idea bouncing around in my skull for the past few days... Wouldn't it be nice if Game Freak encouraged trainers to let their Pokemon keep their signature moves?

Allow me to explain. I was on Smogon, looking up Dugtrio, and I noticed something. Not a single optimized build for Dugtrio employed the move Dig. (Dig is not technically Diglett/Dugtrio's signature move, but they were initially the only Pokemon to learn it by level-up.)

This is obviously because Earthquake ends up being a better move in the long run. It has a base power of 100 (150 STAB), over Dig's base power of 80 (120 STAB). Sure, Dig provides a semi-invulnerable turn... that is, assuming the opponent doesn't have Magnitude or Earthquake. If they do, you're done.

But what if Diglett and Dugtrio got a 'signature move' x1.5 bonus when they used Dig? That would bump Dig up to 180 power, including STAB, over Earthquake's 150 base power, (since Earthquake would not get the 'signature move' bonus.) That way, Pokemon who are "supposed" to know a certain move have a greater incentive to keep it, and it adds a more interesting dynamic to the battle. Dugtrio SHOULD be more adept at digging than any other Pokemon--it's how he gets around!

This also solves the problem of specific Pokemon 'losing' their signature moves when newly-introduced Pokemon are also able to learn that move. Well, not every Pokemon can keep a move all to itself, (Hell, even Ditto shares Transform with Mew!) but Grovyle and Sceptile would be able to 'reclaim' Leaf Blade from Victreebel, Bellossom, Leafeon and Gallade. The other guys can still use it, but not as effectively as the Pokemon who created the technique.

I doubt they will ever implement this, but I think it would be a good idea if carefully tweaked.

Thoughts? Opinions?

I htink tis should only be applied to pathetic pokémon. Letting farfetech'd get 2x power with leaf blade would be awesome, letting metagross get 1.5x EXTRA with meteor mash would just be crazy, choice band metagross would be so broken.

 

[Togechu]

I htink tis should only be applied to pathetic pokémon. Letting farfetech'd get 2x power with leaf blade would be awesome, letting metagross get 1.5x EXTRA with meteor mash would just be crazy, choice band metagross would be so broken.

This. Imagine, if you will, Quick Claw Rampardos' Head Smash or Mewtwo's Psychic(I like to think that's his signature move). You're looking at a huge gamebreaker, even more so if you Skill Swap with Hihidaruma. Still, I'd like to see this, just to make the battles more fast-paced.

 

[RudolphMilotic]

If you can make Dig work I say use it. The only reason people use Bounce on Gyarados is because it get's STAB and a chance to paralyze. Other then that 2 turn moves suck. If you really want to take a chance and give your opponent a free turn, go ahead but just know you can't do that every single game.

In Double Battles, two-turn moves are a good way to scout if your opponent's Pokémon have Protect/Detect and they are a much better option to attack, giving that your opponent can't know which one of his/her two Pokémon will be hit. So, they don't completely suck: not all people play Singles and with Generation V focusing more in Double and the new Triple Battles, two-turn attacks will have more chances to shine.

And remember, Game Freak doesn't really care about the Metagame.

Completely untrue and unfounded: Last time I checked, the Flat Battle feature of HGSS was included in the games with the sole purpose of facilitate battling with any other person regardless of whether they had Level 100 Pokémon or not. Nonetheless, some Pokémon like Kyogre and Groudon received moves oriented towards 2-on-2 battles, just in time to coincide with the new rules the Video Game Championships were about to implement, allowing the use of Legendary Pokémon.

Now, in the case of Black & White, Stealth Rock is no longer a TM and you can't transfer items via PokéShifter (likely because of the new TM system) from DPtHGSS so I guess Game Freak is thinking perfectly where the metagame (1-on-1) will be going with this 'restriction', giving that there are a pretty good number of new Ice, Bug and Fire-type Pokémon in Isshu and just 4 evolutionary families, two of them from past-generations, learn the move by level-up. Besides, the new Archeopteryx-fossil Pokémon has a high Base Stat Total (567) with an ability that allegedly halves its stats when its HP lowers to 50% or less thus you can think they were aware of this (among other things) and decided not to make Roost again a TM.

 

[NiiKo]

And remember, Game Freak doesn't really care about the Metagame. That's a fan thing. The point I'm trying to make is this: Learning new moves is great and all, but sometimes there's a move that a Pokemon is basically created around, (Diglett - Dig; Meowth - Pay Day and it seems odd to me that ridding said Pokemon of that move is the only way for that Pokemon to be his or her best. That's all.

Metagame=Competitive Battling practically, and GameFreak really cares about it, otherwise they wouldn't have revamped the IV and EV mechanics in Gen III and then give us stuff like the Macho Brace which is almost useless and meaningless to the casual player, also in Emerald they added the berries that lower EVs and the Battle Frontier (where you're gonna get raped if you don't learn about the game). The Physical/Special split was made for competitive battling also.

And as many have said, most Pokémon that have signature moves are good already and/or are too powerful as they are. Most Legendaries have signature moves, giving them a boost is just too much..(Lugia's Aeroblast with a boost??? Holy crap). Also not all Pokémon need to be useful at Battling, some of them are made to be HM slaves (Looking to you Bibaderp), showing the programmers l33t skillz (Hello Unown and all alternate formes), filler, fodder, connection to a certain item (Luvderp) and options for good players that look for a new challenge.

 

[siburke939]

also dugtrio is fast & with arena trap it can dig first turn (who uses EQ against a dugrio? not many people) & get a good hit in so it could work...

...it could also be stalled out with protect though

 

[NiiKo]

also dugtrio is fast & with arena trap it can dig first turn (who uses EQ against a dugrio? not many people) & get a good hit in so it could work...

...it could also be stalled out with protect though

Well if this Signature Move thing would be true and someone sends out a Dugtrio I would immediately expect Dig and use EQ. As you said Protect rapes Dig, also I'd have a free turn to use Double Team or even use Agility/Trick Room and next turn use EQ before Dugtrio moves.

 

[pikmin]

lol, double team. In competitive pokémon, dig sucks. If luke gets an agility off or scizor a swords dance, the match could be over.

 

[RudolphMilotic]

lol, double team. In competitive pokémon, dig sucks. If luke gets an agility off or scizor a swords dance, the match could be over.

Yeah, because people like only Single Battles and the 'metagame' merely cares about 1-on-1 matches...

 

[siburke939]

Well if this Signature Move thing would be true and someone sends out a Dugtrio I would immediately expect Dig and use EQ. As you said Protect rapes Dig, also I'd have a free turn to use Double Team or even use Agility/Trick Room and next turn use EQ before Dugtrio moves.

well to be honest i think the "sig move" thing is a terrible idea - even if dugtrio became immune to EQ while digging it would still be set up bait

 

[DRaB]

Completely untrue and unfounded: Last time I checked, the Flat Battle feature of HGSS was included in the games with the sole purpose of facilitate battling with any other person regardless of whether they had Level 100 Pokémon or not.

Metagame=Competitive Battling practically, and GameFreak really cares about it, otherwise they wouldn't have revamped the IV and EV mechanics in Gen III and then give us stuff like the Macho Brace which is almost useless and meaningless to the casual player, also in Emerald they added the berries that lower EVs and the Battle Frontier (where you're gonna get raped if you don't learn about the game). The Physical/Special split was made for competitive battling also.

I stand corrected. Thank you both for clarifying this for me.

And as much as I appreciate the correction, I feel that the point of what I was saying has been lost. I'll repeat it so nobody has to flip to the previous page and scroll around for it.

The point I'm trying to make is this: Learning new moves is great and all, but sometimes there's a move that a Pokemon is basically created around, (Diglett - Dig; Meowth - Pay Day and it seems odd to me that ridding said Pokemon of that move is the only way for that Pokemon to be his or her best. That's all.

I agree with Pikmin and Koopa-Paratroopa, though. Extremely powerful Pokemon getting this bonus would be quite broken. But where do you place the cutoff? We can all agree that Farfetch'd is pathetic and Metagross is strong, but what are the criteria by which you would boost certain Pokemon and not others? Would the bonus be a number divided by the Pokemon's BST, allowing Farfetch'd to get a larger bonus than Metagross?

And let's get off of Dig for a minute. Clearly, you have determined that Dig is not the best example, but it still provides incentive for more casual players to keep the move that Diglett and Dugtrio are practically designed around. It's not suitable for competitive play. I get it. But there ARE other signature moves that might be more fitting to this situation.

 

[siburke939]

I stand corrected. Thank you both for clarifying this for me.

And as much as I appreciate the correction, I feel that the point of what I was saying has been lost. I'll repeat it so nobody has to flip to the previous page and scroll around for it.

The point I'm trying to make is this: Learning new moves is great and all, but sometimes there's a move that a Pokemon is basically created around, (Diglett - Dig; Meowth - Pay Day and it seems odd to me that ridding said Pokemon of that move is the only way for that Pokemon to be his or her best. That's all.

I agree with Pikmin and Koopa-Paratroopa, though. Extremely powerful Pokemon getting this bonus would be quite broken. But where do you place the cutoff? We can all agree that Farfetch'd is pathetic and Metagross is strong, but what are the criteria by which you would boost certain Pokemon and not others? Would the bonus be a number divided by the Pokemon's BST, allowing Farfetch'd to get a larger bonus than Metagross?

And let's get off of Dig for a minute. Clearly, you have determined that Dig is not the best example, but it still provides incentive for more casual players to keep the move that Diglett and Dugtrio are practically designed around. It's not suitable for competitive play. I get it. But there ARE other signature moves that might be more fitting to this situation.

a better idea may be extra hold items that help said pokemon:

"big wallet" triples meowth's payday attack when held

"miner's helmet" makes dugtrio invulnerable during dig & doubles power /or/ makes dig a 1 turn move for dugtrio

etc...

maybe? :-/