Mafia TWR Season '16 Mafia - 9/5/16 - ENDGAME: Everybody Was Elieson... before War Room Day (TOWN WIN)

[Alex Kaz]

Well shit xD
Shame that I have to make this post sooner than I hoped..
Anyway, lesson learned. Thought it would be okay to quote the role PM since I was asked to quote my NAs, but I learned the hard way that this is not the case I blame HumanDawn for that!

@Zexy @TheCapsFan Thank you guys for hosting this amazing game. This is honestly the best mafia game I've ever played.

@jdthebud jd thanks for recommending me as a sub mate

@everyone Nice meeting you all guys! Will definitely stick around for more.

 

[Elieson]

That's literally the biggest stress reliever because again, literally everybody wins

Tomorrow, town can mislynch then scum and I can crossfire for a Town&Mafia universal victory.

@Alex Kaz stick around friend, you've been a blast to game with and I'd love to have you in another game.

 

[jdthebud]

@Alex Kaz ouch I was looking forward to a solo SK win for the first time in my Mafia history.

@Elieson you are taking aim tonight, yes?

In any case it's going to come down to you or jack for the final scum lynch.

 

[Elieson]

@Alex Kaz ouch I was looking forward to a solo SK win for the first time in my Mafia history.

@Elieson you are taking aim tonight, yes?

In any case it's going to come down to you or jack for the final scum lynch.

Yea

I outlined it already; I'll take aim so I can't whiff tomorrow. Mafia can claim tomorrow it literally doesn't matter since the town & mafia wincons outright declare it as a thing that they can win together. Town can either just lynch mafia for the solo win or we can mislynch + Crossfire for ultra victory and if anybody doesn't want that then I really don't know what the big deal is.

Also there's no assurance you're town yet champ, cool your jets. I know you could say the same for me but that means you have to come up with justification for how the wincon can possibly achieve a combined victory if you believe town has no method of kill power that can also keep them from dying. Oblivion Wing!HD could redirect a kill back to mafia or whoever but basically that player is immune to nightkills on the night they use it, and even if scum!role thief absorbed my shot or Alex's shot, and fired it in conjunction with their factional kill, there would be no way for scum to fire and kill themselves plus town. Even if Alex was still around, there's no possible way that Alex could kill the last player to fulfill his wincon and also get killed himself to give Mafitown the combined win.

1 Lunaala; TheCapsFan (Fire Emblem Protagonist Mafia) - Spy - Killed Night 3
2 Midorikawa; Life (One Piece: Alabasta Mafia) - Tracker - Killed Night 2
3 Elieson; Zexy (Video Games Mafia) - 1x Lightningrod - Killed Night 1
4 Slife; Alex Kaz Molten Eevee (Murder, She Wrote) - Jasmine Veila - Modkilled Night 5
5 HumanDawn; Eye Gel (Pokemon XY Mafia) - 1x Oblivion Wing - Killed Night 4
6 Sunsette; Elieson (Super War Room Mafia Mafia) - Musician - Lynched Day 5
7 Soulmaster; Doctor Floptopus (Masters of the Whoniverse) - Vote Stacker - Lynched Day 2
8 Molten Eevee; Maniacal Engineer (It's All About ME Mafia) - Jester - Lynched Day 3 - WON THE GAME!
11 Elementar; returnofmastercrazyhand (Random Messages Mafia) - Jack-Of-All-Trades - Lynched Day 4
13 Calvin ッ leetic (US Presidential Election 2016 Mafia) - Bus Driver - Killed Night 4
14 returnofmastercrazyhand Slife (True Lust: Intergalactic Battle of the Ships) - Nymphomaniac - Commited Suicide Night 1
16 Doctor Floptopus; Soaringdylan (Monty Python Mafia) - 1x Seraph Knight - Lynched Day 1

To work with the Combined Win, the only flipped roles here that can kill or adjust how a kill works are the bolded

Jasmine is a SK kill, meaning that they're just an additional shot, and Jasmine existing period means that it's Anti-Mafitown by premise of the faction. It would need to function in the same method as I highlighted above*. This alone can't realistically create the Combined Win without the possibility of the Jack role.
Jack of all trades* had the Role Thief, meaning that one way this universal death could've happened is if they absorbed a shot from me/Jasmine, and then on a night like I described where it's 1/1/1, they would have to fire it at the SK and Town, while the SK fired at him.
Driver redirect kills. However, driver doesn't protect anyone, but still requires that an equal number of kills exist for however many players are alive and to my knowledge, + 1 (I asked the mod), they can't Self-target, meaning that they'd need a complex scenario to exist with two shots to redirect, plus a shot on themselves, to even force something like this kill scenario to happen. Even after that, one kill would have to happen on the driver and two kills would haev to happen elsewhere, so that all three are shooting themselves. This basically can't happen unless Jasmine is around, and it's redundant anyway since the cross-shoot being driven would still result in a cross-shoot, and the driver would still need to be targeted by an individual third kill.
Oblivion Wing protects themselves while they're redirecting the kill, so they can't contribute to the combined wincon because they can't die at the same time as non-town.

It's realistically only possible for a Non-Mafia to kill a Mafia, and the SK's wincon conflicts in that, meaning that a secondary source of a kill to come from the Role Thief stealing a shot from Jasmine and then firing at Jasmine & the last living Town at the same time, while Jasmine kills Mafia (resulting in Jasmine losing no matter what, which is extremely unfair towards their wincon to be put in this scenario as they literally can't do anything about it, as we just saw via modkill), or from a Dedicated shot from some other source [town] killing mafia, the realistic possibility. Oblivion Wing and Driver really can't do anything due to their mechanical functionality.

jdthebud (Vanilla)
Elieson (Pumpkin)
Eye Gel (Innocent)
jackatlasred (Singer)

Sketcher is in this game from Lunaala's spy reveal, and since the Sketcher doesn't have any other weird sacrificial powers (that I know of, unless it was added into this game, which I hiiiighly doubt), one of Not-Eye Gel is lying. I don't think that the combined wincon is this impossible to achieve, because it had to be thought of as a realistic possibility. It explains Alex CC'ing me (unless you think that Alex and I both fakeclaimed Pumpkin even now after we're confirmed to be on different alliances) and it explains the possibility of achieving the combined wincon where everybody dies (explained many times already). IMO scum has to be between JD and Jack because if scum is me then there's not really any other way that this combined win can even happen bar the sacrifice of the ITP to the two majorities. Even if I was scum!Pumpkin, that means that I should have 2 methods of kill and the game would basically be over right now if my % wouldn't whiff, which means that I would've had to fire my shot every night and whiffed 4 times now on additional kills, or taken aim to reduce my chances of hitting town to 25% before firing, implying that my role only existed as a mafia hard-counter to the SK (which we already saw the scum hooker flip), making things even more unfair for the SK.

 

[Elieson]

tl;dr SK's modified-from-its-original wincon pretty much prevents the "Everybody wins" scenario, and makes it complete BS that they would effectively need to suicide in order to make the combined Mafitown wincon actually work, and that'd be a terrible thing to build into the game. If you can think of a more practical way for this combined wincon to happen fairly, please share it because I've been wrapping my head around this idea for hours and I might just be missing something obvious by now

 

[Zexy]

Spoiler

9 @jdthebud;
10 @Elieson;
12 @Eye Gel;
15 @jackatlasred;

"With both mafia mastermind Elieson and Serial Killer Molten Eevee gone, this killing game can finally end! AND WE FOUR SURVIVED!"
"Congratulations to all of us, and thank you for leading us through these tough times, Calvin."
"I am glad I survived, but I cannot feel happy for this... we still lost too many good friends and nice hosts. The least we can do is give them a proper memorial ceremony."
"For all we know the game might not be over yet, though. Not to mention we are all tired. We should go to bed now and do it tomorrow... if all of us are still alive then."

The four survivors thus called it a night, hoping that it was all over. But it wasn't, as their leader, Calvin, was found dead the next morning.

Dear Eye Gel, you are representing Calvin and Battle of Hogwarts. Calvin began his mafia career at the end of Season '15, This was Calvin's first game as a host, and ended with a scum victory after the last scum managed to survive till the end after both their buddies died in the same phase much earlier.


You are the Public Revealer. You can use this ability from Day 2 onwards. Just PM the hosts that you want to use it and you will be confirmeed as town-aligned in-thread from the hosts as soon as possible.

You are allied with the town and win when all the forces opposing your faction are dead.

"AAAAAARGH! I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE IS ANOTHER KILLER! CALVIN'S DEAD, THE IRONY ... I need to calm down. Alright, there are 3 of us and there's just 1 killer, if both of you were you'd lynch me on the spot. So this is our last chance. We need to think this straight and figure it out. Let's do this for Calvin's sake. We will avenge him!"

Crate Diggah: "You should! Bulbagarden's fate is on the line!"

It is now Day 6. It will last 48 hours (unless shortened).
This IS the last day phase of the game.

 

[Elieson]

Jack I seen you there lurking for hours

##VOTE jackatlasred

I'm aimed and ready.

I personally don't have much of a beef with just throwing out my vote as if we hit scum then town wins and if we hit town then we all win.

I feel like if i look at just the roles, jack is town and jd is scum (vanilla in a role madness game? seriously?). It's tough to really assume for sure though because it was pretty easy to just ride the coastline while everybody yelled at the caught!Elementar and caught!Sunsette. Jack claimed singer at a weird time though and him not being NKd when he could procure info to scum seems off. He probably coasted more over the past few phases than jd did, and jd commented more on the game's situation over jack especially when talking about how Alex would inevitably end up at the conclusion of the game and it's impact to town.

Lynching scum won't upset me but we have a failsafe so I'm not feeling any urgency, especially with the combowin being the worst outcome for town. Scum claiming saves themselves (guys if you have objections again -please share)

While someone might see this as gamethrow, getting lynched or mafia winning causes me to lose, so what other option do I have? And no, my role was not changed, I need to be the last man standing.

I totally missed this in conjunction with his recent "last two standing" claim. Either way, my plans for UNIVERSAL VICTORY were defunct because i totally spaced about his initial wincon claim but him claiming two different wincons would've done him in anyway on a reread since they were both antitown IMO.

 

[Almonds]

RIP ME

 

[jdthebud]

@Elieson Nice try. Keep in mind that there are 16 players for 16 hosts.

Spoiler: revealed hosts list

1 Lunaala; TheCapsFan (Fire Emblem Protagonist Mafia) - Spy - Killed Night 3
2 Midorikawa; Life (One Piece: Alabasta Mafia) - Tracker - Killed Night 2
3 Elieson; Zexy (Video Games Mafia) - 1x Lightningrod - Killed Night 1
4 leetic; Alex Kaz Molten Eevee (Murder, She Wrote) - Jasmine Veila - Modkilled Night 5
5 HumanDawn; Eye Gel (Pokemon XY Mafia) - 1x Oblivion Wing - Killed Night 4
6 Sunsette; Elieson (Super War Room Mafia Mafia) - Musician - Lynched Day 5
7 Soulmaster; Doctor Floptopus (Masters of the Whoniverse) - Vote Stacker - Lynched Day 2
8 Molten Eevee; Maniacal Engineer (It's All About ME Mafia) - Jester - Lynched Day 3 - WON THE GAME!
11 Elementar; returnofmastercrazyhand (Random Messages Mafia) - Jack-Of-All-Trades - Lynched Day 4
13 Calvin ッ leetic (US Presidential Election 2016 Mafia) - Bus Driver - Killed Night 4
14 returnofmastercrazyhand Slife (True Lust: Intergalactic Battle of the Ships) - Nymphomaniac - Commited Suicide Night 1
16 Doctor Floptopus; Soaringdylan (Monty Python Mafia) - 1x Seraph Knight - Lynched Day 1

These are all the remaining hosts from TWR '16 season. Each host hosted just one game in the season, or in the case of frozen.palisades, his other game (True Lust) was represented by Slife:

Pinball Wizard+Sword Master - Christmas Mafia
frozen.palisades - Paragon: Rise of the New Order
DrumBeats - 100 Mafia

Also, the OP seems to confirm that Christmas Mafia is in this game:

Even though the hosts are 17 this game will have only 16 players. That is because 2 of our hosts have only co-hosted a single game together (Christmas Mafia) and the role PM in their case will be joint.

Since the Sketch role does not come from that game, but from 100 mafia, therefore, you must be the last scum.

You can try to CC me or jack but the time to do so was when we claimed our games.

 

[Elieson]

Show me the rule that states as an absolute, that this game is built using exactly one role from one game at a time.

You've got me on Christmas Mafia though. That looks like an unintentional mod-confirmation on how a role would appear, assuming it were in the game.

Also I told you I'm Pumpkin from FBM and if you honestly think I CC'd the guy who claimed the same thing, that you both saw didnt flip Pumpkin, just to get him lynched and ultimately take myself down, then that's your assumption. Rules won't lie. RolePMs won't lie. Even if you're town, it's in the bag. If I were scum, why wouldn't I CC one of your claims, to actually do something to cause a logical 50/50 scenario? I would've had plenty of time to claim Vanilla or CC literally any other role from Christmas Mafia considering I could have literally just said ChristmasMafia!Doctor or something and blended in with less effort. I would've flown under the radar until now and you know it, but I didn't. I claimed a role that doesn't make sense in your mind because you are under the misconception that I'm lying about my role and that our wincon is bullshit, as well as ignoring the fact that for days, it's been the potential "last phase of the game", only possible through additional kills that need to be accounted for, and are, because of Pumpkin.

Explain how your thought on the game's premise vs the actual revealed mafia wincon and town wincon build into one other, unless you're assuming that the established wincons are actually a sham, which is hysterical unless you think that I'm some other third party or something. Explain how you are 100% sure that in this setup, your role, or a vanilla role, belong and have any influence on the game's turnout, lynch urgency via mod post, wincon via game structure and town win/loss potential through mod confirmation.

I'll bite on you maybe not being scum but it doesnt matter because I've outlined exactly how town wins this, which is reinforced by the potenial last phase alert two phases ago.

 

[jdthebud]

@Elieson It was heavily implied in the OP that each host would be represented, and the game was set up with 16 player from the start, so it's not like they cut roles or anything. I guess it's theoretically possible they left out the Christmas mafia roles for balancing reasons, but then why mention it in the OP?

I don't understand most of your post:

for days, it's been the potential "last phase of the game", only possible through additional kills that need to be accounted for, and are, because of Pumpkin.

I was under the impression that Zexy said that because lynching town on D4, and town or SK on D5, could have led to the next day phase being equal mafia/town if the mafia was able to successfully kill a town in the night and avoid being killed themselves. We've just been keeping ahead of that by lynching mafia the last two days. The Pumpkin has not been necessary for the "last day phase" scenario in my mind. Please explain this further.

Explain how your thought on the game's premise vs the actual revealed mafia wincon and town wincon build into one other, unless you're assuming that the established wincons are actually a sham, which is hysterical unless you think that I'm some other third party or something.

What? I don't think you are third party, the phase post confirms we are at 2:1 right now. And what are you talking about with the wincons? Town wincon: "when all the forces opposing your faction are dead". Mafia wincon: "when all the factions opposing you are eliminated". The only thing that stands out to me is that it allows for third party roles, the SK in this case. Not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Explain how you are 100% sure that in this setup, your role, or a vanilla role, belong and have any influence on the game's turnout, lynch urgency via mod post, wincon via game structure and town win/loss potential through mod confirmation.

I don't understand what you are asking here, please clarify.

Finally, what's your explanation for jack claiming Christmas mafia? If he is scum, how did he know he wouldn't be CC'd way back on day 3?

@jackatlasred what's your take on the situation?

 

[Elieson]

@Elieson It was heavily implied in the OP that each host would be represented, and the game was set up with 16 player from the start, so it's not like they cut roles or anything. I guess it's theoretically possible they left out the Christmas mafia roles for balancing reasons, but then why mention it in the OP?

It could've been your role too, in theory, but in terms of play, I'm finding jack scummier. A Vanilla in Role Madness seems kind of uninspired, but I'm thinking that it's in here to just cause doubt, kind of like a Miller. Why not go with 15 games and simply leave out the Vanilla slot, so that no player feels gimped about not having a role? It just seems weird, but too weird to think that it's fake.

I don't understand most of your post:

I was under the impression that Zexy said that because lynching town on D4, and town or SK on D5, could have led to the next day phase being equal mafia/town if the mafia was able to successfully kill a town in the night and avoid being killed themselves. We've just been keeping ahead of that by lynching mafia the last two days. The Pumpkin has not been necessary for the "last day phase" scenario in my mind. Please explain this further.

If you're assuming that I'm scum and/or lying, then there's no other way that the game could have its last day phase if there were only two kills (scum & sk) out on the field, because even after a ML at 5:3:1 and two kills on town overnight at 4:3:1 (the literal worst possible numbers-scenario for town), the driver would have to be included in the mislynched pot and/or the killed pot, otherwise town could still theoretically make a comeback the next day, meaning that the next day would still happen.

What? I don't think you are third party, the phase post confirms we are at 2:1 right now. And what are you talking about with the wincons? Town wincon: "when all the forces opposing your faction are dead". Mafia wincon: "when all the factions opposing you are eliminated". The only thing that stands out to me is that it allows for third party roles, the SK in this case. Not quite sure what you're getting at here.

I know.

Town wins when all opposing factions are dead.
Scum wins when all opposing factions are dead.

Replace dead with eliminated. Same difference.

As I said, this means that town and scum can win together. If you think that this is not possible, then I want you (well, jack, since he doesn't even seem to acknowledge it), to tell me why this is even an element in the game, if it has no actual bearing on a possibility that this game could offer. Why would this be a legit possibility, specifically written into the game, if it wasn't possible in all fairness? How is it possible for town & mafia to die at the same time, giving both sides a possible win? The only way is if town has a kill method to use against mafia's factional kill in a 1:1 scenario. If it wasn't possible, it wouldn't be written into the RolePMs as something that could be possible.

The only town role that exists that can literally do this is my role. Otherwise, why is it even written as such? Wincons would just say "You win when you outnumber all opposing factions" in the mafia wincon, or "You win when your faction achieves unstoppable control over votes and cannot be killed" or something. It'd be specific, emphasizing possibilities. Zexy modified the SK wincon specifically for this game, and you can both look at Alex's flip vs Jasmine's original wincon in MSW and compare them. Town's makes sense as "You are allied with the town and win when all the forces opposing your faction are dead." but why would Mafia's be the same? Mafia could theoretically still be out playing when the game's 1:3, or 3:3 even? Not all faction members of town are dead at this point, it's just assumed that they will be. It implies that something could cause a 1:1 situation to result in both dying at the same time.

If he paid that much attention to a wincon, it's safe to assume that he paid attention to them all and meticulously worded them as he did. If you can give me a reason why he would be so specific about rewriting wincons for one faction and not for others, be my guest.

tl;dr If Zexy paid that much attention to the game's wincons as a whole, there must be a reason for it, and the only logical reason for it is that the game's roles allow it to be possible. The only logical reason for the game's roles to achieve this silly wincon combo win is if town and mafia can off each other at the same time, and the only way that can happen is by my shot.

I don't understand what you are asking here, please clarify.

I'm basically asking jack why he's saying "I don't care about anything else, not the pages or the entirety of D&N 5 nor anything else, OP says this so Elie's automatically scum", when I've given him oodles to look at.

Finally, what's your explanation for jack claiming Christmas mafia? If he is scum, how did he know he wouldn't be CC'd way back on day 3?

Mod-provided Fakeclaim? Sketch artist results offering game-referenced information? I'm not sure really because there is no one definitive surefire answer to that question.

 

[jdthebud]

Thanks for clarifying, I will try to read over the thread again re: your "oodles to look at"

 

[jackatlasred]

@jdthebud the way I see it is ellieson is claiming a role from fruit bowl mafia. This game was hosted by both ME's. We need 16 diffrent hosts from each game, meaning that the role doesn't exist as he claims it does.

At the same time we have the 100 mafia which would have to be you if it's not ellieson. You pick

Vote: ellieson

Plus ellieson wants a mislynch and has been saying that they want it for a while. Plus I don't want a shared win, either I win or lose.

 

[jdthebud]

@Elieson did you ever say what your actions were? Please remind me, thanks.

@jackatlasred I basically think the same way about his Pumpkin claim right now, but I'm gonna do another lookover the thread tomorrow before making my vote.

We have 48 hours to draw the tension o-0-0-00000ut .

 

[Elieson]

@jdthebud the way I see it is ellieson is claiming a role from fruit bowl mafia. This game was hosted by both ME's. We need 16 diffrent hosts from each game, meaning that the role doesn't exist as he claims it does.

At the same time we have the 100 mafia which would have to be you if it's not ellieson. You pick

Vote: ellieson

Plus ellieson wants a mislynch and has been saying that they want it for a while. Plus I don't want a shared win, either I win or lose.

Are you even reading my posts?

Jack I seen you there lurking for hours

##VOTE jackatlasred

I'm aimed and ready.

I personally don't have much of a beef with just throwing out my vote as if we hit scum then town wins and if we hit town then we all win.

I feel like if i look at just the roles, jack is town and jd is scum (vanilla in a role madness game? seriously?). It's tough to really assume for sure though because it was pretty easy to just ride the coastline while everybody yelled at the caught!Elementar and caught!Sunsette. Jack claimed singer at a weird time though and him not being NKd when he could procure info to scum seems off. He probably coasted more over the past few phases than jd did, and jd commented more on the game's situation over jack especially when talking about how Alex would inevitably end up at the conclusion of the game and it's impact to town.

Lynching scum won't upset me but we have a failsafe so I'm not feeling any urgency, especially with the combowin being the worst outcome for town. Scum claiming saves themselves (guys if you have objections again -please share)

It could've been your role too, in theory, but in terms of play, I'm finding jack scummier. A Vanilla in Role Madness seems kind of uninspired, but I'm thinking that it's in here to just cause doubt, kind of like a Miller. Why not go with 15 games and simply leave out the Vanilla slot, so that no player feels gimped about not having a role? It just seems weird, but too weird to think that it's fake.

I don't want a mislynch, and I'm voting for the person I think is scum between the two of you, but I'm saying that if we do mislynch between you and jd, town wins regardless.

I don't want a shared win, either I win or lose.

Assuming only town were to survive at the end of the game, you're sharing with Eevee who already won. You're not even making sense anymore.

@Elieson did you ever say what your actions were? Please remind me, thanks.

@jackatlasred I basically think the same way about his Pumpkin claim right now, but I'm gonna do another lookover the thread tomorrow before making my vote.

We have 48 hours to draw the tension o-0-0-00000ut .

Ya.

N1: leetic submitted nothing [Idled]
N2: Took aim (failed)
N3: Took aim (succeeded)
N4: Shot Alex Kaz (failed, not given a reason why)
N5: Took aim (succeeded)

 

[Elieson]

@jdthebud the way I see it is ellieson is claiming a role from fruit bowl mafia. This game was hosted by both ME's. We need 16 diffrent hosts from each game, meaning that the role doesn't exist as he claims it does.

Plus ellieson wants a mislynch and has been saying that they want it for a while. Plus I don't want a shared win, either I win or lose.

This also means that you acknowledge my role as existing, but at the same time, don't want to acknowledge that it exists.

 

[jackatlasred]

This also means that you acknowledge my role as existing, but at the same time, don't want to acknowledge that it exists.

I acknowledge that you have a role just not what you say it is.

Are you even reading my posts?

Not really cause you keep on saying the same thing, which to be honest I just don't agree with. Plus only cause they say it may exist doesn't mean it necessarily does.

Plus I know town or mafia can't win by themselves anymore so that's more reaon to not let another one win anymore.

 

[Elieson]

Are you planning to give a reason out that calls my logical statements [aka facts] false, or are you just gonna keep pulling an eevee!jester and saying stuff without any factual information?

 

[Elieson]

Seriously

You haven't said a thing to argue that my analysis of the wincons is false, just that you don't want it to be true
You haven't explained why Lunaala's Spy Reveal discovered that someone was being silenced, on the day that I was silenced, especially when the tracker was killed and I could have arguably just faked being silenced, since nobody else has actually been possibly silenced. Why would I as scum -actually get myself silenced, vs faking it to save it-?

You havent explained why I as scum would CC a guy that I would have reasonable purpose to not CC

You haven't explained anything. All you say is "i disagree with you because of this one not-rule stated in the OP, so you're scum" which is both lazy and dismissive.

Town has no reason to do this because literally your refusal to acknowledge and discuss things goes against the wincon of literally every flipped town since the game began,