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Mafia Street Fighter VI Mafia (13P) - INDEP VICTORY

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Elieson said:
Two mid-game alignment flips, one written in a role and one totally surprise.

#Bulbagames
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Technically speaking, the hosts never lied in role PMs about alignment or anything.

I don't think the OP was intentionally misleading either. It may be considered a bastard game in some respects, but the hosts were all explicitly clear in the OP about those potential mechanics within the game.
 
Midorikawa said:
ExLight was OP and the mafia was too weak. Between a spy, traitor, and not knowing each others roles it really hurt us.
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Mafia was strong, in a sense.

ITP was far too strong.

This game certainly qualifies as a Role Madness game. Balance goes out the window when games are built this heavy on roles, because the game goes from Balanced to Swingy and can bounce between the two constantly.

This feature is inherently fun to write on paper, and chaotic but wacky to read about from an outsider's perspective. This is the kind of stuff you love seeing in movies.

Players playing in this though.... well, it's mixed. I won't say much on it, but this game was chaotic to play.

TheCapsFan said:
I don't think the OP was intentionally misleading either.
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I can think of several things that occurred during the game which were misleading, such as
  1. how Mido lost their Deathproof despite having a Bulletproof and a Lynchproof
    1. Priority could explain this, but the night result communicated back to Mido did not confirm anything, which while this doesn't go against the OP, it assumes that a player would willingly inquire about this sort of stuff, which is complicated given how not everyone things like this (take Mao, for example).
  2. Dawning not being added to the list of "Characters" until Day 2, despite being listed as a "Player" in the rules/setup.
    1. This was inherently complicated; flipping terminology implies unique elements of the game or its players. Dawning was and always will have been an informed player. That's not a M.o.D., even though she was behaving as a M.o.D. in the game. Informed players are a thing, but listing them in complicated ways was not necessary.
  3. Alignment Flips
    1. If a Cult is considered bastard, because it changes people's alignments mid-game, then the Mafia in this game was not a Mafia; it was a cult under the label of Mafia, where Mido was a Late 1x Recruiter, and Divergent was still a Traitor, just to a cult.
And to a lesser extent, of the Chaos element of the game...
  1. RolePM stuff
    1. How the existence of a Pumpkin that shoots people, has a chance of success/failure independent of whether it hits a BPV/Aesthetic or not, thereby giving it conflicting results based on what it accomplishes (or doesn't accomplish).
      1. A role thing, though this I'll bite on; I'm just traumatized by percentage based roles even existing, nonetheless being used in games.
    2. The Drunkizer applying another Random-ish element to what they force players to result in.
      1. Again, Mao not understanding how her own role worked, when claiming... could've been a gambit made during the game, or it could've been that the role was too quirky/complicated to understand without additional support.
  2. Players being given a role, and after pushing the button or supplying a loophole to the mod, receiving adjustments to their role
    1. This can essentially cause a RoleCop to be outright incorrect with what they learn depending on what's shared
    2. Mid-game events I suppose aren't inherently bastard.
Not saying that this game was fun or unfun, but it was certainly a game with features worth discussing.
 
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The ITP was IMO too strong because being completely immune to all of towns outs against him sans Lynching.

Cult/afia could've poisoned him I suppose, giving them an edge on the ITP/SK of the game, though with the poisoner dying immediately and also not spitting out a poisondart D1, not like it mattered here.

I believe the objective of the host, was to make a very swingy game. This was indeed just that.
 
mastermind lissi said:
Also to everyone, bold of you to assume I used my bodyguard lol
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I like how so many people constantly assumed that you used it on your neighbro.

There was never a reason for you to do that!

Either you'd have used it on me (the closest thing we had to a cop claim D1), or you'd have idled :D
 
I'm going to let the hosts respond more concretely to you, Elieson, since they can probably do so with more complete understanding of the game and its mechanics, but I will say this in response to the three points you have considered to be misleading:
  • I don't have access to Mido's Role PM (and neither should you, tbh) because I'm not Mido. So I can't speak to that. What I will say is that in games that I've hosted, if a player has a 1x Deathproof, it is lost upon any sort of death trigger. Whether that is being shot by something like a vig, being killed in retaliation to something, like a Paranoid Gun Owner, or being lynched. Deathproof is different from Bulletproof, which only works against vig/mafia shots, and Lynchproof, which only works against lynches.
  • I can't really speak to the whole Dawning as a player not a MoD thing being confusing because by the time I had joined, it was very clear that Dawning was being considered a player in the context of this game. That being said, in the future, I would encourage all hosts NOT to treat their MoD in this way. I understand that in this game Dawning was an independent, but the nature of the MoD is such that they should not have any ties to the game in any fashion - the only way to ensure this is that the MoD is explicitly NOT a player. That's the whole point of the MoD.
  • Alignment changing is not bastard if the player in question knows there is the potential to change alignment at some point during the game. As stated by Divergent in the thread it is a game-related choice for players to decide to share/not share the details of their roles in the Mafia Chat, if they are not explicitly given by the hosts. If the hosts do not share this information, it is a risk to the players that there may be a traitor within their midst. If Divergent's traitor trigger was unknown to them, then I would consider that bastard. But that's neither here nor there. So I would consider this as part of your "chaos" mechanics instead.
 
Also I wanted to say this the entire game I wanted to do this, especially when I got 3 votes:

1711999291618.jpeg
 
Elieson said:
Do you stand in the angle that a Cult is not Bastard then?
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More or less, yes. My opinion on this has varied in the past but here's kinda where I stand at the moment.

I personally consider Bastard to be anything in which the host explicitly lies to the player in something that the player would typically consider to be true axioms. This would include Role PMs, Phase change posts, or something like the announcement of an Innocent Child. So a Framer, for example, who has the ability to alter role PMs, would be bastard.

Mido having a variation of Framer in this instance, would be bastard, even though it is specific to alignment results and not Role PMs. I'd consider it more of a "Millerizer" than a Framer - but, from what I understand, the target player would still not know that they'd have been "millerized." So I'd consider that bastard.

It's probably worth a larger discussion amongst War Room staff as to a clear, concrete definition of what "Bastard" is. Or, a discussion amongst the community at large in something like TSR.
 
TheCapsFan said:
It's probably worth a larger discussion amongst War Room staff as to a clear, concrete definition of what "Bastard" is. Or, a discussion amongst the community at large in something like TSR.
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There could be the creation of a third category, Normal games (self explanatory), chaos games (which this game would fall into), and bastard games (which contain host lying or similar content).
 
Quasar_Catfish said:
There could be the creation of a third category, Normal games (self explanatory), chaos games (which this game would fall into), and bastard games (which contain host lying or similar content).
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This is a solid middle ground, yeah. But I do think codifying more strict definitions for each category would be useful for hosts.
 
Quasar_Catfish said:
There could be the creation of a third category, Normal games (self explanatory), chaos games (which this game would fall into), and bastard games (which contain host lying or similar content).
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I think role madness kinda falls into chaos games too, it might be a better name than chaos games as a section too.

Might be worth adding in what each category of game could be in the players guide too.
 
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