UK Elections

[Lysson]

We are veering off topic so I'll attempt not to join in.

As with everything balance is key. One right infringes another. I take Law at A level and man is it complicated as everything conflicts with each other.

But this is why we have different parties with very different ideologies. It gives people a choice of what they prefer and changes over time. At one point the Conservatives wouldn't have cared less about people with disabilities but now they do. Morals change over time and I am confident that one day animal cruelty would have nearly gone.

Labour and Tory are constantly battling, people in jobs or people without? There are always two sides to everything.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Distasteful though it is, I don't think it's at all just to ban a religious practice that doesn't harm people on the basis that one (That is, the non-specific "you") personally finds it immoral. You could use the same argument to ban homosexuality

Remind me again which of the partners gets his slit throat while he's hung upside down and blood rushes through his lungs causing him to die in agony for an extended period of time?

Cruel animal slaughter rituals are nowhere near similar to homosexuality. 2 consenting adults of the same sex don't harm anyone.
But halal slaughter does cause barbaric and needless suffering to animals, and would fall under animal cruelty if it wasn't protected by this anachronistic umbrella called religion!

Hypothetically:

"I want to ban homosexuality! I don't care that it doesn't affect me and that it doesn't hurt anyone, it's morally wrong!"

"I want to ban ritual slaughter! I don't care that it doesn't affect me and that it doesn't hurt anyone, it's morally wrong!"

Both arguments insist on turning a private act into a criminal offence based on someone else's moral code. I find such slaughter methods uncivilised as well, but I still have no right to impose that on other people, just as there is no justification in forcing me to eat halal

Cruelty to animals has been illegal for a long period of time. It's only when the umbrella of religion is brought in that somehow it's protected.
If I chopped off a part of my newborn son's body I'd rightly be seen as a danger to the child and sent to jail. But if I chop off a part of his body and say well, I believe that my deity told me to do it, then suddenly, well that's ok then.

And actually a society does have the right to have its morals reflected in its law. Try stripping down to a Bikini in Saudi Arabia.

In this country we do have animal rights, animals must be killed in a humane way, I think its wrong for parties in this election to promise to keep an exemption because 5% of the population say that their book tells them its ok. If you are prepared to make an exception for animal rights and child rights, where does it end, what other rights are we as a country prepared to sacrifice in order to cater to religion?
All the progress we've made in this country towards liberalism, equality and humanity are being eroded by religious exemptions.

Take another example the equality act finally abolished discrimination in the provision of goods and services, but when the same sex marriage act was finally passed, inequality was given a free pass back into UK law, as once again religions are excused and are allowed to discriminate in the provision of wedding services.

I believe that the rights of humans come before the rights of animals. Disagree, by all means, campaign for your views, by all means. Democracy is about the majority getting its own way, after all. I am a libertarian and a utilitarian, and I believe in the principal that the state doesn't have the right to interfere with private actions. Equality means that people get to do things you don't like just as you get to do things they don't like - the obvious caveat being that their actions don't affect you and vice versa.

This includes right to marriage. Equality means that a religion doesn't get a monopoly over a word (In this case, the concept of marriage) - at the same time a private individual (In this case, a priest) should not be forced to perform a service they consider morally wrong.

It's on these issues that I've been absolutely in agreement with both the status quo and the Coalition's actions during the last few years

 

[Lysson]

Anyway I now know for certain I will be re-electing my MP regardless of her party. She has a good sense of humour, works hard, has lived life and not an easy one and is an animal lover. The other candidates are pretty meh.

 

[dig]

My local area is a bit of a Labour Stronghold - 44% of votes last election. I think the rise of the SNP may make a huge dent in Labour, but wouldn't be surprised if Labour won my area.

We have all the common parties running in my area - Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Green & UKIP. Labour has won every election since 1983, but maybe this year'll be different. It's honestly hard to say, we're historically Labour but with a good chunk of votes for Conservatives. We voted No and it wasn't particularly close. However, my area is hardly going to be the decisive location of the general election. Still voting SNP til I'm convinced otherwise, which is unlikely at this point.

 

[Joshawott]

Considering my general allegiance to the left-side of politics, it depresses me that my constituency has been an unshakable Conservative strong-hold since before my parents even met. I voted for the Liberal Democrats during the 2010 election but after the stunt they pulled with the coalition and tuition fees, there's no way they're ever getting my vote again.

I've spent the last few months trying to figure out which party should receive my vote in next month's election and after tonight's TV debate, I think I've finally come close to making my decision. As an Englishman I am jealous that I can't vote for the SNP considering the brilliant work they have done in Scotland, so I thought the next best thing would be the Greens. However, during tonight's debate I was given the impression that the party has too much idealism and not enough realism to drive the country forward.

I must confess that during the opposition debate, I actually found myself agreeing with Nigel Farage on the subject of immigration but due to our membership in the European Union, the implementation of things like an Australia-style border control would mean little as it wouldn't be able to do anything about the majority of migration into the country, unless of course, UKIP's titular policy of the United Kingdom being independent from the EU were to happen; which I think would be more catastrophic for us than the alternative.

There's only really one outcome I can see for this election if things carry on the way they have: a minority Labour government that receives the support of the SNP on a case-by-case basis. Even if they win the most seats, without an outright majority I can't see a minority Conservative government receiving the approval of the House of Commons due to the large stake the SNP will more than likely win in the Scottish constituencies. Miliband has however ruled out a formal coalition with the SNP, hence the minority Labour government.

So ultimately, the only vote that makes sense for me is Labour.

 

[Saucedo]

Considering my general allegiance to the left-side of politics, it depresses me that my constituency has been an unshakable Conservative strong-hold since before my parents even met. I voted for the Liberal Democrats during the 2010 election but after the stunt they pulled with the coalition and tuition fees, there's no way they're ever getting my vote again.

I've spent the last few months trying to figure out which party should receive my vote in next month's election and after tonight's TV debate, I think I've finally come close to making my decision. As an Englishman I am jealous that I can't vote for the SNP considering the brilliant work they have done in Scotland, so I thought the next best thing would be the Greens. However, during tonight's debate I was given the impression that the party has too much idealism and not enough realism to drive the country forward.

I must confess that during the opposition debate, I actually found myself agreeing with Nigel Farage on the subject of immigration but due to our membership in the European Union, the implementation of things like an Australia-style border control would mean little as it wouldn't be able to do anything about the majority of migration into the country, unless of course, UKIP's titular policy of the United Kingdom being independent from the EU were to happen; which I think would be more catastrophic for us than the alternative.

There's only really one outcome I can see for this election if things carry on the way they have: a minority Labour government that receives the support of the SNP on a case-by-case basis. Even if they win the most seats, without an outright majority I can't see a minority Conservative government receiving the approval of the House of Commons due to the large stake the SNP will more than likely win in the Scottish constituencies. Miliband has however ruled out a formal coalition with the SNP, hence the minority Labour government.

So ultimately, the only vote that makes sense for me is Labour.

lol as soon as you said left wing upset with Lib dems over tuition fees I knew you were saying you'd go to Labour.
I am Pro Eu and I want it reformed and if there was a vote I'd want to stay in, but one thing that really ticks me off is people (no offence) who talk Britain down, and say how we'd undergo some cataclysmic disruption if we left the EU. We overtook France the other day to be the world's fifth biggest economy, and 2nd biggest in the EU. Do you really think people would stop trading with us if we were to leave. Of The 20 biggest economies in the world, only 6 are in the EU, the other 14, get along fine. South Korea (13th) has a free trade deal with the EU, and has none of the restrictions or open borders, I'm sure we could negotiate the same.

As for the SNP I'm really unsure how to judge them. They seem to actually doing a pretty good job of governing Scotland, on a fixed budget they can't go over. I do wonder if they could do the same for all UK. The only thing I dislike about them is atm they do seem to want to demand more and more for Scotland at the expense of England, and even more so to Wales, and also their position on Trident, we need a strong deterrent to stop Russia, North Korea, Iran, Isis etc from getting any ideas about pressing the button, and they seem to want to throw away our shield right at the moment we could be on the bring of war.

 

[Beth Pavell]

At the very least leaving the EU entirely would be diplomatically awkward. Not being in the Euro caused problems during the crisis, with the other Eurozone countries essentially arguing that since Britain isn't in the Eurozone it doesn't get to have a say about it. Not being in the EU, I think, would result in the same problem. We certainly could do with arguing more with what Britain's membership of the EU means, because I've got a feeling that the rest of Europe benefits more from our membership than the other way round

I'm not sure what to make of the SNP. It's relatively easy to make the kind of promises the SNP tends to when you can blame any failures on Westminster. I'm fully on board with their plans regarding Trident - it's not a shield, it's a status symbol. Only those ISIS maniacs would be stupid enough to think that even threatening the use of a nuclear weapon is a good idea - and then I have to question how easy it is to launch one at all. Any idiot can fire an AK47. I doubt it's that easy to launch an ICBM

 

[Joshawott]

Considering my general allegiance to the left-side of politics, it depresses me that my constituency has been an unshakable Conservative strong-hold since before my parents even met. I voted for the Liberal Democrats during the 2010 election but after the stunt they pulled with the coalition and tuition fees, there's no way they're ever getting my vote again.

I've spent the last few months trying to figure out which party should receive my vote in next month's election and after tonight's TV debate, I think I've finally come close to making my decision. As an Englishman I am jealous that I can't vote for the SNP considering the brilliant work they have done in Scotland, so I thought the next best thing would be the Greens. However, during tonight's debate I was given the impression that the party has too much idealism and not enough realism to drive the country forward.

I must confess that during the opposition debate, I actually found myself agreeing with Nigel Farage on the subject of immigration but due to our membership in the European Union, the implementation of things like an Australia-style border control would mean little as it wouldn't be able to do anything about the majority of migration into the country, unless of course, UKIP's titular policy of the United Kingdom being independent from the EU were to happen; which I think would be more catastrophic for us than the alternative.

There's only really one outcome I can see for this election if things carry on the way they have: a minority Labour government that receives the support of the SNP on a case-by-case basis. Even if they win the most seats, without an outright majority I can't see a minority Conservative government receiving the approval of the House of Commons due to the large stake the SNP will more than likely win in the Scottish constituencies. Miliband has however ruled out a formal coalition with the SNP, hence the minority Labour government.

So ultimately, the only vote that makes sense for me is Labour.

I am Pro Eu and I want it reformed and if there was a vote I'd want to stay in, but one thing that really ticks me off is people (no offence) who talk Britain down, and say how we'd undergo some cataclysmic disruption if we left the EU. We overtook France the other day to be the world's fifth biggest economy, and 2nd biggest in the EU. Do you really think people would stop trading with us if we were to leave. Of The 20 biggest economies in the world, only 6 are in the EU, the other 14, get along fine. South Korea (13th) has a free trade deal with the EU, and has none of the restrictions or open borders, I'm sure we could negotiate the same.

As for the SNP I'm really unsure how to judge them. They seem to actually doing a pretty good job of governing Scotland, on a fixed budget they can't go over. I do wonder if they could do the same for all UK. The only thing I dislike about them is atm they do seem to want to demand more and more for Scotland at the expense of England, and even more so to Wales, and also their position on Trident, we need a strong deterrent to stop Russia, North Korea, Iran, Isis etc from getting any ideas about pressing the button, and they seem to want to throw away our shield right at the moment we could be on the bring of war.

I'm not "looking down" on the United Kingdom; that's Nicola Sturgeon's job. We could survive without being in the European Union but there are far more benefits from staying in than leaving. There is the possibility that we could negotiate similar trade agreements with non-EU states but that isn't our only benefit from being in the EU.
I agree with you that the European Union is in desperate need of reform, but if we leave the Union we lose our say in that, even if we were to remain a part of the European Economic Area.

While the possibility of another referendum would rest entirely with Westminster loaning the powers to Holyrood, if Westminster pulls the United Kingdom out of the European Union, that could very well trigger calls for another referendum on Scottish Independence, considering how pro-EU the ruling Scottish National Party are. An England without Scotland or the EU would be weaker than one with both.

lol as soon as you said left wing upset with Lib dems over tuition fees I knew you were saying you'd go to Labour.

Because the only other left-wing options would be a wasted vote to the honest. I thought the message of the Greens was a positive one but during the debates, I was left feeling that while they had great ideals, they just weren't realistic.

 

[Jolene]

As an outside observer, I get a rather spiteful impression from Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. Since they lost the referendum in which they were voraciously separatist, they suddenly want to govern the same country they were so intent on dismantling. This is the impression I get from the debates. I just hope if they enter some kind of coalition with Labour (which seems most likely at this point) they will work for the national interest and not just Scotland's.

I'm still baffled how you guys broke Duverger's law.

 

[ii kanji]

Ooooh I'm glad there's a thread for this!

This is my first election and I'm finding that the first past the post system leaves me in an absolute catch 22. I want to vote Labour because I'm strongly against another Tory government and I don't trust the Lib Dems not to go back into coalition with the Tories. I'm eligible to vote in one of two constituencies, but Labour would never win in either. My home constituency is a Lib Dem fortress and it's probable that either the Libs or Tories will win in my uni town. I know we're urged not to vote tactically, but what's the damn point of voting for a candidate who has no chance?

As for the possibilities of UKIP or SNP having any influence... Honestly the mind boggles. I just hope whoever has to form a coalition in the worst case scenario does so with the Lib Dems and not either of these parties!!

 

[Beth Pavell]

Vote for who you want, not for who you think will win, because you can never know for sure quite how the results will turn out. Besides, the candidates will be looking at the numbers, too. A sudden sharp fall in votes in an apparently safe constituency makes a candidate worried about how safe it'll be the next time around

As far as the SNP is concerned, well, why shouldn't they want to try and govern the UK? No-one's going to swallow another referendum for a long time, so might as well get involved with the country as it is rather than sulking about the loss

 

[Rainbow Cloud]

I hope the SNP aren't involved in any coalition as they want to break up the country and only care about Scotland, they wouldn't govern in the best interests of everyone in the UK. Idealy, if neither the Conservatives or Labour have a majority then the two of them should find a way to overcome their childish differences and work together to find some common ground; as then we'd have a government that does represent the views of majority of the country. It will never happen though as they hate each other too much and will always let their pride get in the way.

 

[Saucedo]

I hope the SNP aren't involved in any coalition as they want to break up the country and only care about Scotland, they wouldn't govern in the best interests of everyone in the UK. Idealy, if neither the Conservatives or Labour have a majority then the two of them should find a way to overcome their childish differences and work together to find some common ground; as then we'd have a government that does represent the views of majority of the country. It will never happen though as they hate each other too much and will always let their pride get in the way.

I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility. Back in 2010, all the experts said Libs would team up with Lab, they'd never go with Conservatives as Libs are left wing, some Libs see themselves as more left than Labour etc, Libs are progressive. Even David Cameron admitted in an interview he told his wife after the election they could "beat this new Lib Lab government" expecting to remain in opposition. In Ireland and Germany, their Labour parties are in coalition with their Conservative parties, and here in the UK there was a Con/Lab coalition in the war.

A lot of the hate is put on. A lot of MPs are actually friendly with other MPs from other parties. But they hype up the vitriol and differences in public to get people to vote.
I remember reading how the Labour party and Conservative parties only remain the main 2 because each one paints the other as a bogeyman and says, Vote X to keep Y out. In reality, if it came down to it however they actually could work together quite well, just look at the Better Together Campaign.

 

[dig]

Labour & SNP coalition is looking increasingly more likely, especially given the Ashcroft poll which suggests that SNP may just grab all those Scotland seats, which is frankly astonishing and probably unlikely. As far I'm concerned anything over 30 is a huge win for SNP, and they're set to get a bit more than that, anyway we'll just have see how it comes.

Predicitions -

Labour wins marginally, partners with SNP, perhaps also smaller fringe parties like Green or Plaid Cymru. Conservatives will also win many seats but not enough to make a majority, and coalitions with Lib Dem and DUP may not provide enough seats. The UKIP threat will be overstated, one or two seats at best and I don't see Lab/Tory partnering with them, their political poison.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I don't know, I think people still put more store in the party leaders than they should - and Ed Milliband is now what you'd call a statesmanly figure. It's possible that Labour might squeak in with a win - this election is all over the place, frankly , so who the hell knows - but I still think a Conservative win will be more likely. I would be surprised if UKIP doesn't do well for itself, relative to the party's size. Nige seems to be finally losing steam, incidentally, the man's put up a stubborn fight

 

[dig]

I'm still not convinced that UKIP will get much, it feels like the media are pushing them ahead as some sort of boogey monster to make other parties look a bit better by comparison. Farage is a blithering idiot. I'm not convinced that the post-debate opinion polls saying Farage has done well and they intend to vote UKIP are completely future-proof - many floating voters become convinced by one smaller party, only to vote for a more likely winner come election day. I expect a few SNP voters will end up voting Labour anyway.

 

[Lysson]

Online polls I find are sort of useless as it's mostly young people who use it so it's usually biased and they are never really that accurate considering online polls for the Scottish referendum were quite heavily leaning yes but on results day it was a no. Traditional voters usually don't bother will polls either unless they really love their party they're loyal to and I doubt polls take them into consideration.

 

[dig]

Yeah, there's always a degree of misrepresentation of polls, at the end of the day they can only be an indication of voting habits of a number of people - and simply cannot fully reflect how everyone else'll vote.

 

[Saucedo]

I'm still not convinced that UKIP will get much, it feels like the media are pushing them ahead as some sort of boogey monster to make other parties look a bit better by comparison. Farage is a blithering idiot. I'm not convinced that the post-debate opinion polls saying Farage has done well and they intend to vote UKIP are completely future-proof - many floating voters become convinced by one smaller party, only to vote for a more likely winner come election day. I expect a few SNP voters will end up voting Labour anyway.

I think the most UKIP can expect is 4, in order of likelihood (Clacton, South Thanet, Rochester, and maybe at a push Thurrock) but actually it's quite possible they only keep Clacton (Carswell is personally popular there, he could stand for Monster Raving Loony and still get 60% of the vote)

My problem with UKIP is they do offer the odd gem of sense, but then go and spoil it with some nutty statement or policy.
For example I agree with them on an EU referendum (though I personally would vote to stay) and devolution to England, ie an English parliament but then you get the "gays caused the floods" and "I can't stand near black people" and your just like, omfg I could never support a party like that.

As for online polls I agree they are pointless. I've seen some voter comparison sites, and one showed that 43% are backing the Greens. Could Nutty Natalie (It's ok to join ISIS, and everyone gets £4000 a year for free) Bennett really be our next PM??? I don't think so.

 

[dig]

My problem with UKIP is they do offer the odd gem of sense, but then go and spoil it with some nutty statement or policy.
For example I agree with them on an EU referendum (though I personally would vote to stay) and devolution to England, ie an English parliament but then you get the "gays caused the floods" and "I can't stand near black people" and your just like, omfg I could never support a party like that.

That's just it. They're mostly shit with some tiny sparks of intelligence. I don't know how I'd vote in an EU referendum, but I think if there's enough to support to have one, then why not?