Mafia USM Ubers Mafia endgame (Town and Genesect victory)

[Isaac the Investigator]

Also, this game is now the second most active mafia game in Bulbagarden history, overtaking Random Messages Mafia and only being beaten by The 100 Mafia, which is extra impressive considering both those games had 20 players while this one only had thirteen.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

How was the balance? Was the hosting fair?

These setups are among the most difficult to balance of all, and I can tell that you made an effort to get it right. I appreciate that! I do think there are some balance concerns (which I will never complain about -- we lost a member on Day 1; that's not your fault) that you may consider for your next game:

- The town had three separate ways of preventing kills, two of which were automated. A doctor and two bulletproofs, particularly when one of the latter was a cop, is probably too much -- even with a 1-shot strongman in play.

- Two separate players with any cop ability, along with two separate trackers and a backup -- these create a thousand possible permutations of townies confirming one another. It's always dangerous to put those abilities in the hands of multiple people.

- Beyond that, self-confirmation power also existed for both speedchuck and Ereshkigal. This makes their destruction considerably less plausible for mafia teams in the absence of hokey lyncher-driven theories about cults.

- The most important aspect of any closed setup role madness game is that the mafia team will eventually be forced to claim roles. They can either make something up -- an incredibly arbitrary and dangerous prospect without knowing what town roles exist -- or claim their true roles and hope to get away with it (Former chose this method, understandably). I am a rare individual to say this, so others are likely to disagree: I believe that the need to fake claim is itself an inherent imbalance against any mafia team, and that hosts should consider providing fake role claims that can be safely made before the game begins.

What did you enjoy about this game? Did you like the flavor?
(for the players not from Bulbagarden) Did you enjoy playing in this community? Would you play another game here?
4. Finally, would you play another game hosted by leetic/Oricorio?

These all go together. It was fun to play here with you fine folks of Bulbagarden and also the adjacent Zelda forum. Your flavor was fun, leetic, particularly in the role cards themselves, and I am glad to have played. I had enough fun with the game that I was able to just have a good laugh when I got shot and all of my effort was wasted. Oh well!

I'd certainly be willing to play here again whenever time allows it. Likewise, as an administrator at The Syndicate I would be ecstatic to see any of you join us for a game over there soon (we currently have six games in sign ups). I have considered before the prospect of running a formal crossover game between the two sites with one host from each -- it's something we've done a couple times before with great success.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Both of the top two games on Bulbagarden for activity included me.

I've played two games on Bulbagarden.

 

[Sloonei]

Did I set the bulbagarden record for most posts in a game by an individual player?

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Did I mention Jay had a plan to NK Dale N2

It's true! He wasn't doing anything anyway, and I was in a... weird mood. It'd have been a hilarious gambit to attempt -- shooting Dale and claiming 1-shot vigilante. I didn't expect him to be replaced.

I decided against it, because it probably isn't the game Oricorio envisioned or wanted (understandably). Had I done it we'd have both died.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I ended up killing Ereshkigal, because I knew the one town role that could ruin me was a tracker. I wasn't worried about the restless spirit aspect and just wanted to get the tracker outta here.

Alas, a SK could also ruin me.

 

[Sloonei]

So a few questions:

1. How was the balance? Was the hosting fair?

1. Absolutely no complaints about your hosting. Roles were clearly articulated, all my questions were answered effectively, and the flavor was fun.

For balance notes, see Jay's post. My main note would be that town had three protective roles. Only one of them ended up coming into play though, so I don't think that that ended up affecting the outcome too much. The most influential moment in the game was probably the serial killer shooting the godfather, which can happen in any game at any time. Provided that those roles exist.

2. What did you enjoy about this game? Did you like the flavor?

New styles and new faces. I always love being exposed to new ways of looking at the game of mafia, and being able to share my style as well. It keeps things fresh and invigorating. It was really nice to see everything come together the last few phases.

3a. (for the players from Bulbagarden) Do you enjoy having community crossover events like this? Would you like more in the future?
3b. (for the players not from Bulbagarden) Did you enjoy playing in this community? Would you play another game here?
4. Finally, would you play another game hosted by leetic/Oricorio?

I guess I already answered question 3. Yeah I'd play with you all again, and I hope to see even more new faces. Everybody is always welcome at the Syndicate any time as well, of course.
And I would play in every game hosted by leetic that I'm available for.

 

[Sloonei]

Forgot one thing in my response there. The unsung hero of this game, and the thing all of us from the Syndicate enjoyed most was this guy:

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Oricorio, for more balance stuff, you can refer to this big old worksheet I put together for that purpose.

 

[Sloonei]

I misread my role card and thought I had a tracker shot remaining on the last night. I had intended to use it on nova to verify that he was a lyncher, but then leetic pointed out that my role pretty clearly stated that I could only use 2 shots.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ironically, despite the utter decimation of my team, this might have been the best I have been able to fool the folks who know me best in quite some time.

 

[Sloonei]

Ironically, despite the utter decimation of my team, this might have been the best I have been able to fool the folks who know me best in quite some time.

I had the exact same thought at the end of World Flags. I was not even close to suspecting you. I watched you Night 2 because you were my top choice to be nightkilled. I... guess I was right.

 

[bulba account]

I KNEW HE WAS MEGA RAYQUAZA

After I saw that chuck was primal groudon, and JJJ was ultra necrozma and had been killed by "a more powerful pokemon", I knew the SK had to be mega rayquaza. I just didn't think that flavor would be a rational argument for a lynch

 

[Snowy]

Oh shoot there's night talk that's extremely beneficial

so I won't discount the possibility of bussing but ultimately I hope eevee can use this game as a learning tool to improve their ability to appear towny in the future

Now that this is over, I can comment on this.

I was appearing extremely towny... But you guys were playing as if it was phase 6 instead of phase 1. You would have lynched me, no matter what. Your weird playstyle makes absolutely no sense to me, and I am definitely not going to learn anything from this game.

 

[bulba account]

Now that this is over, I can comment on this.

I was appearing extremely towny... But you guys were playing as if it was phase 6 instead of phase 1. You would have lynched me, no matter what. Your weird playstyle makes absolutely no sense to me, and I am definitely not going to learn anything from this game.

it seems clear now that some people familiar with you were town reading you... but when you're reading people over essentially nothing it really feels fabricated. You have to put in the work to actually show that certain things are causing you to lean players each way. If you play on any new forums and try giving the same kind of read ("I dunno, they just kinda seem towny I guess") chances are you will be lynched for it just because it appears you arrived at that conclusion artificially.

 

[Snowy]

Instinct and gut feelings can't be explained.

You got lucky with your bad play in that I was actually scum, but you could have easily lynched the doctor. For no reason.

You also expected me to have the entire game solved before the RVS had even ended... which again, makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Ereshkigal]

1. How was the balance? Was the hosting fair?

Balance was good. As usual on Bulbagarden, the major balance issue is the players, not the game design. Decisions were fair.

2. What did you enjoy about this game? Did you like the flavor?

I loved the flavor and the way the roles were designed. It made for an exciting game.

3a. (for the players from Bulbagarden) Do you enjoy having community crossover events like this? Would you like more in the future?

This... is a complex question that has an answer I'm not certain people will be comfortable with.

I was excited about it at the start, but then reality ensued. We had an immediate culture clash that drove off players, and a later severe playstyle clash that required moderation of players. Both of which are likely going to leave lingering bad feelings for at least some involved.

So, to be blunt, I am going to be leery of joining any future games that intentionally mix players from three or more websites as part of the design. I do not believe such was the best way to introduce external playstyles to Bulbagarden, and in fact I know that it has made at least me leery of engaging in games on the other two sites involved. I have some serious questions about how games are conducted at ZD that need resolved as a result of this game, and I do not believe I can ramp up my posting quantity to meet the demands of The Syndicate.

I really think we needed both sites introduced not in the style of this game, but in cases where it is just Bulbagarden and that other site.

4. Finally, would you play another game hosted by leetic/Oricorio?

Sure. Just as long as it's not like this one.

 

[Sloonei]

You also expected me to have the entire game solved before the RVS had even ended... which again, makes absolutely no sense.

I think this is where the playstyle we implemented here messes people up the most. I've seen reactions like this a number of times from people who've not played with me before.

It is never, ever the expectation that anybody should have things totally figured out. Not on Day 1, not on Day 3, not on Day 7. The idea is to have everybody provide their thoughts about the game as completely as they can and as often as they can. I never want anything more than your hunches and opinions. I do not expect fully formed ideas; it would be a hindrance to depend entirely on "fully formed" ideas. Any half-baked notion that you have about another player is worth sharing because it will prompt reactions around you. It does not matter if you are right or wrong, or even if you believe in what you're saying. Saying things enables people to read you, and their reactions enable you to read them. It could just be a single word in someone's post that seems off, or an awkward entry post, or failure to answer a question in its entirety. Any little thing.

As the game progresses, more people say more things. They continue to share opinions and develop their reads and all of this provides more clarity. After a while somebody might say something which does not align with a previous statement, or maybe they'll share a read that doesn't follow a believable line of thought, or maybe they'll just run out of steam (it was this third one which brought me to suspect you).

Conversely, somebody else might make a bunch of posts which demonstrate a clear and convincing development of reads. They might ooze conviction, provide good insight, whatever else, and we can all read them as town (this is what enabled me to trust bulba account for much of the game, and what kept me from suspecting Calvin prior to your flip and my cop check).

The more people talk, the more context is provided to the game. We'll never have the complete picture until it's over, but the more we can put the pieces together, the better our chances of winning. And that's exactly what happened here.

Instinct and gut feelings can't be explained.

I'd also add that I fundamentally disagree with this. I think our "gut reads" always stem from something. It's often the case that we don't realize where the reads originate, but I think we can trace them back if we try. If you're unclear about why a read exists, read the player's posts over again and try to identify the moments that make your lightbulb flicker.

 

[Sloonei]

You definitely kept up. @Ereshkigal. And don't worry- not all of the Syndicate posts at the rate you saw here. But you also didn't see all of our manic posters here either. So... I guess you've got a point. I enjoyed playing with you and think you'd fit in well with the Syndicate crowd.

 

[Snowy]

I'd also add that I fundamentally disagree with this. I think our "gut reads" always stem from something. It's often the case that we don't realize where the reads originate, but I think we can trace them back if we try. If you're unclear about why a read exists, read the player's posts over again and try to identify the moments that make your lightbulb flicker.

Obviously in this case, I did have insider information... but my read on Calvin and Eresh came from experience playing with them... They didn't feel like scum, and I used THAT, not my insider information, to provide my reads and gut feeling. Which is exactly what I stated and was ignored.

Perhaps you are right that it came from somewhere, but if you are right, then that source was experience with these people... That might look like a read that came out of nowhere to you, but those that knew you also provided similar reads based on their experience with you.

It's a gut feeling. Gut feelings have no logic. No rhyme or reason. They just exist. Kinda like when you feel your life is in danger even though it is a quiet night. Instinct cannot be explained.

It is never, ever the expectation that anybody should have things totally figured out.

That is what it appeared to be, and I would have subbed out no matter my role as you guys were just making absolutely no sense.

I feel like you asked me to compose the entire works of Shakespeare on day one... Especially with players that I had never played with before.

I do have to object to the host not replacing me ASAP though, as a player more attuned to your playstyle could have saved the slot.

As the game progresses, more people say more things. They continue to share opinions and develop their reads and all of this provides more clarity. After a while somebody might say something which does not align with a previous statement, or maybe they'll share a read that doesn't follow a believable line of thought, or maybe they'll just run out of steam (it was this third one which brought me to suspect you).

Conversely, somebody else might make a bunch of posts which demonstrate a clear and convincing development of reads. They might ooze conviction, provide good insight, whatever else, and we can all read them as town (this is what enabled me to trust bulba account for much of the game, and what kept me from suspecting Calvin prior to your flip and my cop check).

The keyword here being "As the game progresses"... I remind you that we were still in or just out of the random voting stage.

Now, I will admit that even by bulbagarden standards, I am a bad player. Which is why I have been pressuring @DarthWolf for more mentor games for nearly a year now.

As I said to JJJ in the scum chat (Which was surprisingly quiet after I chose to sub out), I do hope you guys stick around... Maybe we'll play another game again, but I hope you don't lynch me next time simply because I haven't solved the game before the end of the RVS.