Mafia Yu-Gi-Oh! Go Rush Mafia - Endgame, Town + Informant Victory!

[Midorikawa]

It has always been a TWR staple tho, and in the OC days it was even worse since everybody would just give all the info to a single near-cleared town leader at first opportunity.

Nowadays it is only happening either in YLOs (and is still not enough to prevent scum wins) since the setup is designed well enough to not be breakable, or the setup just is breakable no matter when the massclaim happens

When it is not on YLO, it just tends to happen Day 2 as the active roles start talking about invest results or being blocked messages etc. and people want to deny being involved, it is not a conscious decision all at once.

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A solution I might consider for future setups is more roles with even night only modifiers, so there is at least enough time until Day 3 to form natural reads without roles getting in the mix : by then usually 4 ppl have flipped, which for our small games (10-13p) usually either includes at least one scum or brings us to YLO anyway.

Disagree. It’s entirely dependent on the players.

Too many were dropping softclaims on day one unnecessarily. Frankly I think the issue is people are lacking confidence in their ability without roles. Apparently from what I understand from the thread, you were basically screaming “I’m a mason.” When I was masons with Min we were subtle. We made a plan in case one of us died so the other could be cleared. But we did not scream it like you did. Town is relying too much on roleclaims.

And in the OC days, mafia still had a chance. Town leader was wrong as much as right, and there was usually games being played. I’ve been around since 2012 so I’ve done it all. The games then in OC days we’re role heavy so you couldn’t just massclaim and clear. Now the games often have run of the mill roles for everyone, so it’s rare to get an out there role.

Massclaims are a crutch for town because of how games are designed these days.

 

[Zexy]

It has become a bit of a general tip, softclaim too early to be believed later. Problem is more people were willing to out one another's softclaims sooner, usually this should only be happening when someone is close to being lynched. It still is dependent on setup, in the sense that lots of well balanced setups cannot be broken even if everyone does this, we have seen it recently. This one unfortunately was not as such.

Of the 5 games I have played since coming back, this was easily the most tilted: next would be Raven's, but that had arbitrary bastardness to counter-effect it a bit, I mean he literally gave scum a free +1 convert when they were getting stomped, then town a gladiator among evils just because... The other 3 were simply not breakable.

 

[ExLight]

I think it should be part of scum's repertoire to be able to create fake claims that adapt for the situation they're in, which is facilitated by early massclaims

but like, in the current meta when town massclaims it usually completely drifts away from the core of it being a social deduction thing since people start obsessing on how to prove roles mechanically

I enjoy coordinating roles in the late game, but having people DEMAND others to claim D2 is kinda annoying.

 

[Zexy]

I understand your very valid frustration given your position, but we are talking about people who have hosted like twice either, of course they are not getting everything right

My hosting style was more towards crazy unprovable roles, but when it was happening too much, people were complaining too. I feel like sometimes hosts are "damned if you do, damned if you don't". 10+ players invest time and energy in their game, and it just is impossible for everything to work out for everyone every single time, so there is always some backlash Yet they still do their best to bring us an enjoyable game and they should be getting more credit for it...

 

[ExLight]

Raven's game wasn't that tilted, we just had an exceptionally good start by lynching two mafia

 

[ExLight]

I understand your very valid frustration given your position, but we are talking about people who have hosted like twice either, of course they are not getting everything right

I don't think any of us mentioned host experience??

I don't think the setup would be this busted if the players didn't massclaim. A rule forbidding claims in this game would've made it surprisingly balanced imo.

 

[Zexy]

I think it should be part of scum's repertoire to be able to create fake claims that adapt for the situation they're in, which is facilitated by early massclaims

That is my point, with how softing meta is shaping up to be recently, you can no longer rand scum and be like "I will fake claim to adapt when it comes to it". As scum, who wants to play to look like town, you need to "feel" the entire setup immediately based on how stacked the team is and what abilities you think it is designed to counter, and pick (almost take a leap of faith and random guess) something to soft since very early D1, else you are not getting believed.

 

[ExLight]

That is my point, with how softing meta is shaping up to be recently, you can no longer rand scum and be like "I will fake claim to adapt when it comes to it". As scum, who wants to play to look like town, you need to "feel" the entire setup immediately based on how stacked the team is and what abilities you think it is designed to counter, and pick (almost take a leap of faith and random guess) something to soft since very early D1, else you are not getting believed.

scum can't go around softing random shit because if the real role notices it or claims before them then they get in a horrible spot, which is the issue mido had here. So it's still infinitely better to make a claim after getting enough information regarding the setup

and as someone who literally just won as scum with a claim made on the spot I agree to disagree

 

[Zexy]

I don't think any of us mentioned host experience??

I don't think the setup would be this busted if the players didn't massclaim. A rule forbidding claims in this game would've made it surprisingly balanced imo.

Indeed, but only the games by less experienced hosts have been breakable for a few months now, so the correlation it still there unfortunately.

Yup banning hard claims until say Day 3 may be OK, but banning soft claims means nothing if the softs are subtle enough : they do not even have to be words or reactions, they can be something like "I had null on everyone d1 then started town reading someone very hard d2 cuz I am cop and got an inno on them".

 

[Zexy]

scum can't go around softing random shit because if the real role notices it or claims before them then they get in a horrible spot, which is the issue mido had here. So it's still infinitely better to make a claim after getting enough information regarding the setup

and as someone who literally just won as scum with a claim made on the spot I agree to disagree

Sounds like a personal playstyle thing. I mean I know of scum that won like : softed Bomb, then claimed random weapon giver (+/- votes), then changed it to Bulletproof Vanilliser giver, and somehow most ppl thought he was top town

 

[ExLight]

Indeed, but only the games by less experienced hosts have been breakable for a few months now, so the correlation it still there unfortunately.

I've seen much more experienced hosts make games breakable by claims, while it's a factor I still agree with mido that it's like pretty much all on the players

if everyone had agreed to keep claims at a minimum for a while the game could've been much less tilted in towns favor

 

[ExLight]

Sounds like a personal playstyle thing. I mean I know of scum that won like : softed Bomb, then claimed random weapon giver (+/- votes), then changed it to Bulletproof Vanilliser giver, and somehow most ppl thought he was top town

he only got away because my dumbass couldn't read

 

[Zexy]

That is the point tho, it is hard to make a majority agree to stop doing something that helps majority win. Not only is it slight playing against wincon, it is just... unnatural for most people.

Which is why the burden should lie on the host to ensure the game is just not breakable.

 

[Midorikawa]

@Zexy Mafia is a chemistry between the host and the players. The players are as responsible as the hosts. Forcing claims and encouraging early softclaim mania is on the players since it’s clear that’s not how the hosts designed it.

It’s hard to balance a game because depending on players that balance can flip instantly. To put that whole burden on the hosts is just messed up.

Honestly at this rate the hosts are going to have to start providing fake name claims and riel claims to mafia, which I frankly encourage right now because I’ve seen that do wonders. I’ve also had the bad experience of losing because town literally broke the rules and cheated and weren’t punished for it. That was a game where the host, and MOD failed for not punishing them, and the players failed for letting it happen, despite me saying in thread that we warned and to stop. The cheating could have been stopped on either end, or punished properly on either end. It’s both parties that matter.

 

[Zexy]

I am sorry for the rest, but agree very much with this:

Honestly at this rate the hosts are going to have to start providing fake name claims and riel claims to mafia, which I frankly encourage right now because I’ve seen that do wonders.

This is very much the direction I feel like we should be headed, it is kinda necessary.

 

[ExLight]

mido when ya gonna host a game

 

[Midorikawa]

mido when ya gonna host a game

When my lazy butt writes roles for Piofiore Mafia.

 

[guzmania]

piofiore mafia?? reserve me a spot pls

 

[Midorikawa]

piofiore mafia?? reserve me a spot pls

A fan of the game I presume.

 

[guzmania]

your assumption is correct