A little too late to replace Ash...?

[ii kanji]

I agree with those saying that business-wise it’s too early to say whether this is a smart move or not. Only time will tell.

However, narratively, I am very much of the opinion that if Satoshi’s journey has to end (which it has to! It could never go on forever), then it’s so much better to end it on a bang than a whimper, if and when the show is unceremoniously cancelled. In fact in that context there’s a definite argument for having finished his story at various previous arc endings. But they didn’t, so here we are. PM19 is not the series I would have chosen as Satoshi, Pikachu and the TRio’s last, but for the former, given the whole world champion business, it does make sense.

Emotionally it’s a wrench for me - honestly like a family bereavement or something as a genuinely didn’t envision life without these characters by my side - but I hope they are given a respectful and final send-off. IMO the worst possible outcome is leaving the door so wide open that they come back (or are teased to come back) in various guises forevermore, never allowing the characters to rest.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Bringing up Yu-Gi-Oh! and Digimon as proof that franchises can survive big shakeups still doesn't make sense to me. Not only because neither franchise waited twenty-five years to change their first protagonist, but both of them are much more story driven than Pokemon ever has been. Yu-Gi-Oh! especially doesn't work when DM was ultimately still an adaptation of the Duelist and Memory World volumes of the manga. Having new leads and casts with every series was much more of a necessity for those franchises by comparison. How well it has worked out for Digimon in the long run is a bit questionable due to how long they were relying on Adventure nostalgia with Tri and the reboot. Outside of DM, I don't think that any Yu-Gi-Oh! series has been successful outside of Japan, although to be fair, I don't think that changing the casts every few years is a factor as to why none of the spin-off series have taken off.

It's still too early to tell how well this series and the new leads will be received. It could work out well enough, but I just don't think it makes sense to use these franchises to say that it will work out fine.

 

[Weddingbells]

Peter Parker is really iconic.And if you read comicbooks you realize the biggest complaint of him is that the writers refuse to let him change. Any change he has is reset by a new #1 issue. Eanytjme he has a chance at a happen ending, nah retcon

Peter Parker is nearly as iconic as Pokemon and honestly way more inconcic than Ash. And look what happened to him in the comics.

I just can't understand the thought that keeping Ash for 100 years until the sun gives out isn't the pessimistic choice. That's what Simpsons did and look what happened to them. There a shell of their former selves.

And I think anyone saying the writers are to blame for this, I'm sorry that's really unfair and kinda ignorant to say. Do you know how hard it is to try to find a way to keep a character going for 25+ years while trying to make the fans and Pokemon company happy? And let's be honest, maybe the Pokemon company told them to do it. I doubt the writers have that much power to just end a character like Ash all on their own. So blaming the writers is even more weird.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

If you want an example of a legacy character that works, look no further than Barry Allen and Wally West in the Flash franchise. Barry was the Flash since the 60s until he was killed off in the 85 for Crisis on Infinite Earths. From 1985 to 2007, Wally West was the Flash. Wally’s tenure as the Flash was long enough that Barry was given some of Wally’s characterization, much to the frustration of many fans.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

To be fair, I don't exactly see people getting into the Pokémon anime because of how interesting Ash is as a character. Even in the fandom, there's a general agreement that Ash is...really not written that well. He's a generic protagonist who loves Pokémon and acts like a kid. That's it. The anime won't feel the same anymore to older fans, definitely. We've gotten an attachment to Ash just...being there. Plus, no Ash means no Team Rocket. Or any other previous companions people have gotten attached to.

But the thing is, while the anime may appeal to older audiences and nostalgia bait at times(case in point, the marketing around a lot of Journeys episodes), at the end of the day, it appeals primarily to kids.

I've seen people note how the anime appealing to new audiences is a reason for why Ash should go back to doing gym quests, because kids have never seen it before. It would be something new and fresh for the audience that has a structure. The thing is, though, this argument also applies in this situation. A new protagonist implies a new story, new characters, a new direction. (I mean, unless the new protagonist decides to become a Pokémon Master too, which...is very counterproductive, but it's too early to say what the new series will specifically be about aside from following Riko and Roy)

I think Ash deserves to be finally put to rest as a character. Could it have been done far better than...PM19? Yes. Absolutely. But I think an eleven episode series dedicated to defining what a Pokémon Master is and focusing on ending Ash's journey is a fair compromise.

 

[Weddingbells]

To be fair, I don't exactly see people getting into the Pokémon anime because of how interesting Ash is as a character. Even in the fandom, there's a general agreement that Ash is...really not written that well. He's a generic protagonist who loves Pokémon and acts like a kid. That's it. The anime won't feel the same anymore to older fans, definitely. We've gotten an attachment to Ash just...being there. Plus, no Ash means no Team Rocket. Or any other previous companions people have gotten attached to.

But the thing is, while the anime may appeal to older audiences and nostalgia bait at times(case in point, the marketing around a lot of Journeys episodes), at the end of the day, it appeals primarily to kids.

I've seen people note how the anime appealing to new audiences is a reason for why Ash should go back to doing gym quests, because kids have never seen it before. It would be something new and fresh for the audience that has a structure. The thing is, though, this argument also applies in this situation. A new protagonist implies a new story, new characters, a new direction. (I mean, unless the new protagonist decides to become a Pokémon Master too, which...is very counterproductive, but it's too early to say what the new series will specifically be about aside from following Riko and Roy)

I think Ash deserves to be finally put to rest as a character. Could it have been done far better than...PM19? Yes. Absolutely. But I think an eleven episode series dedicated to defining what a Pokémon Master is and focusing on ending Ash's journey is a fair compromise.

Yeah that's also one of my gripes with keeping Ash. He isn't that complex of a character tbh. That isn't an insult to him, but you can see why writing 25 years for him gets harder and harder. I feel his development was basically done since DP.

 

[Daren]

Yeah that's also one of my gripes with keeping Ash. He isn't that complex of a character tbh. That isn't an insult to him, but you can see why writing 25 years for him gets harder and harder. I feel his development was basically done since DP.

I think Ash and Pikachu's gen 1 arc is overall pretty good--they're both very different when they beat Drake compared to how they'd been in episode 1--but a lot of what came after that was repeating lessons and story beats from that era over and over.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

Yeah that's also one of my gripes with keeping Ash. He isn't that complex of a character tbh. That isn't an insult to him, but you can see why writing 25 years for him gets harder and harder. I feel his development was basically done since DP.

Which is why Goku should probably be retired from Dragon Ball too, for almost the same reasons.

 

[Weddingbells]

Which is why Goku should probably be retired from Dragon Ball too, for almost the same reasons.

I don't watch dragon ball so can't comment of that. But Goku is slightly different. He is the face of the ENTIRE franchise. Replacing him is kinda a different ballpark

Ash, while iconic, is the face of the anime, the anime which a majority of viewers stopped watching after OS.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

I don't watch dragon ball so can't comment of that. But Goku is slightly different. He is the face of the ENTIRE franchise. Replacing him is kinda a different ballpark

Ash, while iconic, is the face of the anime, the anime which a majority of viewers stopped watching after OS.

True. Which is probably why they should just end the Dragon Ball franchise entirely. Hell, they were already prepared to do just that when GT ended.

 

[InfiniteBakuphoon]

If there was a “I don’t care”, or a “It doesn’t matter”, or even a “I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or another” option on that poll, I’d probably choose that. As it is, it feels like a false dichotomy to have to choose between “yes” or “no”. My feelings are more complicated than that, and “I don’t know” feels inadequate for me to express them fully. I covered a lot of my feelings in another thread, so I won’t repeat them all here. But in any case, what I’m thinking is about the future more so than the past. After all, the past is just that: the past. Spending misplaced energy towards it in the hopes of achieving some catharsis from previous disappointments isn’t the best way to spend one’s time, or at least for me it isn’t. And given how little power we have as consumers of this anime to change the future of it, spending energy stressing over it isn’t something that I’m itching to do either, really. I just want to take things as they come, I think, and hope for the best, because that’s all that really can be done.

Now, that doesn’t mean that we can’t have discussions about the roads that could’ve been traveled here, and where they could’ve gone versus where we are now. It’s just that I don’t think that it’ll really go anywhere once it goes past a certain point. Unless you’re planning to write a fanfic or something, what would’ve been better for Ash and his story is all academic at this point, and it can be very tiring to argue about and spend precious brainpower on. Therefore, to all of you, I’d suggest that you use that brainpower carefully and sparingly about things like this, lest you become burnt out in vain by it all. Nothing is worthless, indeed, but with some things, the juice isn’t always worth the squeeze, and what you gain from it all may not be the lesson you expected to learn. And for me, that’s the point that I’ve reached. If I’m going to squeeze, I want to do it in the name of something else now, and even then only as much as I’m truly willing to. In this case, it’s the future of this anime, and again not the past.

 

[SushiBurrito]

I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere the logical time to replace Ash was either after Gold and Silver or after Diamond and Pearl. I don't know if "too late" is accurate but it certainly feels like "Why now?"

 

[Weddingbells]

I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere the logical time to replace Ash was either after Gold and Silver or after Diamond and Pearl. I don't know if "too late" is accurate but it certainly feels like "Why now?"

Because he is the strongest. Ash wants to be the best like no one has. Winning a league that tons of people already has isn't what I call "the best"

 

[Norzan]

Hell, they were already prepared to do just that when GT ended.

Actually GT was done with no involvement of Toriyama outside of the Super Saiyan 4 design, meaning he wanted the franchise to end with Z. He only came back to it like 20 years later after seeing how crap Dragon Ball Evolution was.

And he did try to replace Goku with Gohan as the face of the franchise, but fans had none of it.

 

[SushiBurrito]

Actually GT was done with no involvement of Toriyama outside of the Super Saiyan 4 design, meaning he wanted the franchise to end with Z. He only came back to it like 20 years later after seeing how crap Dragon Ball Evolution was.

And he did try to replace Goku with Gohan as the face of the franchise, but fans had none of it.

That's not entirely true. He came up with the name Dragon Ball GT and did some character designs beyond just Super Saiyan 4.

And it was Toriyama himself who decided Gohan didn't work out as a main character in a martial arts series not fan backlash

"
And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?
I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part"

Translations | Daizenshuu 2 - Akira Toriyama Super Interview

The second of six Daizenshuu interviews with Dragon Ball author Akira Toriyama in which he discusses the series' story and development.

www.kanzenshuu.com

 

[Kurolegacy]

Because he is the strongest. Ash wants to be the best like no one has. Winning a league that tons of people already has isn't what I call "the best"

I’m not sure if that was ever actually stated in the sub rather than just being a dub tagline from the English opening. Ash took part in the PWC because he loves battle and wanted to battle Leon. Ash’s goal is to be a Pokémon Master, not the very best. And really, to say that he’s complete after winning the PWC is like saying that an athlete should retire after taking Gold in the Olympics. If anything, it kinda presents the mistake in shilling Leon so far above his usual Galar Champion status to say he’s essentially leagues above any regular champion and only served to the detriment of the Masters 8 by making it overly predictable due to plot armor in which Leon had to endless be shilled.

 

[Imtnt]

Xy with a win, and then leaving with his Greninja to pritect the earth or something? Or even ending it all with him challenging the regional champion of Kalos/Kanto.
But here and now is good enough I guess..
I don't see myself watching Pokemon 2023 though.

 

[Emmy]

Now that Ash is World Champion, clearly the next step is to have his father return to Poké-Earth and reveal that Ash is actually part-Saiyan and his home planet needs him so now he must go help save it, taking Pikachu along with him of course to have Pokemon battles in outer space with aliens who have their own pokemon or something.

Somebody's probably already made that joke, but I'm not sorry.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Xy with a win, and then leaving with his Greninja to pritect the earth or something? Or even ending it all with him challenging the regional champion of Kalos/Kanto.
But here and now is good enough I guess..
I don't see myself watching Pokemon 2023 though.

That’s what should have happened and he would’ve ended up with Serena

 

[Broseph08]

I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere the logical time to replace Ash was either after Gold and Silver or after Diamond and Pearl. I don't know if "too late" is accurate but it certainly feels like "Why now?"

They made him the strongest trainer in the world and had him defeat trainers like Steven, Cynthia, and Leon. There's really nowhere to go up from there. Sure they could invent reasons for him to keep traveling and becoming a 'Pokemon Master' but Ash's goals for 25 years have been entirely about battling. That's what the climax of each season has been so to reach the pinnacle of that... where else do you go