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Obsolete: A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

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I just realized something.

The Others/Great Other/Drowned God = The cold depths of space

The children of the forest = earthy custodians of the terrestrial biomes

Dragons/R'hllor = The stars/sun/comets ("fire made flesh")

This is actually a science fantasy series.

Shirtless Ramsay makes sense. He embodies the worst of the bastard's stereotypes, especially spite for the noble class. In the show and books, he has a disdain for lords. Evident in how he strips Theon of his identity and source of power (his cock, notice how much fucking Theon got up to in A Clash of Kings). He has no identity of his own, at this point in the show, except as a Snow. Early in the season, he put himself at Reek's mercy with the razor blade. This shows that Ramsay doesn't really care about anything at this point in the show's story. Again, we see him being reckless with the ironborn. His actions show us that Ramsay, having no real identity, believes himself to be worthless, nothing, and thus we see him living up to the bastard's stereotypes.

Now, if Ramsay Bolton were to do this again in season five, that would feel strange. I can't defend Yara getting BTFO by the dogs, though.
 
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Beth Pavell said:
Lugion said:
AC-Prescott said:
What was even the point of that scene? It was like four minutes long and easily could have been cut out.

Also, as I haven't really found anything on this on my usual source for book information, what happens with the line of succession in the Lannister family after Tywin's death? Tyrion's gone MIA, Cersei can't be the heir for reasons not-so-obvious (or at least not for long), and I doubt Jaime would keep his word on becoming the heir... Or maybe he would, now that he's had a hand removed.
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In the books, Cersei is next in line after Tywin. Tyrion, of course, can't be the heir for various reasons, and Jaime can't actually leave the Kingsguard.
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I disagree. Even if Tommen is legitimately Baratheon, the titles of Lord Lannister pass to him. He comes ahead of Cersei on account of being male, and ahead of Kevan by virtue of being Tywin's grandson. If he dies, the title passes to Kevan, then Lancel in that order
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I'm pretty sure that the altered primogeniture thingy is only for the royal family. A Wiki of Ice and Fire lists Cersei as Lady of Casterly Rock and "Current Lord" of House Lannister.
 
As far as I can recall, in the text itself there's no explicit mention that the succession laws are any different for the royal House. I don't remember any situation where a woman inherits her House's titles while male relatives survive, though there may have been one I'd forgotten. I'm sure I recall that Kevan wanted Cersei out of the Capital where she couldn't do any further damage, hence sending her back to the Rock. I just don't see how Cersei can inherit the Rock while Tommen is alive. While he's still officially a Baratheon and therefore legitimate he should take precedence over his mother as Tywin's direct descendent. You could say that since Tommen is a minor that Cersei is the de facto Lady of the Rock, I suppose

EDIT: It just occurred to me that the wiki may have Cersei listed as Lady of the Rock since Tommen is illegitimate (Ironically a Lannister squared but still can't inherit). I would still argue that Kevan would become Lord Lannister nevertheless
 
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Beth Pavell said:
As far as I can recall, in the text itself there's no explicit mention that the succession laws are any different for the royal House. I don't remember any situation where a woman inherits her House's titles while male relatives survive, though there may have been one I'd forgotten. I'm sure I recall that Kevan wanted Cersei out of the Capital where she couldn't do any further damage, hence sending her back to the Rock. I just don't see how Cersei can inherit the Rock while Tommen is alive. While he's still officially a Baratheon and therefore legitimate he should take precedence over his mother as Tywin's direct descendent. You could say that since Tommen is a minor that Cersei is the de facto Lady of the Rock, I suppose

EDIT: It just occurred to me that the wiki may have Cersei listed as Lady of the Rock since Tommen is illegitimate (Ironically a Lannister squared but still can't inherit). I would still argue that Kevan would become Lord Lannister nevertheless
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There's also the fact that Targaryen heirs apparent ruled over Dragonstone, while the reigning Targaryen ruled from King's Landing.
 
If I recall correctly, there were a bunch of civil wars due to this exact issue (except with the throne) due to females not being able to inherit the crown (back when the Targaryens held the kingdom). I'd have to peruse the wiki for more information, but there is one more thing to note regarding the current lord of the Rock

BOOK SPOILER (A DANCE WITH DRAGONS) UNDERNEATH

Kevan Lannister is dead, killed by Varys in order to aid Aegon's ascension to the throne
 
@Mako I had somehow managed to completely forget about that. So if Tommen managed to die, then the title would go to Cersei. Lancel can't inherit since he joined the Swords, Kevan's other sons are dead and Tyrek is missing. I suppose Daven could try and contest the claim as a Lannister of Lannisport and Tywin's nephew by marriage. I don't know why the author of the wiki article seems to think that you need to be a Lannister to inherit the Rock though
 
@Beth Pavell; my assumption (and this is just an assumption) is that since Tommen is already the King... that the holder of the entire throne doesn't hold the title of Lord of the Rock (which is a lower title than Tommen's other ones) and thus it passes to the next in line, which is, as you laid out, Cersei.
 
Im pretty sure the King in the books cannot be a lord over their previous dominion as well - I believe Dragonstone was given to the Heir to the Throne rather than the King rule over it as well. I think if the Wiki of IAF says that Cersei's in charge then she's in charge - given the people behind that website have co-authored a book on the history of Westeros with GRRM, I trust what they say :p
 
Cersei wouldn't necessarily want to be Lord/Lady of Casterly Rock anyway though; she wants power, but she also does not want to abandon her last son and the last child who she can actually directly control. When I went to find out if she is the Lady of CR last night (but my computer played up before I could find out) I read an interesting analysis of her and she is actually is quite a deeper character than I initially thought.
 
Re: Writer's Workshop General Chat Thread

So, without spoiling anything, season 5 of Game of Thrones ended tonight, and I'm beginning to think that the show's writers are just... just awful. The show has basically caught up with the books, so they've been kinda doing their own thing. And practically everything they've done on their own screams silly, amateurish writing, designed to keep the show popular through controversy and shock value. I think I'm done with this show unless the next season's preview trailer is particularly gripping. Ranting.

It just breaks my heart to see such a great adaptation (not the greatest, mind) turn to shit in the span of about 4 episodes. That's gotta be a record.
 
Re: Writer's Workshop General Chat Thread

Kimberly Prescott said:
So, without spoiling anything, season 5 of Game of Thrones ended tonight, and I'm beginning to think that the show's writers are just... just awful. The show has basically caught up with the books, so they've been kinda doing their own thing. And practically everything they've done on their own screams silly, amateurish writing, designed to keep the show popular through controversy and shock value. I think I'm done with this show unless the next season's preview trailer is particularly gripping. Ranting.

It just breaks my heart to see such a great adaptation (not the greatest, mind) turn to shit in the span of about 4 episodes. That's gotta be a record.
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I was done at about episode 3. Heard a lot of about what's happened since then from my friend who kept watching, and well ... it just goes to prove two things. One, that once a show like this gets it's own momentum it doesn't matter how ridiculous the story gets, it never loses popularity. And two, Benioff and Weiss are dreadful authors
 
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I am a bit 'meh' about the show now. I felt like there have been some good parts this season - notably the Hardhome episode - but ultimately the show has failed in trying to adapt books of this size. I think that they did a decent job for the first four seasons, but now for some reason they have just keeled over under the weight of so many characters and plotlines. With regards to the books, I actually like the last two as I feel they manage the job of splitting between the storylines well, and I like the storylines covered. I am so annoyed at how Dorne was such a catastrophic failure and they wasted a season on Jamie and Bronn when they could have done much better work elsewhere. Ultimately, I am rating this season quite low.
 
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that George Martin is brave enough to do what the story requires rather than what's immediately popular, which is the opposite to what TV writers regularly do. It's ironic, really, that now the show is popular enough to do that (Actually put faith in the story rather than try to plug the "boring" bits with absurd drama), that's precisely what they won't do.

I wasn't a huge fan of Season 4, as I dare say people will remember, but there was still plenty to enjoy and I got the impression that at least the majority of changes being made really were because of the demands of a different medium.

For me, too much starting making no sense early on to want to continue (A two-man embassy to Dorne? Really? Melisandre getting her tits out again for no reason? Aegon VI completely disappearing, Littlefinger's adapted plans not benefiting himself at all, The Sons of the Harpy dropping guerilla tactics, Ser Barristan's death ...)
 
I agree, I think GRRM actually does a really good job to make stuff that may be considered 'boring' interesting to read, and the storylines and characters get to develop and be fleshed out as a result.

I think part of the issue is that Benioff and Weiss probably just want to do what they want to do now: they likely have some inside knowledge, and they are using it to make changes that they want to make even though those changes are not exactly the best. Killing Barristan was pointless and was just to make room for Tyrion cause he is the more popular character, when at the same tine they have never really done much with Barristan to make him popular enough to keep around. The show also does such a bad job with Melissandre, especially given the fact Carice van Houten is actually quite good but they don't give her much asides from "I'm a crazy religious lady, imma set you on fire lolz".

Also, the fact they have ignored so many of the supernatural elements, namely the prophecies and the direwolf relationships, continues to irk me as those are such good parts of the books and not including them continues to puzzle me.
 
We're in agreement again, that's nice xD Melisandre has been wasted, I agree. In the books there was some more ambiguity, I feel. Yes, we saw her as manipulative and self-righteous to the point of arrogant, but she also might just have had a point - we could see what was happening at the Wall. For me, the final nail in her coffin was when she got her tits out for Jon Snoo Snow. It didn't even make any sense in context (In that sense being even worse than the leech scene), just titty for the sake of it.

You'd think that The Prince that Was Promised would make for a good strong story element to keep coming back to. I can, reluctantly, see why they might want to get rid of Aegon VI. Much as I find Daenerys annoying and the show's fanboyism around her (OMG DRAGUNS) even more so, I can see why you might want to cut that strand. It takes a long time to set up properly, and would have meant a lot more of Tyrion travelling with apparently very supporting supporting characters. I can't help but suspect that the point of the Meereen plot (That being self-righteous and having dragons isn't enough to be able to rule) is going to be missed
 
In the books you have the benefit of Melisandre getting a perspective chapter: in the show, I don't think a scene has ever been told fully from her perspective. I feel like even that one chapter shows so many sides to her personality and aids her character so much. The show can deny it all it wants, but they really do treat women poorly. It's not even a matter of boobs to dick ratio or anything; we don't even see shirtless men that often in the same sexual setting, and often then it is a fat or older man.

I think it would have made good TV, but I think the rumours around the fact the storyline may turn to nothing have possibly set it back. However, having a potentially more viable claim to the Throne than Dany certainly would have been interesting, and the fact they have invaded by the end of DwD would mean the wars can keep going. Right now on the show, everything is petering out.
 
That is a problem, and I suspected we'd get that with Cersei, too - her perspective in A Feast for Crows is entirely necessary to explain her increasing tyranny and misrule. Without her perspective it just doesn't make sense - whatever else Cersei is, she is not a natural idiot. Hmm, well ... yes, I think there is some truth to the show liking to focus on the plight of the women. There's no getting away from the fact that it is a setting where women are easily victimised, however. Having quickly skimmed through what I might have missed this season, it seems that this has got to the point where they're looking for ways to victimise their women characters, so I guess your mileage may vary

I think it's a shame, because Martin does a good job of showing how dragons aren't just some easy mcguffin to power - Dany's attempt at personal rule means that she has no time to train them, no idea how really to look after them, and no-one she can really delegate ruling or training to. It's that kind of thing that sets A Song of Ice and Fire apart from other fantasy. It's telling that even without looking at The World of Ice and Fire you can tell that Aegon the Conqueror didn't just become King because he had three dragons - he had three dragons and three dragonriders who knew dragon lore, two sisters he could delegate to, and even then he still made alliances and deals
 
AceTrainer14 said:
I think it would have made good TV
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Aegon's appearance might have made good TV, but I don't think the audience would have gotten behind it. When I first learned that Aegon had survived the destruction of House Targaryen, I thought of it was a complete cop-out. So much time and effort went into building Daenerys as a character, then all of a sudden this guy comes out of nowhere and instantly has a better claim. While I've warmed to the idea and I want to see what is done with it, I still think it's a silly idea at its core. I'm sure the average watcher of the TV series would have been like "the hell is this shit, why isn't my blonde waifu going to be queen damn it?!" and it would hurt the show's popularity overall.

Ya know, unless the writers find another strong female character to throw into a rapist's path, or another popular character to kill for no reason.
 
Kimberly Prescott said:
AceTrainer14 said:
I think it would have made good TV
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Aegon's appearance might have made good TV, but I don't think the audience would have gotten behind it. When I first learned that Aegon had survived the destruction of House Targaryen, I thought of it was a complete cop-out. So much time and effort went into building Daenerys as a character, then all of a sudden this guy comes out of nowhere and instantly has a better claim. While I've warmed to the idea and I want to see what is done with it, I still think it's a silly idea at its core. I'm sure the average watcher of the TV series would have been like "the hell is this shit, why isn't my blonde waifu going to be queen damn it?!" and it would hurt the show's popularity overall.

Ya know, unless the writers find another strong female character to throw into a rapist's path, or another popular character to kill for no reason.
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I think that the fact Aegon's storyline is so up in the air makes it difficult to transition to film, because if he does turn out to be a fake, it would all be for nothing. Plus, at the moment there are little to no threats opposed on anyone really in the show. Having Aegon would have guaranteed some degree of conflict, instead of the show having to randomly (and pointlessly) kill Myrcella
 
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