Attempted terrorist attack on plane landing in Michigan

[Big Lutz]

That'd be both good and bad. On the plus side, coordinated strike have the potential to do much, much more damage, and there are things an individual acting alone is unlikely to do (a single terrorist would have a hard time taking over a plane even with limited security measures, for one thing). On the downside, 18 terrorists trying to coordinate are bound to betray themselves and tip off the authorities (well, in theory. Sometime, eg 9-11 proper, the authorities just aren't coordinating enough to put together the information available), but a single terrorist acting alone will be much less likely to tip off people in time.

That is true, then again a single terrorist can be very powerful in his own right, maybe not on a airplane or train, but give him a canister of nerve agent to release in a airport, or a small nuclear bomb and he can destroy a city.

Then again al Qaeda continues to miss the doomsday scenario that could shut down this country and damage it in ways that make 9/11 look like child's play. You don't go after airplanes, you put about 5 or 6 guys around the country, load them up with weapons and explosives, and let them go on a killing spree at malls, movie theaters, and super markets in the weeks leading up to Christmas. People by and large can avoid airplanes and huge sky scrapers and land marks that could be targets. You make it where people don't know if they can go to the mall or the movies or the super market without a terror attack happening to them and their family, and you would have done massive damage.

 

[The Big Al]

And that kind of stupidity could have possibly caused numerous planes to explode. 'Actually thinking' in this type of situation, especially when that kind of 'thinking' is keeping our national leader out of the loop is pathetically stupid of the highest level.

I'll ask again. What could we have done!? You're thinking irrationally. If numerous planes were going to explode, there was nothing we could have done because we had no information. This was out of nowhere. There was no intelligence, nothing from Al Qaeda, zip-zero-zilch for us to act on. This is your problem, you're paranoid and it translate into this irrational thinking.

What could have been done, quite a lot, including working to ground all aircraft, the President has authority that no one else has, something I believe you liberals have repeated over and over again in the minutes Bush waited in the class room after 9/11.

You make sound so simple. You can't snap your fingers and all planes are suddenly on the tarmac, especially when you're dealing with flights over the ocean. What your calling for would be the total halt of air travel based on one guy. God, you're dense.

As for Bush. He was given the news "America is under attack" and sat there like a dear in headlights. That's very different from one guy set off a bomb out of nowhere.

You are right the FBI had nothing to go beyond a single guy, the bomb being badly constructed is hindsight, and we had no idea if the flights were targeted or not, which is why you air on the side of caution. Keeping the President out of the loop in what could have easily been a moment of national crisis is as dangerous as it is stupid.

I cannot believe you disagree on that.

I disagree with creating a panic over an isolated incident.

My question is: why Michigan? There's no political value in bombing Michigan (or maybe the terrorist really didn't like that Chrysler he had.)

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The CIA has an intense recruiting campaign underway in the Detroit area for people speak Arabic. This might have been message to them.

 

[Phoenicks]

I'll ask again. What could we have done!? You're thinking irrationally. If numerous planes were going to explode, there was nothing we could have done because we had no information. This was out of nowhere. There was no intelligence, nothing from Al Qaeda, zip-zero-zilch for us to act on. This is your problem, you're paranoid and it translate into this irrational thinking.

England managed to keep him out. What did they know that we didn't, and why?

Airline bomber was barred from Britain


Just in May the UK refused him a visa. Again, they knew something that we didn't.

Here's something else:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581184,00.html

The US knew for almost 2 years that he might have terrorist ties.

You make sound so simple. You can't snap your fingers and all planes are suddenly on the tarmac, especially when you're dealing with flights over the ocean. What your calling for would be the total halt of air travel based on one guy. God, you're dense.

Funny, but Lutz didn't say "GROUND ALL AIRCRAFT IMMEDIATELY". He said "working to ground all aircraft". Those are two different things. You must be seeing things that aren't there Al.

As for Bush. He was given the news "America is under attack" and sat there like a dear in headlights. That's very different from one guy set off a bomb out of nowhere.

That's looking through at the past through the lens of the present. At the time, Bush was told "A plane crashed into the World Trade Center". It was not until later that he received word that it was a planned terrorist attack. Stop inventing history.

 

[Big Lutz]

I'll ask again. What could we have done!?

With the amount of emergency powers the Presidency has gained over the years, especially during the Bush Administration with the relation to terrorism the President could have done alot.

You're thinking irrationally. If numerous planes were going to explode, there was nothing we could have done because we had no information. This was out of nowhere. There was no intelligence, nothing from Al Qaeda, zip-zero-zilch for us to act on. This is your problem, you're paranoid and it translate into this irrational thinking.

Except here is your problem yes we didn't have information of the current plot, we did have information of past plots involving bombs on airliners. The President and federal agencies MUST think of this in terms of worst case scenario, lack of intelligence is not a excuse for lack of intelligence in this situation. We didn't know if this was one plane or like 9/11 several planes in motion at the same time, the President must assume that this is not a isolated person and must act as such.

And that is where you run into a problem, it is up to the President to decide what to do and when to act, not a mid level staffer some where. the President was not even given the opportunity to decide what to do. If the new 'thinking' that is going to happen in Washington, in which the President will not even be informed hours later in the event of a national emergency then we are very very screwed.

You make sound so simple. You can't snap your fingers and all planes are suddenly on the tarmac, especially when you're dealing with flights over the ocean. What your calling for would be the total halt of air travel based on one guy. God, you're dense.

And you are coming off as very very ignorant. It would take several hours for the planes to be landing that is true, with the airliners over the ocean they would be diverted to Mexico or Canada as what happened on 9/11. When you have a plot like this happen you need to get those planes out of the air as you do not know if a plane will explode in the next few hours over Time Square raining death and destruction down.

As for Bush. He was given the news "America is under attack" and sat there like a dear in headlights. That's very different from one guy set off a bomb out of nowhere.

This may be a news flash for you but the man was 'attacking America' his plot was to destroy a airplane and kill everyone on board and possibly down below. This isn't that much different than what happened on 9/11.

I disagree with creating a panic over an isolated incident.

And you continue to not think in the 4th dimension, right NOW we know it is a isolated incident. Back THEN we did not, the feds had no idea if there was one bomber or ten, and with most al Qaeda plots it usually is more like ten. Saying that they shouldn't create a panic over a isolated incident is as stupid as saying they should have done nothing while 9/11 was happening.

Also just curious, how many planes in your estimate need to have attempted terrorist acts committed on them before the President should be bothered? How many Americans need to be placed in harm's way before it is decided that it is worthy to bring it to the President's attention? It's okay if you just give me a nice round number.

That's looking through at the past through the lens of the present. At the time, Bush was told "A plane crashed into the World Trade Center". It was not until later that he received word that it was a planned terrorist attack. Stop inventing history.

Big Al is right he was told that America was under attack, what he didn't mention was that Bush was also told not to say anything. After that morning in which a security problem had already happened due to a Arab Camera Crew, and the Secret service having no idea if another plane was coming toward them at the moment, they probably wanted Bush to stay where he was at while they made absolutely sure he was safe before he began moving again.

Difference here is that Obama wasn't at a school but at a vacation home, and while Bush waited 7 minutes, Obama was not informed for over 3 hours. Now this is not a slam on Obama, or even his administration. Some one in the chain of command did not see fit to inform the President in a moment of what could be a national crisis if things had played out differently. That is incredibly troubling, as in situations like this the President does hold very needed powers.

 

[Phoenicks]

Big Al is right he was told that America was under attack, what he didn't mention was that Bush was also told not to say anything. After that morning in which a security problem had already happened due to a Arab Camera Crew, and the Secret service having no idea if another plane was coming toward them at the moment, they probably wanted Bush to stay where he was at while they made absolutely sure he was safe before he began moving again.

Difference here is that Obama wasn't at a school but at a vacation home, and while Bush waited 7 minutes, Obama was not informed for over 3 hours. Now this is not a slam on Obama, or even his administration. Some one in the chain of command did not see fit to inform the President in a moment of what could be a national crisis if things had played out differently. That is incredibly troubling, as in situations like this the President does hold very needed powers.

http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday

In some accounts, “President Bush had emerged from his car and was shaking hands with local officials standing outside the school when Chief of Staff Andrew Card sidled up to him with the news.” [CBS, 11/1/02] Bush later recalled that it was Card who first notified him: “‘Here’s what you’re going to be doing; you’re going to meet so-and-so, such-and-such.’ Then Andy Card said, ‘By the way, an aircraft flew into the World Trade Center.’ ” [Washington Times, 10/7/02] At a press conference later that day, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer also claimed it was Andy Card who first informed him, “as the President finished shaking hands in a hallway of school officials.” [Knoxville News Sentinel, 9/11/01]

In other accounts, it was advisor Karl Rove who first told Bush. According to photographer Eric Draper, who was standing nearby, Rove rushed up, took Bush aside in a corridor inside the school and said the cause of the crash was unclear. Bush replied, “What a horrible accident!” Bush also suggested the pilot may have had a heart attack. [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Dan Bartlett, White House Communications Director, says he was there when Bush was told: “ [Bush] being a former pilot, had kind of the same reaction, going, was it bad weather? And I said no, apparently not.” [ABC News, 9/11/02] A reporter who was standing nearby later said, “From the demeanor of the President, grinning at the children, it appeared that the enormity of what he had been told was taking a while to sink in.” [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] One account explicitly says that Rove told Bush the World Trade Center had been hit by a large commercial airliner. [Telegraph, 12/16/01] However, Bush later remembered Rove saying it appeared to be an accident involving a small, twin-engine plane. [Washington Post, 1/27/02, MSNBC, 9/02]

In yet another account, Blake Gottesman, Bush’s personal assistant, while giving the president some final instructions as they walked to the school, remarked, “Andy Card says, ‘By the way, an aircraft flew into the World Trade Center.’ ” [Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism—From Inside the Bush White House, by Bill Sammon, 10/02, pp. 41-42]

There are many accounts of what happened during 9/11. Most of them agree in that Bush originally thought that the attacks were an accident.

Now, having looked through everyone's comments, I realize that we have not been specific about what point in time we were talking about. I am talking about when Bush first received the information. At that point in time, he did not know that it was an attack.

 

[hurristat]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The CIA has an intense recruiting campaign underway in the Detroit area for people speak Arabic. This might have been message to them.

Ah. I was unaware of this.... Then yes, there is a political message he was trying to send.

 

[Eredar Warlock]

Perhaps not so isolated.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581232,00.html

Police have arrested a Nigerian airline passenger following a disruption on the same Detroit-bound flight that was attacked Christmas Day by another Nigerian man who attempted to blow up the aircraft while in flight.

Several police vehicles and a police command unit have surrounded a Northwest Airlines plane at Detroit's Metro Airport Sunday after the pilot on the flight requested emergency help. The man reportedly became verbally disruptive and barricaded himself in the bathroom for an hour.

Two sources tell Fox News that the suspect boarded a plan in Lagos, Nigeria, with no baggage, and said the FBI has already sent an e-mail alert to other federal agencies notifying them of the incident.

A source told Fox News tjay the man taken into custody at the Detroit airport was a Nigerian national in his 30s. Federal officials know who the suspect is, but won't provide any more details.

There are some reports suggesting that the man, who reportedly barricaded himself in the plane's bathroom for an huor, may just have been a sick passenger.

Detroit's Metro Airport spokesman John Wintner said there was a report of suspicious activity on the Delta/Northwest Airlines Flight 253 from Amsterdam Sunday. That is the same flight that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a 23-year-old Nigerian man, was suspected of attempting to blow up over Detroit on Christmas Day.

Federal officials are trying to determine whether there is any connection between the disturbance Sunday and the attempted bombing Friday, when Abdulmutallab was subdued by passengers and arrested on the ground in Detroit.

White House spokesman Bill Burton said President Obama was notified of the disturbance Sunday as federal officials began reviewing airline security measures.

"The President was notified shortly after 9:00 a.m. Hawaiian time of the incident regarding an unruly passenger on the flight arriving in Detroit by NSS chief of staff Denis McDonough," Burton said. "The President stressed the importance of maintaining heightened security measures for all air travel and gave instructions to set up another secure teleconference briefing as soon as possible."

All 257 passengers and 12 crew have deplaned safely, said Delta spokeswoman Susan Elliott. The flight landed in Detroit at 12:34 p.m. Sunday.

The plane has been moved to a remote location at the airport so authorities can conduct additional screening, Reuters reported.

Coincidence? Maybe. We'll simply have to see.

 

[Big Lutz]

Some semi Breaking News here, the terrorist is saying that he is one of many al Qaeda trained terrorists from Yemen who plan to exploit the US' international flight security. This seems to go with the British police saying that there are 25 British Nationals being trained in Yemen right now to attack Western Flights. As well as what the al Qaeda leader in Yemen said days before the attack: “We are carrying a bomb to hit the enemies of God.”

Meanwhile Joe Lieberman is now calling for full scale attack by the US in bases in Yemen saying: “Iraq was yesterday’s war, Afghanistan is today’s war. If we don’t act preemptively, Yemen will be tomorrow’s war.”

I have to agree, if we know these guys are being trained in Yemen, and we lucked out on having 300 Americans survive a attack because of a faulty detonator, the time to act is now, as next time we will not be so lucky. It's time for the Obama Administration to call for a full scale attack on al Qaeda bases in Yemen before more Americans are killed.

 

[Phoenicks]

That guy was trained?

We need to act now. People often criticize Bush for missing his opportunity to nab Osama bin Laden, and we could miss another opportunity by not acting now.

 

[Big Lutz]

That guy was trained?

We need to act now. People often criticize Bush for missing his opportunity to nab Osama bin Laden, and we could miss another opportunity by not acting now.

Apparently so, here is the ABC News Article

American officials have cause to worry there may be more al Qaeda-trained young men in Yemen planning to bring down American jets.

Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, charged with the attempted Christmas Day bombing of Northwest Airlines flight 253, told FBI agents there were more just like him in Yemen who would strike soon.

And in a tape released four days before the attempted destruction of the Detroit-bound Northwest plane, the leader of al Qaeda in Yemen boasted of what was planned for Americans, saying, “We are carrying a bomb to hit the enemies of God.”

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/abdulmutallab-yemen/story?id=9430536

 

[Angad]

One thing: Terrorists need to GTFO of my state because Detroit is relatively close to my city.

 

[H-con]

Isn't this really what they wanted? To spread such fear as we're seeing today? I don't care about whether or not he was trained or was in a group or whatever, he did certainly create quite a scare, and that is a goal in itself, don't you think?

I do believe that this was an individual acting alone, we can never be sure about that. Still, I don't really think all these measures are really all that necessary. I'm not flying anywhere anytime soon anyways, so I don't really care all that much about the measures now in effect either.

In conclusion, good thing they caught him, but they made quite a mess if you ask me.

 

[Angad]

One more thing: Fuck you, Terrorists.

 

[Eredar Warlock]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581307,00.html

 

[Mr. Slowpoke]

One more thing: Fuck you, Terrorists.

This.

 

[Big Lutz]

Isn't this really what they wanted? To spread such fear as we're seeing today? I don't care about whether or not he was trained or was in a group or whatever, he did certainly create quite a scare, and that is a goal in itself, don't you think?

If it is al Qaeda and at this moment there is overwhelming proof that it was, then his desired effect wasn't just to scare but to kill as many Americans as possible.

I do believe that this was an individual acting alone, we can never be sure about that.

The man was carrying nearly twice as much high intensity explosive as the shoe bomber, and was strategically positioned at a place that would destroy the plane. He also has said he was with al Qaeda and al Qaeda released a statement about it. How much more proof do you need that he wasn't working alone?

Still, I don't really think all these measures are really all that necessary. I'm not flying anywhere anytime soon anyways, so I don't really care all that much about the measures now in effect either.

Not only are they necessary but we need to go further. Right now al Qaeda found a drastic weakness in our security, and they have said they plan to exploit it for as much damage as possible. You may not be flying, but here do this, look above your head next time outside, look to see how many planes fly over you in a hour or two hours or three hours. Imagine one of those planes exploding right over your house or where you work. That debris is not going to magically disappear, it will come crashing down.

In conclusion, good thing they caught him, but they made quite a mess if you ask me.

No see, if that explosion had worked, THAT would have made quite a mess. If we do not actively work to stop and kill al Qaeda in Yemen THAT will make quite a mess.

 

[H-con]

If it is al Qaeda and at this moment there is overwhelming proof that it was, then his desired effect wasn't just to scare but to kill as many Americans as possible.

Or generally Europeans as well? Just saying Americans seems a little ... wrong, even if the plane was mostly filled with Americans, as I doubt he actually like the what we call "the West" in general, to be honest.
As I said, I couldn't care less about what or who he worked for, as it has no interest for me if he worked alone or not, as it wouldn't change anything for my part. Imagine the fear he would have created if the attack was successful. I find it hard to imagine what could have happened, and that is one of the key results of a terrorist-attack, is it not? To be able to spread fear in the population? And fear he did spread, so it was somewhat effective in it's purpose, although he didn't bring the plane down, nor was it able to be fully executed, and we should be grateful of that.

No see, if that explosion had worked, THAT would have made quite a mess.

Of course it would have, but I still think the case could have been dealt with in a better way (not talking about how the man was stopped, but afterwards).

Again, I don't really care whether or not this man was a member of Al Quaeda or any other terrorist organization for that matter, as it holds no interest for me. What I care about is that they successfully managed to stop the attack, as I'm not flying anytime soon anyways, so I don't really care too much about increased security-measures as well.

 

[Big Lutz]

Or generally Europeans as well? Just saying Americans seems a little ... wrong, even if the plane was mostly filled with Americans, as I doubt he actually like the what we call "the West" in general, to be honest.

I say Americans because this flight was targeted because it was Americans and because it was going into America. If it was going into Paris or Britain I would have used the word Europeans.

As I said, I couldn't care less about what or who he worked for, as it has no interest for me if he worked alone or not, as it wouldn't change anything for my part. Imagine the fear he would have created if the attack was successful. I find it hard to imagine what could have happened, and that is one of the key results of a terrorist-attack, is it not? To be able to spread fear in the population? And fear he did spread, so it was somewhat effective in it's purpose, although he didn't bring the plane down, nor was it able to be fully executed, and we should be grateful of that.

You seem to be confusing the original form of terrorism with that of the Guerrilla Warfare that al Qaeda causes, any added terror used by the attack is just a additional bonus, their goal first and foremost is to kill the enemy when ever and will ever possible with as much damage as possible.

Of course it would have, but I still think the case could have been dealt with in a better way (not talking about how the man was stopped, but afterwards).

Well when you have so many passengers the story is going to get out to the press, it is impossible to suppress a story that large with over 300 people. Not to mention right now we want people to be on the look out, we have gotten into a bit of a pre 9/11 mind set. Before this event people had gotten to the point where they allow suspicious behavior to some what go unchecked because of possible racist allegations and possible lawsuits. Hopefully that has been wiped away and people are beginning to realize the threat we still face at home.

Again, I don't really care whether or not this man was a member of Al Quaeda or any other terrorist organization for that matter, as it holds no interest for me. What I care about is that they successfully managed to stop the attack, as I'm not flying anytime soon anyways, so I don't really care too much about increased security-measures as well.

The only reason they stopped the attack was because the detonator did not work. al Qaeda will not make the same mistake again. As for not flying, like I said al Qaeda well detonate these planes over cities and suburbs to maximize collateral damage.

 

[H-con]

You seem to be confusing the original form of terrorism with that of the Guerrilla Warfare that al Qaeda causes, any added terror used by the attack is just a additional bonus, their goal first and foremost is to kill the enemy when ever and will ever possible with as much damage as possible.

I disagree. If Al Quaeda wants to destroy our society, it's done through fear, and not necessarily physical acts, although it's the physical acts that spread the fear. The fact that we never can feel safe is not the best feeling in the world, and spreading that through our society is, after my opinion, a far greater accomplishment than killing the most amount of people, although they would probably look at that as a positive side-effect. Just look at how much fear this have spread, and I feel that is something we should at least consider, and not let blinding fear rule (not that it is at the moment though, but if they get what they want, it could). And that is something we should most certainly avoid.

I won't disagree on the whole "was he alone"-thing, simply because I don't care, as I said, nor the Americans comment. although I would like to point out that in my opinion, I don't really think he cared much about the nationality of those on-board, just that it was going from Europe to America. Still, don't bother replying to that last bit, as it doesn't really benefit the debate.

 

[Big Lutz]

I disagree. If Al Quaeda wants to destroy our society, it's done through fear, and not necessarily physical acts, although it's the physical acts that spread the fear. The fact that we never can feel safe is not the best feeling in the world, and spreading that through our society is, after my opinion, a far greater accomplishment than killing the most amount of people, although they would probably look at that as a positive side-effect. Just look at how much fear this have spread, and I feel that is something we should at least consider, and not let blinding fear rule (not that it is at the moment though, but if they get what they want, it could). And that is something we should most certainly avoid.

I won't disagree on the whole "was he alone"-thing, simply because I don't care, as I said, nor the Americans comment. although I would like to point out that in my opinion, I don't really think he cared much about the nationality of those on-board, just that it was going from Europe to America. Still, don't bother replying to that last bit, as it doesn't really benefit the debate.

Except this isn't really a debate, you are right that al Qaeda is trying to change our society but they are using guerrilla tactic and military means to bring about it's downfall. Either way it really comes down to we are arguing over what is essentially the same thing just in which order they come.