Brock, Cilan and Tracey: Why Bother?

[EvilChameleon]

Another reason why I think she will stick around is because she's a trainer. She's not interested in contests or any of that. So what better way to become a better trainer than continuing to travel with Ash?

 

[Alola]

While Cilan fills the same role as Brock/Tracey, I really don't think you can bash him the same way. I say the writers really tried with him, at least in the beginning. He had an actual goal, he had rivals, he partook in the tournaments (except for that one insignificant tournament from the Decolora Islands arc) he had a gimmick/personality and several episodes devoted to his gimmicks/persoanlity, and he was made to contrast and play off Iris... while he didn't really go anywhere in the end, I think it's clear the writers wanted him to actually do stuff and not just sit in the background like Brock v2.



You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series? How is it you knew right away that Iris would leave, but you think Serena has a chance of sticking around? What makes her different? Her crush on Ash? Like that's gonna go anywhere. Also, it seems like Cilan was retired because the writers want to avoid having protags wear out their welcome like Brock arguably did (excluding Ash of course ). This series is likely to last at least another 2.5 years, possibly even longer, I don't think Clemont or Bonnie are gonna stick around after XY is over.

What goal? If I recall correctly, a goal is something you set out to achieve. He was already an accomplished Gym Leader and an A-Class Connoisseur before he met Ash. And he journeyed with Ash simply because he was that impressed by Oshawott using its scalchop...the way it normally it would.

And there is a possibility. What makes her drastically different is that she doesn't have a goal unlike the other female characters. Heck, she wasn't even going to travel with Ash & Co. He invited her. Due to this, she is an open canvas for the writers; they can have their way with how they want her character to be played out, grow, mature. And I just don't think she has a crush on him. Yeah she has blushed here and there, but so have just about every other female companion regarding Ash.

Iris on the other hand was getting stale. There is only so much you can do with a character that aims to master one type, and let's face it-by the end of BW, the writers had practically given up. If there was any indication that they liked Iris and were confident in the fanbase/viewer's love for her as well, then they would have had her travel to Kalos along with Ash (as Misty did with Ash in Johto, rather than introducing newcomer Crystal). Additionally you would have to consider Ash. Naturally, he is going to Kalos empty handed, but Iris has her gang of post powerful Pokes still with her? Ehh no. That would also severely alter episode plots and things such as the Pokemon Smuggler scenario.

And I don't know. If XY is anything like DP (which it is in several dynamics), then we are looking at another 3-4 years of the anime at least.

 

[Ambipom666]

Having more people in the main cast does allow for more Pokémon to be regularly shown.

You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series?

I believe so, yes. It feels like this series has been a reboot of sorts, with the original theme returning, the original Team Rocket motto returning, etc. I'm not saying she will stick around forever, but at least for the next region.

Eh. The English dub theme is just for the English dub and doesn't really have any bearing on anything since the show's made in Japan. Also, Team Rocket returned to using their motto during the Team Plasma arc in BW, so it's not really related to XY. Hell, I might as well argue that BW was a reboot since it only featured new Pokémon, had Ash go back to being effectively a rookie and the learner of the group, changed Team Rocket and got rid of Brock who were mainstays of the show up to that point, gave Ash travel companions who were oddly similar to Misty and Brock (arguably), etc. I don't really see anything especially reboot-y about XY.

While Cilan fills the same role as Brock/Tracey, I really don't think you can bash him the same way. I say the writers really tried with him, at least in the beginning. He had an actual goal, he had rivals, he partook in the tournaments (except for that one insignificant tournament from the Decolora Islands arc) he had a gimmick/personality and several episodes devoted to his gimmicks/persoanlity, and he was made to contrast and play off Iris... while he didn't really go anywhere in the end, I think it's clear the writers wanted him to actually do stuff and not just sit in the background like Brock v2.



You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series? How is it you knew right away that Iris would leave, but you think Serena has a chance of sticking around? What makes her different? Her crush on Ash? Like that's gonna go anywhere. Also, it seems like Cilan was retired because the writers want to avoid having protags wear out their welcome like Brock arguably did (excluding Ash of course ). This series is likely to last at least another 2.5 years, possibly even longer, I don't think Clemont or Bonnie are gonna stick around after XY is over.

What goal? If I recall correctly, a goal is something you set out to achieve. He was already an accomplished Gym Leader and an A-Class Connoisseur before he met Ash. And he journeyed with Ash simply because he was that impressed by Oshawott using its scalchop...the way it normally it would.

And there is a possibility. What makes her drastically different is that she doesn't have a goal unlike the other female characters. Heck, she wasn't even going to travel with Ash & Co. He invited her. Due to this, she is an open canvas for the writers; they can have their way with how they want her character to be played out, grow, mature. And I just don't think she has a crush on him. Yeah she has blushed here and there, but so have just about every other female companion regarding Ash.

Iris on the other hand was getting stale. There is only so much you can do with a character that aims to master one type, and let's face it-by the end of BW, the writers had practically given up. If there was any indication that they liked Iris and were confident in the fanbase/viewer's love for her as well, then they would have had her travel to Kalos along with Ash (as Misty did with Ash in Johto, rather than introducing newcomer Crystal). Additionally you would have to consider Ash. Naturally, he is going to Kalos empty handed, but Iris has her gang of post powerful Pokes still with her? Ehh no. That would also severely alter episode plots and things such as the Pokemon Smuggler scenario.

And I don't know. If XY is anything like DP (which it is in several dynamics), then we are looking at another 3-4 years of the anime at least.

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't Cilan trying to become the top class of Connoisseur or something like that? Also, we have no idea what Serena will be like at the end of XY so "Iris was stale at the end of BW" is hardly an argument. While she could stay into the next series, for all we know she could become even more controversial than Iris.

 

[Alola]

Having more people in the main cast does allow for more Pokémon to be regularly shown.

You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series?

I believe so, yes. It feels like this series has been a reboot of sorts, with the original theme returning, the original Team Rocket motto returning, etc. I'm not saying she will stick around forever, but at least for the next region.

Eh. The English dub theme is just for the English dub and doesn't really have any bearing on anything since the show's made in Japan. Also, Team Rocket returned to using their motto during the Team Plasma arc in BW, so it's not really related to XY. Hell, I might as well argue that BW was a reboot since it only featured new Pokémon, had Ash go back to being effectively a rookie and the learner of the group, changed Team Rocket and got rid of Brock who were mainstays of the show up to that point, gave Ash travel companions who were oddly similar to Misty and Brock (arguably), etc. I don't really see anything especially reboot-y about XY.

While Cilan fills the same role as Brock/Tracey, I really don't think you can bash him the same way. I say the writers really tried with him, at least in the beginning. He had an actual goal, he had rivals, he partook in the tournaments (except for that one insignificant tournament from the Decolora Islands arc) he had a gimmick/personality and several episodes devoted to his gimmicks/persoanlity, and he was made to contrast and play off Iris... while he didn't really go anywhere in the end, I think it's clear the writers wanted him to actually do stuff and not just sit in the background like Brock v2.



You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series? How is it you knew right away that Iris would leave, but you think Serena has a chance of sticking around? What makes her different? Her crush on Ash? Like that's gonna go anywhere. Also, it seems like Cilan was retired because the writers want to avoid having protags wear out their welcome like Brock arguably did (excluding Ash of course ). This series is likely to last at least another 2.5 years, possibly even longer, I don't think Clemont or Bonnie are gonna stick around after XY is over.

What goal? If I recall correctly, a goal is something you set out to achieve. He was already an accomplished Gym Leader and an A-Class Connoisseur before he met Ash. And he journeyed with Ash simply because he was that impressed by Oshawott using its scalchop...the way it normally it would.

And there is a possibility. What makes her drastically different is that she doesn't have a goal unlike the other female characters. Heck, she wasn't even going to travel with Ash & Co. He invited her. Due to this, she is an open canvas for the writers; they can have their way with how they want her character to be played out, grow, mature. And I just don't think she has a crush on him. Yeah she has blushed here and there, but so have just about every other female companion regarding Ash.

Iris on the other hand was getting stale. There is only so much you can do with a character that aims to master one type, and let's face it-by the end of BW, the writers had practically given up. If there was any indication that they liked Iris and were confident in the fanbase/viewer's love for her as well, then they would have had her travel to Kalos along with Ash (as Misty did with Ash in Johto, rather than introducing newcomer Crystal). Additionally you would have to consider Ash. Naturally, he is going to Kalos empty handed, but Iris has her gang of post powerful Pokes still with her? Ehh no. That would also severely alter episode plots and things such as the Pokemon Smuggler scenario.

And I don't know. If XY is anything like DP (which it is in several dynamics), then we are looking at another 3-4 years of the anime at least.

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't Cilan trying to become the top class of Connoisseur or something like that? Also, we have no idea what Serena will be like at the end of XY so "Iris was stale at the end of BW" is hardly an argument. While she could stay into the next series, for all we know she could become even more controversial than Iris.

Above A is S-Class. Cilan never explicitly stated that that was his ultimate goal. Nor did he give that as a reason to travel with Ash.

You're right about Serena's future. She could become even more controversial than Iris. However, Iris being stale is an argument/ideal/etc as there was nothing left for her to do with Ash. She wants to master and learn about Dragon types, and she has the Opelucid Gym Leader position waiting for her. Her going another lap around with Ash through a region wouldn't help her with her goals as much as she seeking out this experience herself (case in point, her visit to Clair, catching another Dragon Gible, seeing Rayquaza, enhancing her understanding Dragon type ability etc). And anyway, the majority of people/fans/etc were tired of her and ready for another female character.

 

[Ambipom666]

I totally agree about Iris, I just don't think Serena's affection for Ash and lack of goal make her any less likely to get the boot at the end of XY, at least not yet.

 

[Pokemaster97]

The problem that I've always seen with them is that the writers seem to give them goals that are really too open ended to effectively work with. Unlike "Pokemon Master" or "Pokemon Coordinator" which has visual progress being shown over time, be it with badges or ribbons, with goals such as "Pokemon Breeder" or "Pokemon Researcher" it becomes difficult to find specific things for them to do. This can even extend to Misty and Iris a bit, with their goals of "Water/Dragon type Master" respectively. Besides mentioning their goal in passing, or doing an occasional goal related activity in a filler, they really do not do much with them, which often leads them to being forgotten on the back burner.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Above A is S-Class. Cilan never explicitly stated that that was his ultimate goal. Nor did he give that as a reason to travel with Ash.

You're right about Serena's future. She could become even more controversial than Iris. However, Iris being stale is an argument/ideal/etc as there was nothing left for her to do with Ash. She wants to master and learn about Dragon types, and she has the Opelucid Gym Leader position waiting for her. Her going another lap around with Ash through a region wouldn't help her with her goals as much as she seeking out this experience herself (case in point, her visit to Clair, catching another Dragon Gible, seeing Rayquaza, enhancing her understanding Dragon type ability etc). And anyway, the majority of people/fans/etc were tired of her and ready for another female character.

He maybe didn't gave it as reason behind joining Ash, but Cilan as established A-class connoisseur still expressed more than once big interest and passion for conoisseur calling getting into rivalry with Burgundy with both following same profession. Or other connoisseurs challenging them through battle or clashing beliefs of what pokenmon would be suitable, best to work with for other trainers. Like it was case with another A class connoisseur Ricard and starting trainer Marigold for example.

Cilan may have never explicitly stated how he wants to reach S-class rank but based on his love and pride he holded as conoisseur though there was no reason not to deduce how he wanted to become best in that field imo. Otherwise he could have just stayed at B or C rank never having any motivation to reach next step, but as evidenced he worked his way forward and entered Connoisseur tests at some point to earn A-class position. Indicating how he wasn't content with lower places wanting to become better.

Usually person which follows some profession, especially in pokemon world aims to become best in that field, learning and sharping his abilities as much as he/she can in attempt of reaching highest position and become renowned, honored in that career.

We could have already seen Cilan passion for improving his trainer abilities wanting to develop more creative battle style and new, more effective battle strategy after Ash left impression on him. Coming to conclusion how being in company with him and by traveling experiencing all kind of adventures, meeting pokemon, trainers or entering tournaments would allow him to learn and develop much more than he could if he stayed at gym.

Same principle could be applied to Connoisseur calling with based on Cilan passion and determination being more likely than not how he wanted to reach highest rank in that profession as well. Becoming true expert, famous and known in that field and wold of other Connoisseurs eventually opening his own shop. Regardless if it was ever directly stated in anime or not as far as im concerned.

As for Iris staying power, reason why she was replaced is most likely because ever siunce MIsty removal writers ratgher want to include new girls in main cast to better go in correlation with new games and their npromotion along with liking to intriduce new "eye candy" (female fabservice)for male audience as directly stated in that infamous interview with mr. Hidaka in interview from 2008 on pokebeach, to tey out newe designs Ken Sugimori comes up with.

Regardles of how popular female companion is, her untapped potential to do continuation of szory and unresolved plots has no bearing over her being kept or not. Otherwise Misty, May or Dawn wouldn't end up replaced.

Same applies to Iris, with her reception from fans on English forums not having any influence on for how long she is going to last. Needless to say fans on forums makes only small drop in sea of pokemon fanbase wuth num,ber being measured in millions. Not being veracious indication of someone popularity on larger scasle.

In addition Iris quest of dragon master involved traveling, so whether she continued traveling with Ash or on her own i don't think it would have played any difference in her progesion as fuiture dragon master. Introduction of Clair was just plotline, foreshadowing writers came up with to justify Iris removal from main anime and provide reasoning to replace her with someone else. Considering how presence of E4 of dragon types Drasna(which is much more powerful and recognized as dragon trainer) from Kalos could have just as easily be used for same purpose in Iris story serving as vector to prompt her going on journey through Kalos saga.

Reasoning behind what i said:

Spoiler

With writers introducing new tasks she would need to pass in order to become dragon master. We only know that Drayden is dragon master but its still left on large part uncleared what tasks someone needs to overcome and prove himself as worthy enough to warrant title of being perceived as trainer which achieved mastery over said type. Creating connection between her and new legendary pokemon in 6th generation prompting character to travel there, receive new pokemon and develop existing ones like Axew(in 6th generation mascot status wouldnt hold him back anymore) , receive new rival or continue with existing one( i feel rivalry with Langley have room left to do more)etc. Do research about completely new fairy type investigating their both strong and weak points and how to develop quality defense for dragon types, and as such making her more skilled ad coordinated with type coming closer to master title.

Developed characters can go forward if viable sequel is made by building up on what was made before evolving and reaching next step. Granted we never saw Iris career containing defined steps, some sort of system through wehich her progression could be measured. But i find that writers were limited in what they can do since she use one of most rare and scarce types out there(dragons),not having enough variety as type on its own and substance to create benchmarks (chain of events focusing solely on her career and dragons)through which she could actively advance. For same reason her goal was given relatively simple route requiring only to evolve Axew and learn to understand dragon feelings .
Only character which aimed to become type master and i felt had enough stamina, material to make viable chain of competitions through which growth could be more reliably measured was Misty imo if Whirl Cup(introduced as legit tournament which expanded on water master title drawing connection between type masters and Alpha, Omega title) was anything to go by seeming like interesting concept. More than Iris since water is most widespread and common type out there, having enough variety and pokemon to choose from to create events spread over region through which we could see growth. Not to mention knowing her fangirling over Lorelei they could take her toward E4 direction trying to live up to her idol. But since she was in anime at time when formula was more focused on Ash and his companions helping him to learn ropes as trainer becoming better its understandable why this didn't happened with more active steps in that career not being made until late Johto.

Anyway im going of tangent in here(apologies for this) but what im trying to say is how someone popularity which now aplies to Serena case and reception from fans usually don't play and impact on him/her staying for next generation. Serena could stay in theory(writers breaked patterns before, they could again), but in essence based on games and what would be most proficient way to promote them, how compatible character is for next generation and whether anime would benefit more from his stay or not taking in account various side factors along with most importantly writers own desire, wish to do more with characters plays mai world in someone staying or not.

 

[Alola]

Above A is S-Class. Cilan never explicitly stated that that was his ultimate goal. Nor did he give that as a reason to travel with Ash.

You're right about Serena's future. She could become even more controversial than Iris. However, Iris being stale is an argument/ideal/etc as there was nothing left for her to do with Ash. She wants to master and learn about Dragon types, and she has the Opelucid Gym Leader position waiting for her. Her going another lap around with Ash through a region wouldn't help her with her goals as much as she seeking out this experience herself (case in point, her visit to Clair, catching another Dragon Gible, seeing Rayquaza, enhancing her understanding Dragon type ability etc). And anyway, the majority of people/fans/etc were tired of her and ready for another female character.

He maybe didn't gave it as reason behind joining Ash, but Cilan as established A-class connoisseur still expressed more than once big interest and passion for conoisseur calling getting into rivalry with Burgundy with both following same profession. Or other connoisseurs challenging them through battle or clashing beliefs of what pokenmon would be suitable, best to work with for other trainers. Like it was case with another A class connoisseur Ricard and starting trainer Marigold for example.

Cilan may have never explicitly stated how he wants to reach S-class rank but based on his love and pride he holded as conoisseur though there was no reason not to deduce how he wanted to become best in that field imo. Otherwise he could have just stayed at B or C rank never having any motivation to reach next step, but as evidenced he worked his way forward and entered Connoisseur tests at some point to earn A-class position. Indicating how he wasn't content with lower places wanting to become better.

Usually person which follows some profession, especially in pokemon world aims to become best in that field, learning and sharping his abilities as much as he/she can in attempt of reaching highest position and become renowned, honored in that career.

We could have already seen Cilan passion for improving his trainer abilities wanting to develop more creative battle style and new, more effective battle strategy after Ash left impression on him. Coming to conclusion how being in company with him and by traveling experiencing all kind of adventures, meeting pokemon, trainers or entering tournaments would allow him to learn and develop much more than he could if he stayed at gym.

Same principle could be applied to Connoisseur calling with based on Cilan passion and determination being more likely than not how he wanted to reach highest rank in that profession as well. Becoming true expert, famous and known in that field and wold of other Connoisseurs eventually opening his own shop. Regardless if it was ever directly stated in anime or not as far as im concerned.

As for Iris staying power, reason why she was replaced is most likely because ever siunce MIsty removal writers ratgher want to include new girls in main cast to better go in correlation with new games and their npromotion along with liking to intriduce new "eye candy" (female fabservice)for male audience as directly stated in that infamous interview with mr. Hidaka in interview from 2008 on pokebeach, to tey out newe designs Ken Sugimori comes up with.

Regardles of how popular female companion is, her untapped potential to do continuation of szory and unresolved plots has no bearing over her being kept or not. Otherwise Misty, May or Dawn wouldn't end up replaced.

Same applies to Iris, with her reception from fans on English forums not having any influence on for how long she is going to last. Needless to say fans on forums makes only small drop in sea of pokemon fanbase wuth num,ber being measured in millions. Not being veracious indication of someone popularity on larger scasle.

In addition Iris quest of dragon master involved traveling, so whether she continued traveling with Ash or on her own i don't think it would have played any difference in her progesion as fuiture dragon master. Introduction of Clair was just plotline, foreshadowing writers came up with to justify Iris removal from main anime and provide reasoning to replace her with someone else. Considering how presence of E4 of dragon types Drasna(which is much more powerful and recognized as dragon trainer) from Kalos could have just as easily be used for same purpose in Iris story serving as vector to prompt her going on journey through Kalos saga.

Reasoning behind what i said:

Spoiler

With writers introducing new tasks she would need to pass in order to become dragon master. We only know that Drayden is dragon master but its still left on large part uncleared what tasks someone needs to overcome and prove himself as worthy enough to warrant title of being perceived as trainer which achieved mastery over said type. Creating connection between her and new legendary pokemon in 6th generation prompting character to travel there, receive new pokemon and develop existing ones like Axew(in 6th generation mascot status wouldnt hold him back anymore) , receive new rival or continue with existing one( i feel rivalry with Langley have room left to do more)etc. Do research about completely new fairy type investigating their both strong and weak points and how to develop quality defense for dragon types, and as such making her more skilled ad coordinated with type coming closer to master title.

Developed characters can go forward if viable sequel is made by building up on what was made before evolving and reaching next step. Granted we never saw Iris career containing defined steps, some sort of system through wehich her progression could be measured. But i find that writers were limited in what they can do since she use one of most rare and scarce types out there(dragons),not having enough variety as type on its own and substance to create benchmarks (chain of events focusing solely on her career and dragons)through which she could actively advance. For same reason her goal was given relatively simple route requiring only to evolve Axew and learn to understand dragon feelings .
Only character which aimed to become type master and i felt had enough stamina, material to make viable chain of competitions through which growth could be more reliably measured was Misty imo if Whirl Cup(introduced as legit tournament which expanded on water master title drawing connection between type masters and Alpha, Omega title) was anything to go by seeming like interesting concept. More than Iris since water is most widespread and common type out there, having enough variety and pokemon to choose from to create events spread over region through which we could see growth. Not to mention knowing her fangirling over Lorelei they could take her toward E4 direction trying to live up to her idol. But since she was in anime at time when formula was more focused on Ash and his companions helping him to learn ropes as trainer becoming better its understandable why this didn't happened with more active steps in that career not being made until late Johto.

Anyway im going of tangent in here(apologies for this) but what im trying to say is how someone popularity which now aplies to Serena case and reception from fans usually don't play and impact on him/her staying for next generation. Serena could stay in theory(writers breaked patterns before, they could again), but in essence based on games and what would be most proficient way to promote them, how compatible character is for next generation and whether anime would benefit more from his stay or not taking in account various side factors along with most importantly writers own desire, wish to do more with characters plays mai world in someone staying or not.

Okay, I don't mean to be rude but it was very difficult to read all of this given the many grammatical and spelling errors. So I mainly just skimmed.

I'll just respond to the last point and the apparent gist:
-It can be popularity of the character that has the writers make Serena stay. If they like her and want to keep her, then they will. It isn't so much about marketing/promoting and the anime doesn't follow the games 100% of time. Future games can still be promoted even without their female characters in the main cast. In fact, they don't even have to debut in the anime! (evident with no Leaf, Crystal, Hilda, or Rosa). If they were really bothered by it, they would do something akin to Lyra's anime debut.

-Regarding Serena's potential, well at this point it isn't limited. May and Dawn are Coordinators, so naturally they will be featured where Contests are available.
Yes Dawn came back during BW (where there were no Contests), but that was for a visit, NOT another trip around a region. Thus a reason her and May's character did not continue with Ash as he ventured into regions with no contests. The same applies to Misty and Iris. Misty has her Gym Leader position to uphold while Iris is en route to the same position. While she may be able to meet Drasna for an episode, that would be a waste of time when she could be getting that same Dragon experience and more on her own. It's like if you want to be an actor or any other career-why go to a general college when you can attend a specialized one/vocational school instead, that will help your career exceedingly more than the general college? This applies to Iris, with the "general college" being going to Kalos with Ash and the "specialized one/vocational school" being journeying on her own instead. So this leads us back to Serena who has no goal, no obligation, no anything-so she would be the best candidate to travel with Ash to the next region (if it were to happen).

-Cilan may have had that all in mind, but it was largely unspoken. And that's the problem. So due to an inferred goal that wasn't actively pursued, and given everything I listed earlier, that is why he is viewed as largely uneventful character. Furthermore I don't really consider Burgundy a rival because:
~She never really improved herself or her evaluations over the course of the series. Sure she got some new Pokemon, but that was it. Still hateful, still bitter, still vengeful by the time of BW's conclusion.
~Their "rivalry" was started over the butthurt Burgundy still felt from Cilan's initial evaluation of her. So, it is clearly more of a vendetta then anything (which has been alluded to several times in the anime)
~He regards her more as beginner he hopes that will improve, rather than an equal

So given that and that one/two time COTD because the writers realized "Hey, we need another Connoisseur to make the profession seem substantial!" there isn't really much to write home about for Cilan. I don't even know where this is going now. The point is, Cilan sucks and fits in the same trope as Brock, Tracey and somewhat Max.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Okay, I don't mean to be rude but it was very difficult to read all of this given the many grammatical and spelling errors. So I mainly just skimmed.

English isn't my native language so sometimes i make mistakes, my apologies for that.

I'll just respond to the last point and the apparent gist:
-It can be popularity of the character that has the writers make Serena stay. If they like her and want to keep her, then they will. It isn't so much about marketing/promoting and the anime doesn't follow the games 100% of time. Future games can still be promoted even without their female characters in the main cast. In fact, they don't even have to debut in the anime! (evident with no Leaf, Crystal, Hilda, or Rosa). If they were really bothered by it, they would do something akin to Lyra's anime debut.

Im not saying she will necessarily end up replaced, and personally i myself wouldn't mind if female companion continues developing, learning new things and getting more fleshing out sticking around for change. Especially with whole process of selfsearching and trying to find what goal suits her best. Im only mentioning how all previous girl companions(some more, some less)also had potential, unexplored aspects in characterization and several unfinished things about their dreams which offered more than enough juice for sequel, but in end this had no bearing over their stay.

So in Serena case while she may have potential and may end up popular at end of the day its not fandom , but writers which make devisions and planning over forming main cast for every new generation. Being in end their call if Serena will continue on to 7th gen or not. As realist im leaning more toward no though knowing staff reasioning behind cast changes. Because no matter how liked and popular character is if writers don't have motivatioon and desire in keeping him around it wont help.

-Regarding Serena's potential, well at this point it isn't limited. May and Dawn are Coordinators, so naturally they will be featured where Contests are available.
Yes Dawn came back during BW (where there were no Contests), but that was for a visit, NOT another trip around a region. Thus a reason her and May's character did not continue with Ash as he ventured into regions with no contests. The same applies to Misty and Iris. Misty has her Gym Leader position to uphold while Iris is en route to the same position. While she may be able to meet Drasna for an episode, that would be a waste of time when she could be getting that same Dragon experience and more on her own. It's like if you want to be an actor or any other career-why go to a general college when you can attend a specialized one/vocational school instead, that will help your career exceedingly more than the general college? This applies to Iris, with the "general college" being going to Kalos with Ash and the "specialized one/vocational school" being journeying on her own instead. So this leads us back to Serena who has no goal, no obligation, no anything-so she would be the best candidate to travel with Ash to the next region (if it were to happen).

All of this are artificial reasons behind main girls leaving Ash though.
Ash as himself doesn't limit how much his companions are going to be fleshed out and developed being solely writers call and level of motivation in how far they want to go with someone. Comparing Ash way of being handled to way others are going to be treated is like comparing apples with oranges to be honest.

Because their development isn't dependent on Ash career and path writers charted with each companion career being designed that it can coexist with Ash's learning as much as he can be it traveling alone or in company of other friends.

For example Misty gym position didn't stopped her from traveling through whole OS leaving it in first place to pursue water master carerer(just like it never posed obstacle for Brock, Cilan and now Clemont), until writers came up with last minute excuse of older sisters going on trip forcing her to go back and take things over due to their irresponsibility regardless of character rather wanting to continue traveling since competing in tournaments like Whirl Cup, events like Seaking competition , meeting other experts and strong tryiners exploring world is required to become water master and live up to E4 status someday as her idol Lorelei.

With Iris she isn't tied to Opelucid gym nor is obligated to take over Drayden place, with her unwilingness toward it and bad experiences from childhood in that city indicating how she may very well not end up as gym leader. Regardless if she continued traveling with Ash or going on her own result would end up same receiving same amount of experience asnd learning toward her career. Because Kalos also has dragon experts, even more prominent ones such as E4 dragon users around who whole arc of multiple episides could have been conducted providing more experuence than gym leader like Clair. Has new dragon pokemon and concept of mega evolution which is only known in Kalos region still being veiled with mystery. Giving Iris opportunity to learn how to unlock full potential of her dragon pokemon understanding process of mega evolution and how to brting their primordial strength on surface bonding with them on closer level than ever before to achieve this(expected from future dragon master).

Kalos also has legendary pokemon, tournaments, trainers and on top of that introduced biggest enemy to dragon pokemon fairy type. Giving her arguably chance to learn to cover up dragon weakness and develop counterstrategy against such type of pokemon by directly observing and learning about fairy pokemon in Kalos, improving on her understanding of dragon nature and how to improve her skills even more by together getting over their biggest weakness.

Ill admit how May and Dawn are more tied to their respective regions due to being playable female characters, their representatives with writers having more liberty to transfer characters with anime exclusive dreams(like Misty or Iris) to another regions than its case with coordinators. Due to anime only careers not deoending on game quests with amount of focus, tournaments or steps required for someone to come closer toward it steeming solely from writer imagination where, when and how much attention its going to receive. Allowing to take such dreams through multiple directions and story being interpretated in more than one way due to not having restrictions like game quests in theory.

However if writers truly wanted they could had provide reasoning behind May or Dawn continuing past their respective gens. Especially in May case since Sinnoh still had contest in games.

With my point being how in writers world its easy to create both reason for leaving or having character join/rejoin Ash on journey. Power of plot dictates what will happen and just like any other girl before Serena had no reason for departure until writers invented one same applies to current girl. In case she gets replaced, which judging by past examples has pretty high chance of happening.

-Cilan may have had that all in mind, but it was largely unspoken. And that's the problem. So due to an inferred goal that wasn't actively pursued, and given everything I listed earlier, that is why he is viewed as largely uneventful character. Furthermore I don't really consider Burgundy a rival because:
~She never really improved herself or her evaluations over the course of the series. Sure she got some new Pokemon, but that was it. Still hateful, still bitter, still vengeful by the time of BW's conclusion.
~Their "rivalry" was started over the butthurt Burgundy still felt from Cilan's initial evaluation of her. So, it is clearly more of a vendetta then anything (which has been alluded to several times in the anime)
~He regards her more as beginner he hopes that will improve, rather than an equal

So given that and that one/two time COTD because the writers realized "Hey, we need another Connoisseur to make the profession seem substantial!" there isn't really much to write home about for Cilan. I don't even know where this is going now. The point is, Cilan sucks and fits in the same trope as Brock, Tracey and somewhat Max.

It seems we are viewing male companion roles from different angle, which is fine. But in some show not every character is expected to receive lot of character development, fleshing out, introspection of its feelings and struggles. In pokemon anime such things are usually reserved for female companions representing pathos, character which is going to be emotionally explored, share its fears and struggles on more extensive lervel with viewers and in accordance to that gain more attention toward its career and desires so that kids could relate to them and see them evolve, grow.

With Cilan he worked in similar manner like Brock for example did. In sense of serve more purpose of older parental figure in cast which brings order ,settle down conflicts, takes care of Ash and co while providing humor, entertainment value and good dynamic within cast. Sometimes male companions receive growth and they get focus to be involved within episode plots exploring on their interests(especially in Cilan case through special tests for connoisseurs evaluating their craft, rivals like Burgundy etc)), but in nutshell they usually aren't intended to receive same level of exposure like Ash or main girl does. That could change with way Clemont is currently treated though.

Regardless Cilan and Brock generally speaking fulfilled their roles more than good enough in my book. Acting as necessary foil to balance out interactions between Ash and main girls, allow to take group chemistry in multiple directions, bringing bigger variety in characterization and fleshing out of each other personalitiesn through build of relationship. As such making story more engaging, deeper and meaningful to follow.

While often serving as backbone, person of bigger authority in main cast to who Ash and others could rely and receive moral support, encouragement and motivation. Receive advice, have someone to keep younger, more rash characters out of danger and take care of them contribuiting through main story through their knowledge, wiser attitude and more experience. By often healing injured pokemon, preventing Ash from mindlessly rushing into dasnger, helping him about battles while through their own incentive resolving isssues related to infuriated pokemon, criminal organizations or disasters caused by human factor. As directly brought up through many examples i made in previous post related to Brock, Cilan and even to smaller extent Tracey during his very short stay.

Provoding grown up, familiar face to who viewers can look up to, identify some anime region with and view pokemon anime from perspective of older, more mature characters. Rather than only following 10 year old kids on journey making main cast more varied and interesting to follow as far as im concerned.

Needless to say just because their dreams and stories weren't treated on same level of importance like it was case with girls it wouldn't be fair to disregard how each of them had its own backstory, plots and dreams they pursued. With writers starting to give more focus to male companions as anime continued to go fiorward.

If you find them unnecessary and isn't fond of such characters i can understand and respect your point of view, but to me in all honesty each and every character in this show who traveled with Ash was important bringing substance, entertainment value and impact on plot. Because importance doesn't lie only in someone career but in how integral and influencing on other characters and plot someone can be as well through all those small, on first hand unnoticed but in longer run very important things in keeping everything on hold.

EDIT:
PS: Anyway we are starting to go of topic with talk about Serena and other female protagonist roles and staying power in pokemon anime, with this thread not being most suitable one for this topic. So maybe talk about girls, Serena etc we should continue through private messaging in case you wish to continue?

 

[Alola]

English isn't my native language so sometimes i make mistakes, my apologies for that.

I'll just respond to the last point and the apparent gist:
-It can be popularity of the character that has the writers make Serena stay. If they like her and want to keep her, then they will. It isn't so much about marketing/promoting and the anime doesn't follow the games 100% of time. Future games can still be promoted even without their female characters in the main cast. In fact, they don't even have to debut in the anime! (evident with no Leaf, Crystal, Hilda, or Rosa). If they were really bothered by it, they would do something akin to Lyra's anime debut.

Im not saying she will necessarily end up replaced, and personally i myself wouldn't mind if female companion continues developing, learning new things and getting more fleshing out sticking around for change. Especially with whole process of selfsearching and trying to find what goal suits her best. Im only mentioning how all previous girl companions(some more, some less)also had potential, unexplored aspects in characterization and several unfinished things about their dreams which offered more than enough juice for sequel, but in end this had no bearing over their stay.

So in Serena case while she may have potential and may end up popular at end of the day its not fandom , but writers which make devisions and planning over forming main cast for every new generation. Being in end their call if Serena will continue on to 7th gen or not. As realist im leaning more toward no though knowing staff reasioning behind cast changes. Because no matter how liked and popular character is if writers don't have motivatioon and desire in keeping him around it wont help.

-Regarding Serena's potential, well at this point it isn't limited. May and Dawn are Coordinators, so naturally they will be featured where Contests are available.
Yes Dawn came back during BW (where there were no Contests), but that was for a visit, NOT another trip around a region. Thus a reason her and May's character did not continue with Ash as he ventured into regions with no contests. The same applies to Misty and Iris. Misty has her Gym Leader position to uphold while Iris is en route to the same position. While she may be able to meet Drasna for an episode, that would be a waste of time when she could be getting that same Dragon experience and more on her own. It's like if you want to be an actor or any other career-why go to a general college when you can attend a specialized one/vocational school instead, that will help your career exceedingly more than the general college? This applies to Iris, with the "general college" being going to Kalos with Ash and the "specialized one/vocational school" being journeying on her own instead. So this leads us back to Serena who has no goal, no obligation, no anything-so she would be the best candidate to travel with Ash to the next region (if it were to happen).

All of this are artificial reasons behind main girls leaving Ash though.
Ash as himself doesn't limit how much his companions are going to be fleshed out and developed being solely writers call and level of motivation in how far they want to go with someone. Comparing Ash way of being handled to way others are going to be treated is like comparing apples with oranges to be honest.

Because their development isn't dependent on Ash career and path writers charted with each companion career being designed that it can coexist with Ash's learning as much as he can be it traveling alone or in company of other friends.

For example Misty gym position didn't stopped her from traveling through whole OS leaving it in first place to pursue water master carerer(just like it never posed obstacle for Brock, Cilan and now Clemont), until writers came up with last minute excuse of older sisters going on trip forcing her to go back and take things over due to their irresponsibility regardless of character rather wanting to continue traveling since competing in tournaments like Whirl Cup, events like Seaking competition , meeting other experts and strong tryiners exploring world is required to become water master and live up to E4 status someday as her idol Lorelei.

With Iris she isn't tied to Opelucid gym nor is obligated to take over Drayden place, with her unwilingness toward it and bad experiences from childhood in that city indicating how she may very well not end up as gym leader. Regardless if she continued traveling with Ash or going on her own result would end up same receiving same amount of experience asnd learning toward her career. Because Kalos also has dragon experts, even more prominent ones such as E4 dragon users around who whole arc of multiple episides could have been conducted providing more experuence than gym leader like Clair. Has new dragon pokemon and concept of mega evolution which is only known in Kalos region still being veiled with mystery. Giving Iris opportunity to learn how to unlock full potential of her dragon pokemon understanding process of mega evolution and how to brting their primordial strength on surface bonding with them on closer level than ever before to achieve this(expected from future dragon master).

Kalos also has legendary pokemon, tournaments, trainers and on top of that introduced biggest enemy to dragon pokemon fairy type. Giving her arguably chance to learn to cover up dragon weakness and develop counterstrategy against such type of pokemon by directly observing and learning about fairy pokemon in Kalos, improving on her understanding of dragon nature and how to improve her skills even more by together getting over their biggest weakness.

Ill admit how May and Dawn are more tied to their respective regions due to being playable female characters, their representatives with writers having more liberty to transfer characters with anime exclusive dreams(like Misty or Iris) to another regions than its case with coordinators. Due to anime only careers not deoending on game quests with amount of focus, tournaments or steps required for someone to come closer toward it steeming solely from writer imagination where, when and how much attention its going to receive. Allowing to take such dreams through multiple directions and story being interpretated in more than one way due to not having restrictions like game quests in theory.

However if writers truly wanted they could had provide reasoning behind May or Dawn continuing past their respective gens. Especially in May case since Sinnoh still had contest in games.

With my point being how in writers world its easy to create both reason for leaving or having character join/rejoin Ash on journey. Power of plot dictates what will happen and just like any other girl before Serena had no reason for departure until writers invented one same applies to current girl. In case she gets replaced, which judging by past examples has pretty high chance of happening.

-Cilan may have had that all in mind, but it was largely unspoken. And that's the problem. So due to an inferred goal that wasn't actively pursued, and given everything I listed earlier, that is why he is viewed as largely uneventful character. Furthermore I don't really consider Burgundy a rival because:
~She never really improved herself or her evaluations over the course of the series. Sure she got some new Pokemon, but that was it. Still hateful, still bitter, still vengeful by the time of BW's conclusion.
~Their "rivalry" was started over the butthurt Burgundy still felt from Cilan's initial evaluation of her. So, it is clearly more of a vendetta then anything (which has been alluded to several times in the anime)
~He regards her more as beginner he hopes that will improve, rather than an equal

So given that and that one/two time COTD because the writers realized "Hey, we need another Connoisseur to make the profession seem substantial!" there isn't really much to write home about for Cilan. I don't even know where this is going now. The point is, Cilan sucks and fits in the same trope as Brock, Tracey and somewhat Max.

It seems we are viewing male companion roles from different angle, which is fine. But in some show not every character is expected to receive lot of character development, fleshing out, introspection of its feelings and struggles. In pokemon anime such things are usually reserved for female companions representing pathos, character which is going to be emotionally explored, share its fears and struggles on more extensive lervel with viewers and in accordance to that gain more attention toward its career and desires so that kids could relate to them and see them evolve, grow.

With Cilan he worked in similar manner like Brock for example did. In sense of serve more purpose of older parental figure in cast which brings order ,settle down conflicts, takes care of Ash and co while providing humor, entertainment value and good dynamic within cast. Sometimes male companions receive growth and they get focus to be involved within episode plots exploring on their interests(especially in Cilan case through special tests for connoisseurs evaluating their craft, rivals like Burgundy etc)), but in nutshell they usually aren't intended to receive same level of exposure like Ash or main girl does. That could change with way Clemont is currently treated though.

Regardless Cilan and Brock generally speaking fulfilled their roles more than good enough in my book. Acting as necessary foil to balance out interactions between Ash and main girls, allow to take group chemistry in multiple directions, bringing bigger variety in characterization and fleshing out of each other personalitiesn through build of relationship. As such making story more engaging, deeper and meaningful to follow.

While often serving as backbone, person of bigger authority in main cast to who Ash and others could rely and receive moral support, encouragement and motivation. Receive advice, have someone to keep younger, more rash characters out of danger and take care of them contribuiting through main story through their knowledge, wiser attitude and more experience. By often healing injured pokemon, preventing Ash from mindlessly rushing into dasnger, helping him about battles while through their own incentive resolving isssues related to infuriated pokemon, criminal organizations or disasters caused by human factor. As directly brought up through many examples i made in previous post related to Brock, Cilan and even to smaller extent Tracey during his very short stay.

Provoding grown up, familiar face to who viewers can look up to, identify some anime region with and view pokemon anime from perspective of older, more mature characters. Rather than only following 10 year old kids on journey making main cast more varied and interesting to follow as far as im concerned.

Needless to say just because their dreams and stories weren't treated on same level of importance like it was case with girls it wouldn't be fair to disregard how each of them had its own backstory, plots and dreams they pursued. With writers starting to give more focus to male companions as anime continued to go fiorward.

If you find them unnecessary and isn't fond of such characters i can understand and respect your point of view, but to me in all honesty each and every character in this show who traveled with Ash was important bringing substance, entertainment value and impact on plot. Because importance doesn't lie only in someone career but in how integral and influencing on other characters and plot someone can be as well through all those small, on first hand unnoticed but in longer run very important things in keeping everything on hold.

EDIT:
PS: Anyway we are starting to go of topic with talk about Serena and other female protagonist roles and staying power in pokemon anime, with this thread not being most suitable one for this topic. So maybe talk about girls, Serena etc we should continue through private messaging in case you wish to continue?

Nope! I think at this point we can agree to disagree and I respect your ideals.

 

[Satoshi Da Ze]

I didn't see Takeshi lacking that much participation. Now Kenji... There's a reason he should be called sandwich making robot. That's all he is. Oh and he draws, I guess.


Also, how Masato didn't act like a child? He ACTED tough and mature, but that was just it, an act. There were multiple instances in AG we got to see his act crumble down and him throwing emotional tantrums. But whenever he did, people complained. Which I find ironic.

 

[Silktree]

The problem that I've always seen with them is that the writers seem to give them goals that are really too open ended to effectively work with. Unlike "Pokemon Master" or "Pokemon Coordinator" which has visual progress being shown over time, be it with badges or ribbons, with goals such as "Pokemon Breeder" or "Pokemon Researcher" it becomes difficult to find specific things for them to do. This can even extend to Misty and Iris a bit, with their goals of "Water/Dragon type Master" respectively. Besides mentioning their goal in passing, or doing an occasional goal related activity in a filler, they really do not do much with them, which often leads them to being forgotten on the back burner.

This is a problem with the writing rather than the concepts themselves. How boring would the Pokémon world be if everyone entered battle-oriented competitions to collect symbols of some kind? Very, I'd say.

While Pokémon Pokémon watching and conniseuring are on the boring side in my opinion, breeding and researching have plenty of potential to be interesting if done correctly. A breeder's job should entail providing care for weak or troubled Pokémon, be they wild or trained ones with issues that need to be solved. Brock could have done this even while traveling with Ash; their journeys did lead to several encounters with wild Pokémon or trainers that had problems, but they were quickly resolved and generally lacked depth. I think that the best example for a breeder-oriented arc is the Larvitar one in late Johto, except Ash was the one that got to bond with Larvitar for whatever reason. I also think Brock should have helped Misty unlock Togepi's potential, and both the Stantler and Ninetales episodes come to mind as storylines that were resolved too soon.

Researching? I am not really sure where to begin, but there are plenty of mysteries in the Pokémon world and it is contrived that Ash and co. keep getting glimpses of them without anyone taking an active interest in them. The best reason to go on a journey is to try and understand more about the world. I think that the problem is that the writers themselves aren't really interested in exploring mysteries; they rotate between slice-of-life stories and battle-heavy action with little thought put into either.

As far as a type specialty is concerned, I think it could have worked out well if the writers had just focused on showing the quest of a young trainer (Misty/Iris) to be qualified as a Gym Leader. This ended up happening to Misty as an afterthought (it wasn't her choice to stay in Cerulean) whereas Iris is still traveling with no obvious direction. The writers never tried to address the most important question: How does a type specialist overcome the limitations of a monotype team?

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Nope! I think at this point we can agree to disagree and I respect your ideals.

Ok than, i respect your opinions too. Agree to disagree it is i guess.

This is a problem with the writing rather than the concepts themselves. How boring would the Pokémon world be if everyone entered battle-oriented competitions to collect symbols of some kind? Very, I'd say.

While Pokémon Pokémon watching and conniseuring are on the boring side in my opinion, breeding and researching have plenty of potential to be interesting if done correctly. A breeder's job should entail providing care for weak or troubled Pokémon, be they wild or trained ones with issues that need to be solved. Brock could have done this even while traveling with Ash; their journeys did lead to several encounters with wild Pokémon or trainers that had problems, but they were quickly resolved and generally lacked depth. I think that the best example for a breeder-oriented arc is the Larvitar one in late Johto, except Ash was the one that got to bond with Larvitar for whatever reason. I also think Brock should have helped Misty unlock Togepi's potential, and both the Stantler and Ninetales episodes come to mind as storylines that were resolved too soon.

Researching? I am not really sure where to begin, but there are plenty of mysteries in the Pokémon world and it is contrived that Ash and co. keep getting glimpses of them without anyone taking an active interest in them. The best reason to go on a journey is to try and understand more about the world. I think that the problem is that the writers themselves aren't really interested in exploring mysteries; they rotate between slice-of-life stories and battle-heavy action with little thought put into either.

I agree. One of appealing aspects of Brock character was definitely concept of breeding. Offering mainy interesting details and interesting outlook on alternate ways through which pokemon creatures can be raised. Developed and through lot of patience, love and care being able to extract ther true inner strength and hidden power on surface, just like trainers try to do. Even teaching them attacks and techniques which only through breeding can be obtained(although in anime such rules are usually bypassed being possible to teach pokemon HM/TM attacks without use of items).

There were moments where Brock expertise was put to use in taking care of sick or injured pokemon like baby Stantler, Sharpedo which got posoned with Brock spending whole night with him, injured Nuzleaf or Bagon for example. There were times where Briock interacted with other breeders or pokemon caretakers exchanging experience over food, tips in preparing potions or how to groom pokemon(especially notable ones were Suzie with who he entered somesort of breeder convention, Jaco teaching him about various techniques of pokemon health and how to maintain its fur and skin shiny, Yuma for who he entered conterst trying to win her heart etc).

Along with times when he through his good knowledge about pokemon nature, behavior, attacks etc knew how to resolve prpoblematiuc situations they found themselves in like helping Ash Totodile in his love problems for Azumarill, teaching Ash and May about Donphanm love problems and how they can be pretty irritable when in pairing season, same thing happened with Ursaring on several occasions in OS).

I recall Brock even once mentioned about Misty Togepi lack of any attacks and potential hidden power with her character admitting how she tried to teach him attacks but with no sucess starting to suspect in its magic abilities when magically blowing up mountain(used metronome)to prevent Arbok tank from being crushed or when using teleort., But sadly writers never went further with that utilizing Brock maturity and expertize in helping to bring its true power on surface.

In reality Brock just like Cilan had moments when writers focused on his knowledge and breeding skills learning new things, sharing experience and growing becoming better in preparing food, medicines etc.

But they never gave male characters story arcs, moments of struggling, sefquestioning and unresolved flaws they would have to face with and find strengthz in themselves to overcome them. At least not to same extent like it as case wiuth main girls or Ash. With male sidekicks development coming of often through subtle, sporadic ways. But still when those moments occured they weree usually of high quality imo adding more substance to male compnions casting interesting light onto them. when influencing plot directly or indirectly through their actions.

As far as a type specialty is concerned, I think it could have worked out well if the writers had just focused on showing the quest of a young trainer (Misty/Iris) to be qualified as a Gym Leader. This ended up happening to Misty as an afterthought (it wasn't her choice to stay in Cerulean) whereas Iris is still traveling with no obvious direction. The writers never tried to address the most important question: How does a type specialist overcome the limitations of a monotype team?

Well logic would indicate that point of overcoming mono type weakness is in developing counter techniques and strategy against opposing pokemon which in theory would have upper hand in battle. As we seein with E4 member as strongest type specialists in world their pokemon posess so much resistence, defensive stamina and countermeasures paired with strong offensive abilities that in most cases type advantage plays little influence on outcome of battle. Wallace himself managed to become champoion and one of top trainers in world by just having water team.

As far as type master career goes. So far we know dragon master means becoming strong dragon trainers learning to understand their hearts with title being given from elders of dragon village, while Misty water master career involved becoming strongest water trainer in world with Whirl Cup revealing tasks through which you can prove your worth and become more recogoized among other water experts that way. Having connections to E4 members since they are in games labeled as mono masters and strongest one type trainers in world(which said character aimed/aims to achieve).

Both Iris and Misty careers have interesting premise and ways to be take in many interesting directions to achieve mastery imo, they just weren't enough polished and defined unfortunately.
Knowing what ultimate destination entails and what they want to accomplish, but not being enough explained tasks and way to get there.

 

[Alola]

The problem that I've always seen with them is that the writers seem to give them goals that are really too open ended to effectively work with. Unlike "Pokemon Master" or "Pokemon Coordinator" which has visual progress being shown over time, be it with badges or ribbons, with goals such as "Pokemon Breeder" or "Pokemon Researcher" it becomes difficult to find specific things for them to do. This can even extend to Misty and Iris a bit, with their goals of "Water/Dragon type Master" respectively. Besides mentioning their goal in passing, or doing an occasional goal related activity in a filler, they really do not do much with them, which often leads them to being forgotten on the back burner.

This is a problem with the writing rather than the concepts themselves. How boring would the Pokémon world be if everyone entered battle-oriented competitions to collect symbols of some kind? Very, I'd say.

While Pokémon Pokémon watching and conniseuring are on the boring side in my opinion, breeding and researching have plenty of potential to be interesting if done correctly. A breeder's job should entail providing care for weak or troubled Pokémon, be they wild or trained ones with issues that need to be solved. Brock could have done this even while traveling with Ash; their journeys did lead to several encounters with wild Pokémon or trainers that had problems, but they were quickly resolved and generally lacked depth. I think that the best example for a breeder-oriented arc is the Larvitar one in late Johto, except Ash was the one that got to bond with Larvitar for whatever reason. I also think Brock should have helped Misty unlock Togepi's potential, and both the Stantler and Ninetales episodes come to mind as storylines that were resolved too soon.

Researching? I am not really sure where to begin, but there are plenty of mysteries in the Pokémon world and it is contrived that Ash and co. keep getting glimpses of them without anyone taking an active interest in them. The best reason to go on a journey is to try and understand more about the world. I think that the problem is that the writers themselves aren't really interested in exploring mysteries; they rotate between slice-of-life stories and battle-heavy action with little thought put into either.

As far as a type specialty is concerned, I think it could have worked out well if the writers had just focused on showing the quest of a young trainer (Misty/Iris) to be qualified as a Gym Leader. This ended up happening to Misty as an afterthought (it wasn't her choice to stay in Cerulean) whereas Iris is still traveling with no obvious direction. The writers never tried to address the most important question: How does a type specialist overcome the limitations of a monotype team?

Now that I think about it, it would have been much better is Brock was the one to bond with Larvitar. You're totally right~

 

[Deleted member 72389]

Also, how Masato didn't act like a child? He ACTED tough and mature, but that was just it, an act. There were multiple instances in AG we got to see his act crumble down and him throwing emotional tantrums. But whenever he did, people complained. Which I find ironic.

Gotta agree with that! Max was shown to be the typical know-it-all kind of kid, who just acted like a mature person. Probably because he could have gotten a lot of first-hand knowlege of pokemon from his dad who is a gym leader. But there were times when we got to see the little kid beneath his usual act of toughness.
There was also the time, when he had told Harley that May was scared of Tentacools when she was a little kid, just because Harley had given him an Ice cream Sundae. Perfect example of the little kid hidden inside him.
In fact I just don't understand why people are constantly comparing Max with Bonnie, and using her as a means for dissing his character. Kids can behave in more than one way, and not all the kids really act their age. (Besides, I don't think a lot of girls of Bonnie's age would be proposing to random girls for marrying their older brother) Max's attitude had helped to make the group dynamics interesting, and he even used to add some humor at times.
No doubt Bonnie is a total cutie, and I do like her. But I don't get why she and Max need to be compared all the time.

As for Brock, Cilan and Tracey... obviously they were necessary. Even if they didn't exactly do much in the anime, they are necessary as a third character because this anime is about Ash and Pikachu travelling with friends. Friends as in plural. In fact it was mentioned in the blogs of the ex-director of the anime, Takeshi Shudo, that the show was going to be about Satoshi travelling with his friends. That's why Brock and Misty were introduced in the first place, and we didn't saw Ash travelling all alone.
Now I'll admit that his female travelling companions usually get to do more stuff compared to the male travelling companions, but that's because there's already one guy (Ash himself) getting a lot of spotlight. So they usually give the remaining share of spotlight to the girl and hence obviously the male travelling companion ends up getting the least amount of focus and development (Though this doesn't seem to be the case in XY). But at any rate, it doesn't exactly make them useless.
I don't think just seeing two people talk to each other for 100+ episodes,and travel together would have been that much interesting. At least with a third-wheel the writers can establish a group-effect, however feeble it may be.

 

[matt0044]

This is a problem with the writing rather than the concepts themselves. How boring would the Pokémon world be if everyone entered battle-oriented competitions to collect symbols of some kind? Very, I'd say.

Indeed. Too bad we hardly saw Brock becoming better at breeding like how Ash became better at battling and Dawn/May better at contests. It could've been darn cool.

 

[Ambipom666]

The writers never tried to address the most important question: How does a type specialist overcome the limitations of a monotype team?

This I agree with. I really hope Iris' re-appearance involves her discovering or at least battling and losing to Fairy Pokémon. I think it'd be interesting to see how she overcomes that.

 

[Silktree]

I really hope Iris' re-appearance involves her discovering or at least battling and losing to Fairy Pokémon. I think it'd be interesting to see how she overcomes that.

The answer would be pretty cheap if Iris simply used Excadrill...

 

[weeaboo_girl84]

Not every character needs to have a huge role. Some are just there to be fun characters and they will still be liked.

 

[matt0044]

Not every character needs to have a huge role. Some are just there to be fun characters and they will still be liked.

Brock was that in OS but devolved quickly. Cilan was funny but could be a bit... grating and I wish we learned more about his connoisseur goals. Clemont's so far good IMO.