Review BW090: The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!

[GreatLiver]

It's evolved to a Dragonite, it's going to be strong even if it grew up in the wild. They've only ever been shown as strong pokemon, they're not going to change that just because Iris is a relatively young trainer. Is it sorta deus ex that Iris got one to begin with? Yeah. But that's the nature of a machina and people just need to accept it at this point and stop whining about it and Iris.

 

[Geodude]

Not a lot different than Dawn getting a Togekiss, really. There wasn't much complaining about that. And heck, it IS possible to catch wild Dragonite in the games, unlike Togekiss. Games =/= anime, but it's something.

 

[HumanDawn]

The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.

Did Ash catch it to give a sudden power up to his team? No.

Lawfully right, morally wrong. She just conveniently got the Dragonite exactly before the tournament and used it to win, when the other trainers there probably trained their Pokemon for a long time.

Really nothing new for the anime. Ash has done similar things many times. Not necessarily with a new capture, but with an existing member of his team who is inexperienced in the task at hand.[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking that you're talking about Krabby evolving into Kingler in the Kanto League right? I'm pretty sure the same people had the same problem with it. Only, Ash relied on other Pokemon to advance further and his Kingler obeyed him.

It's evolved to a Dragonite, it's going to be strong even if it grew up in the wild. They've only ever been shown as strong pokemon, they're not going to change that just because Iris is a relatively young trainer. Is it sorta deus ex that Iris got one to begin with? Yeah. But that's the nature of a machina and people just need to accept it at this point and stop whining about it and Iris.

The problem is that we have to accept it to keep on tolerating its future appearances like in this episode when we don't want it. It's hard to chew it all up when the writers force it.

Not a lot different than Dawn getting a Togekiss, really. There wasn't much complaining about that. And heck, it IS possible to catch wild Dragonite in the games, unlike Togekiss. Games =/= anime, but it's something.

There was a lot of complaining about Dawn getting the Togekiss too by the same people. Regarding the Games =/= anime point you're seeming to make, I don't get it. Okay, lets look at it this way then:

What if I somehow caught a strong Dragonite that I didn't even need to challenge myself to get and used it to beat people with it like in the episode?

 

[Geodude]

The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.

Did Ash catch it to give a sudden power up to his team? No.

Not the point. That was an example of Dragonite being consistently portrayed as powerful.

I'm thinking that you're talking about Krabby evolving into Kingler in the Kanto League right?

Maybe that was one of them. There was also the first Pokeringer episode, his solid performance (for a beginner) in the couple of contests he's entered, Snorlax winning that sumo wrestling tournament in Johto, coming in a VERY close second in the Pokethlon episode, and several other similar things over the years.

What if I somehow caught a strong Dragonite that I didn't even need to challenge myself to get and used it to beat people with it like in the episode?

What about it? If it chose to go with you, you'd have every right to use it in whatever battle you wanted to.

 

[Hellion]

Why is it that nobody seemed to care that Pikachu tied with Winona's Pelipper and lost to Skyla's Swanna, and yet there's this big stink over Dragonite surviving an Ice attack? Clear double standard to me, and further evidence of the strange dislike for Iris among people here.

Maybe because you're totally missing the point that's being made and you're looking at this with a wildly different approach. Holism vs. Reductionism. You're seeing the complaining about Tsunbear being defeated by a Kairyu, reducing the argument to "Ice types shouldn't lose against Dragon types, Type advantages are everything" (which by the way isn't the argument most people are saying in this thread) and then saying, "Well, if you complain of a Pokémon winning despite a type disadvantage, then you must complain about every Pokémon winning with a type disadvantage." When, again, that's not the argument to begin with. How this battle, the episode and the arc affect the whole is what's being criticized here, not just based on type disadvantage, but also based on what came before for Iris' story (or lack thereof), how little is sustaining this storyline, how little impact on the character it's having, how it's impacting other characters, how the battle went down, the role the characters play in the show, in the episode, in Satoshi's story, etc.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that Pokémon with a type disadvantage should never win a battle against a Pokémon they're weak to, so I don't see why you would call double standard when people aren't in any way, shape or form making any of this a hard fast rule.

What about it? If it chose to go with you, you'd have every right to use it in whatever battle you wanted to.

Again, what's being said for the most part here isn't that Iris doesn't have the "right" to use Kairyu, but rather that the prospect of Iris winning battles with a Pokémon she hasn't trained, hasn't worked with isn't compelling or really entertaining because she hasn't really earned those wins. It's not making me root for Iris, it's not making Iris likeable or interesting to me, it's honestly turning me off. Take Satoshi's Pokéringer victories that you mentioned, in both cases, Satoshi used a Pokémon he had caught in the beginning of the saga, that he had fought with, that he had grown alongside of and through their journey and battles, both got stronger. That culminates in an episode where all they went through, all they learned leads to an evolution and a win that's the result of what came before. Here, it's not. This win wasn't deserved in any way, wasn't earned, isn't the result of anything at all. It's hollow and meaningless, and therefore leaves me, and apparently a lot of people as well, completely cold.

The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.

No. The Dragonite that showed up at the Lake of Rage was Lance's. If you're thinking about the Dragonite that appeared in the Blackthorn arc in the Dragon's Holy Land, it also wasn't wild but belonged to the original Blackthorn Gym Leader, meaning he had received training to get that strong.

 

[Geodude]

I indeed had the Lake of Rage one confused with the Blackthorn one. Apologies for the mistake.

Considering your points, I'll leave this discussion for now and maybe come back once I've seen the episode. Before I go though, isn't Cynthia still around? She'll probably help with the Dragonite a bit.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

What can I say what hasn't been said well there's the fact that not only the first and last battles we're won with disadvantages but pretty much everyone else did. I guess Gollett versus Heatmor doesn't count because gollett might not know a ground move but the others come on. It makes sense to make the predetermined victor have a disadvantage to add drama but to do that repeatedly with short battles just shows you don't give a rat's ass about them. Why did Reuniculas use thunderbolt really? They could have had Cilan's Pansage use rock tomb at least for continuity nod but it just shows you that BW doesn't give a rat's ass about continuity. And then the episode feels the need to remind you that type advantages exist. Did not Dawn notice all the other battles (I'm sorry most).

And another thing that was annoying about the final battle was Cilan comment "it depends on how they battle" Which is a legit comment considering the rest of the series. Now how did they fight. Well seems fair a first I actually liked the start Langley doesn't go straight for the ice moves and Dragonite just bitch slaps them. Cool I don't care at this moment that Iris will win Dragonite bitch slaping attacks is awesome. Then the ice moves start. Dragonite stops blocking it is entirely in cased in ice. Two ice beams Iris is in trouble now and just in time Dragonite gets compelled to fight and now the really battle begins and it's over. One punch one non stab neutrally effective punch. That is the difference between this and any other type disadvantage win. It was over in one punch. No consistency between how much attacks pokemon can take. Over in one punch.

And this whole disobedience thing raises the question why did Dragonite even come with the group? If it wasn't willing to listen to Iris why did it get in that ball.

I was really disappointed in this episode. People said don't complain about the capture until it happens. Fair point saw the capture didn't like it. People said don't complain about the battle until it happens. Fair point saw the battle didn't like it. From now on I'm going to try to assume the worst out BW based on the preview. At least then if there's something good it will make me pleasantly surprised.

 

[Lillie]

This episode was horrible imo, all the battles were way too rushed, Dawn didn't even get a full scene battle for her only win and it's her cameo! -_-
The only interesting parts were Burgundy yelling at Dawn to watch out for Cilan and Cynthia vs Caitlin.
My rating a 3/10

 

[mwetwe]

Read the comments, wondered what all the fuss was about, watched it, then agreed with all the comments. This episode is below the expeectations I expect from pokemon. Season 2 was a sign of better plots and episodes, but this episode has not given me much faith. Most of the pokemon battles were rushed and the one battle that was prolonged was pretty bad. I mean as somone said, Dragonite surviving and Ice attack and winning? I dont think it should have...

 

[GreatLiver]

So actually watched this episode. First one since the Homika episodes. That exhibition match really was dull. About 3 attacks in the entire battle, and ending it with them just punching each other was very anticlimactic. It also brought out my absolute least favorite thing from contests, extraneous fireworks. And it just wouldn't stop. I haven't really been watching many episodes of BW so they may be showing up all the time, but first time I've noticed it since the end of DP. I just can't stand how the writers'll make anything explode into fireworks just for show. I also just found Caitlin to be very uninteresting. Didn't help she had one of the ugliest, most annoying, and most overused pokemon in DP. I really just didn't find myself caring about her at all.

This probably falls under bashing a character for something not really relevant tot he episode, but this is my first, and last, time mentioning it so bare with me. I'm just now realizing how much I don't care for Dent and the whole tasting thing. I guess since I don't watch much it never bothers me, but it's bothering me a lot in this episode since Cabernet's also in there doing the same thing. I think this sommelier thing is just weird, and I don't fully understand why it was made up. Breeders reading pokemon and how much they got along with their trainer or whatever worked fine. Mentioning how everything tastes tough and gamey every time you talk is just weird.

• Shooti's the same conceited douche he's always been with the whole Adeku needs to bow to me bit.
• I really like the animation on Heatmor's like flame tongue thing. That may just be one of my favorite parts of this episode.
• Dentula's such a cool pokemon, and it gets absolutely shafted of showing anything. Boo animators.
• Oh a Reuniclus. What a cool pokemon that we see absolutely none of. Here's an idea, why not have Caitlin use that in the exhibition instead of a pokemon who's line shows up every 5 episode.

I don't know if I like that they animated the little montage of the middle few battles that were quick. I almost think that it would have looked less cheap if they just cut together still frames of each of the defeats. Those are acceptable what with them having to fit so many battles into an episode, but I personally feel like the way they animated single attacks of one pokemon looking like they're one-shotting the other just makes it worse. Those quick montages can be fun, but when they're animated I think it takes something away from it.

Apparently unlike everyone else, I really like this Dragonite battle. It's such a unique way to take it that we've never really seen. It batting off Hidden Powers was so bad ass. I honestly couldn't care that it's so overpowered and that people hate seeing Iris win anything. A pokemon fighting to fight and taking everything head on is something we really don't see and is unique to Dragonite. I think a pokemon like Dragonite is the perfect one for the writers to give that personality to. The OHKO could have been avoided and Tsunbear's loss could have been handled better, but I think it was a great premier of Dragonite in a trainer battle. Charizard was just kinda a dick when he didn't obey Satoshi way back. I don't even remember Manmoo, but from what I recall it just kinda charged around attacking people. But Dragonite's way of disobeying is completely different, and I personally think it's very fresh. He isn't beating up on Iris, he's just very battle oriented so he doesn't really comply with Iris in that regard just yet. I've gotta say I'm very much looking forward to what we'll see from Dragonite in the future.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

What about when he stopped blocking what was up with that

 

[Geodude]

Just saw the episode. I don't understand why so many people call the battles "rushed" when we've seen dozens of battle montages in the show over the years. That's all it was, I see no problem there.

-Dragonite clearly doesn't know how to dodge, or it thinks it's such a "tough guy" that it doesn't need to. Turtwig didn't understand what dodging meant either, but that was soon fixed. Also, it's not really disobedient in the same way that Charizard or Mamoswine were. It's willing to battle for Iris, but it thinks it doesn't need her help and it can do it its own way. My guess on how this will be resolved is that a similar battle happens but Dragonite loses and feels really depressed about it. Eventually Iris manages to bring it out of its depression, and it realizes it's better off listening to her. Or possibly something similar to the demonstration battle Ash and Scraggy gave Chris and Cubchoo against that Larvitar. Cubchoo watched the battle and liked the idea of battling with Chris. Maybe something similar will happen with Dragonite, it'll watch another battle and decide to try working with Iris.

 

[Moe]

Just saw the episode. I don't understand why so many people call the battles "rushed" when we've seen dozens of battle montages in the show over the years. That's all it was, I see no problem there.

I see a problem when Burgundy spent more screen time in this episode in introducing herself to Dawn than she did battling. I see a problem with Dawn, who supposedly returned to the show just to compete in this tournament has 10 seconds of battling. I see a problem when Ash, who is supposed to be the main character of the show, in his last tournament before the league is given 10 seconds to show all of his strength and training that is supposedly going to set him up to beat the Dragonite that's the focus of most of the episode. Or Trip, who is now able to win battles, but we don't get to see what he's doing differently because we didn't see him battle for more than 10 seconds.

The other battles of a tournament provide the context it all occurs in. You can't judge a Trainer's strength and get an idea of what sort of chance they have in the tournament in such a short space of time - the only hook for this tournament is 'what will happen with Dragonite', there is absolutely nothing for any of the other characters battle wise, to the point where they could all have just been COTDs.

Indeed, there's a reason the tournament COTDs all got names and descriptions in the past - because it matters who the main characters are beating. Having nearly all the elimintations be of COTDs, and seemingly the latter rounds built up of main characters beating COTDs means you need to spend some time establishing them as competitors. Trip gets through to battle Ash in the final, but if he only fights nameless generic COTDs (the only other route is a revenge match against Cilan, who's weak anyway) - that doesn't set him up as having improved any, it just shows he didn't face tough competition in the lead up to the finals - again, meaning no character development.

A montage per se isn't a bad thing, this montage was. Always fade out in a montage.....

 

[Geodude]

It's just the first episode of an arc, it's too early to say most of that yet.

 

[Moe]

Not really. This episode already ruined Burgundy's slow growth as a trainer over her appearances to date by knocking her out with no detail - and it failed at setting up anything for any of the other characters.

Dawn's only contribution to this episode was a comment about someone else's battle being like a contest - again if we actually got to see her battle they could have shown how she was dealing with this tournament, either as full training in battle or as another way of trying contests - it means she has no battle context going in to next week's battle against Dragonite, where instead of being able to develop her strengths she will come right up against a wall. If her battle in this episode was longer she could have shown some on screen gain from the trip.

For Cilan, his rival gets knocked out for nothing, but he still doesn't get to be shown as any more capable for any real reason, just she lost and he won. No explanation of why he wins and no justification for him being here in the first place. Which means next week when he loses, there's no meaning to it because the tournament has no meaning for him, at least nothing shown on screen.

And Ash and Trip lose a chance to observe eachother. You know Trip's one character point that has remained constant? No photos in this episode at all, no observations of others, just him with an angry look on his face.

These things can't just be fixed up next episode - the shorter timeframe of this tournament compared to the Don Battles means there's even less time to do this stuff, much less to do a good job of it.

 

[GreatLiver]

They've got 4 main characters going at the moment, plus a handful of rivals. Tournament arcs have never been more than 3 or 4 episodes in pokemon, so it's nothing new that we don't see every battle every named character has in full. They'll all have their time. In Leagues and GFs we're mainly following Satoshi with maybe one or two other characters being shown some development. With that we can see a larger percentage of people we care about's battles. When we've got 7 characters in a 16 person tourament, it makes sense people are gonna get knocked out every round and that we'd only see one or two battles from everyone. The characters that made it through this round made it through. That's really all you have to worry about. We just saw the battles of the ones that got knocked out just so we could see how exactly they got knocked out.

 

[Geodude]

Trip isn't taking pictures because he's focused (more than usual) on winning so he can battle Alder. And he's kind of bitter about it too, after the last episode where they met when he saw what his idol was really like. Some of this is probably explained in the dialogue most of us don't understand.

 

[HumanDawn]

I already got too used to AG and DP's 2 second shots of contest battles and appeals and the two previous tournaments' 3 seconds long battles to cry pointlessly over this tournament's short battles. Though, these entertained me a bit. Which means..... IT'S PICTURE TIME DDDD!!! There were 2 funny looking endings:

And an epic looking ending:

Can't say I wasn't entertained looking at them.

Oh and DAMN, the match with Dragonite against Beartic is the one of the most badass battles in the entire show. Running through Beartic's Icy Wind and casting a ThunderPunch on it.... AWESOME. It's such a rare treat <3.

A cute and funny moment here:

I'm so glad that they carried over Iris' dialogue in the games about thinking that Cynthia's Garchomp is awesome. That moment there seems to be very underrated here. Gee, I wonder why ?

Trip looked pretty intimidating in his battle against Burgundy:

That anger.... that fuel.... I could really feel for Trip. Seeing him be satisfied was good too:

Lets hope that keeps up.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

How can you call it bad ass win it makes Beartic look fucking pathetic. What's badass about all your moves doing nothing and it being over in one punch. A badass battle is one that makes both sides look strong. And why exactly did Dragonite stop blocking? Yeah no effort for no explained reason totally badass.

 

[HumanDawn]

How can you call it bad ass win it makes Beartic look fucking pathetic.

I was referring to Dragonite's badassery:

Running through Beartic's Icy Wind and casting a ThunderPunch on it.... AWESOME

What's badass about all your moves doing nothing and it being over in one punch.

What's not badass about running through Icy Wind and casting a strong Thunderpunch that results in a OHKO ?

A badass battle is one that makes both sides look strong.

Not necessarily.

And why exactly did Dragonite stop blocking? Yeah no effort for no explained reason totally badass.

Using its battle instincts ! BADASS.