Qing'e
Hermit Who Passes Through Walls
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COMPLETED //Game Thread// Paragon: Rise of New World Order
- Thread starter frozen.palisades
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frozen.palisades
Pro-crastinator
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I have several thoughts on play.
Main takeaways -
To the Mafia:
1) For Mafia in a copless game, never bus. There is no need to. Just play in a towny manner, post your thoughts, and try to find scum. Your goal shouldn't be to #busforcred. That is a weak play that will not last you very long.
2) If you do bus, do it well. Lead the charge on your mafia partner. Do not accuse them for thin reasons (or even worse, no reasons at all). Take the time to build a case on them, so that when you get them lynched, you will actually be rightfully townread.
3) Post more. I understand that if you don't have time, you won't be able to post as much. Don't sign up for a game that you want to play well if you don't have the time. But having control over the flow of the thread, and becoming a voice that can lead town -- that's hugely important. Posting more also gives you more room to be towny, so see each post as an opportunity to look less scummy, instead of trying to lurk and hide behind few posts.
4) Develop worlds in which you are not Mafia. This helps me when I am Mafia, in order for me to be convincing to townies, your beginning assumption is that you ARE town and that is all you know. Mafia tend to have TMI, and treat people who they know are town as town even while trying to lynch them. Be convinced and convincing that the person you are trying to lynch is Mafia.
5) Express townish doubt and working through of thought processes. Do not switch onto the best-looking wagon because that looks opportunistic. If you are to do that, provide a good case on the person you are trying to lynch, and why you think that person is Mafia.
To Town:
1) When you evaluate the actions of others in the game, remember this. No one is lock clear from a single thing they do. In fact, you should never treat someone as lock clear. If someone does many things that are scummy, and does one thing that is super towny, do not weigh that one thing over the scummy actions, especially if that 'towny' thing is helping lynch Mafia.
2) Post more so that people have the chance to read you as town.
3) Do not ever give up and ask people to vote you. If you are to be lynched, provide a list of your dying reads, with well-thought out explanations, and make sure you are clear about who will be implicated from your flip.
4) When you are vanilla town, you are expendable. Sure, you don't want Mafia to reach parity, but do not act in a self-preserving way. Your main priority is to find Mafia and townread Townies who you will then trust and work together with to lynch the Mafia. Those actions will then make you a more obvious villager than not, and you will likely not be lynched.
5) Come endgame, you should not be relying on POE to find the Mafia. Read people for what they have done, and in comparison to other. Particularly, I recommend analyzing interactions between dead Mafia partners and other people to look for possible spew, in which a dead Mafia partner accidentally reveals who his/her partner is because of the way the dead Mafia treats the partner. Look for 1) avoidance, not addressing each other often (if they do address each other, interactions are not very long or are faked, usually), 2) the pushing of an agenda (specifically, lynching anyone who isn't him/her), and 3) knowing too much (for instance, leetic pushed Flop without any good reasons, and didn't explain why she was Mafia. Taken another way, it could be clearly seen as Mafia knowing that the other partner is Mafia and bussing her).
1// @DrumBeats
2// @Zexy
3// @lovandra
4// @Slife
5// @Hellcrow
6// @leetic
7// @Life
8// @TheCapsFan
9// @7JayDee7
10// @Doctor Floptopus
11// @Kakashi Hatake
2// @Zexy
3// @lovandra
4// @Slife
5// @Hellcrow
6// @leetic
7// @Life
8// @TheCapsFan
9// @7JayDee7
10// @Doctor Floptopus
11// @Kakashi Hatake
Main takeaways -
To the Mafia:
1) For Mafia in a copless game, never bus. There is no need to. Just play in a towny manner, post your thoughts, and try to find scum. Your goal shouldn't be to #busforcred. That is a weak play that will not last you very long.
2) If you do bus, do it well. Lead the charge on your mafia partner. Do not accuse them for thin reasons (or even worse, no reasons at all). Take the time to build a case on them, so that when you get them lynched, you will actually be rightfully townread.
3) Post more. I understand that if you don't have time, you won't be able to post as much. Don't sign up for a game that you want to play well if you don't have the time. But having control over the flow of the thread, and becoming a voice that can lead town -- that's hugely important. Posting more also gives you more room to be towny, so see each post as an opportunity to look less scummy, instead of trying to lurk and hide behind few posts.
4) Develop worlds in which you are not Mafia. This helps me when I am Mafia, in order for me to be convincing to townies, your beginning assumption is that you ARE town and that is all you know. Mafia tend to have TMI, and treat people who they know are town as town even while trying to lynch them. Be convinced and convincing that the person you are trying to lynch is Mafia.
5) Express townish doubt and working through of thought processes. Do not switch onto the best-looking wagon because that looks opportunistic. If you are to do that, provide a good case on the person you are trying to lynch, and why you think that person is Mafia.
To Town:
1) When you evaluate the actions of others in the game, remember this. No one is lock clear from a single thing they do. In fact, you should never treat someone as lock clear. If someone does many things that are scummy, and does one thing that is super towny, do not weigh that one thing over the scummy actions, especially if that 'towny' thing is helping lynch Mafia.
2) Post more so that people have the chance to read you as town.
3) Do not ever give up and ask people to vote you. If you are to be lynched, provide a list of your dying reads, with well-thought out explanations, and make sure you are clear about who will be implicated from your flip.
4) When you are vanilla town, you are expendable. Sure, you don't want Mafia to reach parity, but do not act in a self-preserving way. Your main priority is to find Mafia and townread Townies who you will then trust and work together with to lynch the Mafia. Those actions will then make you a more obvious villager than not, and you will likely not be lynched.
5) Come endgame, you should not be relying on POE to find the Mafia. Read people for what they have done, and in comparison to other. Particularly, I recommend analyzing interactions between dead Mafia partners and other people to look for possible spew, in which a dead Mafia partner accidentally reveals who his/her partner is because of the way the dead Mafia treats the partner. Look for 1) avoidance, not addressing each other often (if they do address each other, interactions are not very long or are faked, usually), 2) the pushing of an agenda (specifically, lynching anyone who isn't him/her), and 3) knowing too much (for instance, leetic pushed Flop without any good reasons, and didn't explain why she was Mafia. Taken another way, it could be clearly seen as Mafia knowing that the other partner is Mafia and bussing her).
Last edited:
Wow, the quoting system here is...not ideal. Since Lenore asked me to correct her post, I'm just going to chime in with my thoughts on her points
For mafia:
1) This isn't exactly correct, but fwiw, I wouldn't bus in this setup unless my teammate just completely outed themselves. Like, they might as well have posted their role PM bad. Mafia was at a greater than normal number disadvantage to begin the game, and the lack of nightkills on N1 and N2 means mislynches are paramount to victory.
2) Tying into what I just said - pick your spot for bussing. If you're going to bus, you need to sell it well, and you need to be able to ride it until the end of the game. At the same time, you need to be able to justify why you're not being killed.
3) I'm not a super volume player compared to a lot of the other mentors and players on the "big name" sites, so I won't harp on massive activity, but I stand by her point here.
4) I don't know what she means by "develop worlds", but yes, play the game from a town mindset as much as you can. I don't mean that as make the same pushes you would if you were town (though that certainly helps), but treat everybody as an unknown to start. Math says each person individually is more likely town than mafia, but I've seen very few players who use that approach as town - don't do it as mafia.
5) Kind of agree here, kind of disagree. What I really didn't understand early on was why everybody was so suspicious of self preservation efforts. There's nothing inherently scummy about trying to keep yourself from being lynched or making yourself look good. If somebody presents an argument against you, refute it. If you can't refute it, try to overcome it; redirect from the scummy aspects and try to find what makes you look good in it. This applies to voting. If you're town, you have every reason to vote an unconfirmed player if YOUR head is on the chopping block - you know your alignment, you don't know their alignment . Therefore, as mafia, you should be doing the same thing. If I spent the entire day calling Lenore my top town, you bet your ass I'm voting her if it comes down to the two of us as the wagons and my efforts to create a counterwagon from my suspects has failed.
For town:
1) As a general rule, this is great. I would argue there are certain things in SOME games that you SHOULD treat people as lock town for, but I'm not going to get into unique situations involving roles/mechanics. So the takeaway here should be, as she indicated - don't get so focused on one action that you ignore the rest of the game. That applies for both town and mafia reads, for the record; if someboyd has played a beautiful game and did ONE super suspicious thing, figure out if it comes from a town mindset, no matter how irrational or illogical. If so, give them a pass.
2) Pretty self explanatory.
3) Yep.
4) I think her point here is correct, but her way of explaining it as wrong. I already said my piece on self-pres. But yeah, keep working towards your win condition, even if it means people are lynching you and you might get killed. It happens to be the best of us. And as she said, your effort MIGHT end up saving your life.
5) Another one of the right idea, wrong wording things, probably. POE is fine. If it's F4, and I have significant reason to believe that A and B are almost certainly town, I'm stringing up C regardless of how well they've played. That being said, make your POE based on the breadth of the game. If the dead mafia both made genuine attempts to lynch A, I'm removing him from the POE and focusing on B and C. If the dead mafia spent a lot of time arguing with B and hedged reads on C, I'm going to pressure C until they give me reason to believe they're town or until they crack, with LESS - but not NO - pressure on B.
For mafia:
1) This isn't exactly correct, but fwiw, I wouldn't bus in this setup unless my teammate just completely outed themselves. Like, they might as well have posted their role PM bad. Mafia was at a greater than normal number disadvantage to begin the game, and the lack of nightkills on N1 and N2 means mislynches are paramount to victory.
2) Tying into what I just said - pick your spot for bussing. If you're going to bus, you need to sell it well, and you need to be able to ride it until the end of the game. At the same time, you need to be able to justify why you're not being killed.
3) I'm not a super volume player compared to a lot of the other mentors and players on the "big name" sites, so I won't harp on massive activity, but I stand by her point here.
4) I don't know what she means by "develop worlds", but yes, play the game from a town mindset as much as you can. I don't mean that as make the same pushes you would if you were town (though that certainly helps), but treat everybody as an unknown to start. Math says each person individually is more likely town than mafia, but I've seen very few players who use that approach as town - don't do it as mafia.
5) Kind of agree here, kind of disagree. What I really didn't understand early on was why everybody was so suspicious of self preservation efforts. There's nothing inherently scummy about trying to keep yourself from being lynched or making yourself look good. If somebody presents an argument against you, refute it. If you can't refute it, try to overcome it; redirect from the scummy aspects and try to find what makes you look good in it. This applies to voting. If you're town, you have every reason to vote an unconfirmed player if YOUR head is on the chopping block - you know your alignment, you don't know their alignment . Therefore, as mafia, you should be doing the same thing. If I spent the entire day calling Lenore my top town, you bet your ass I'm voting her if it comes down to the two of us as the wagons and my efforts to create a counterwagon from my suspects has failed.
For town:
1) As a general rule, this is great. I would argue there are certain things in SOME games that you SHOULD treat people as lock town for, but I'm not going to get into unique situations involving roles/mechanics. So the takeaway here should be, as she indicated - don't get so focused on one action that you ignore the rest of the game. That applies for both town and mafia reads, for the record; if someboyd has played a beautiful game and did ONE super suspicious thing, figure out if it comes from a town mindset, no matter how irrational or illogical. If so, give them a pass.
2) Pretty self explanatory.
3) Yep.
4) I think her point here is correct, but her way of explaining it as wrong. I already said my piece on self-pres. But yeah, keep working towards your win condition, even if it means people are lynching you and you might get killed. It happens to be the best of us. And as she said, your effort MIGHT end up saving your life.
5) Another one of the right idea, wrong wording things, probably. POE is fine. If it's F4, and I have significant reason to believe that A and B are almost certainly town, I'm stringing up C regardless of how well they've played. That being said, make your POE based on the breadth of the game. If the dead mafia both made genuine attempts to lynch A, I'm removing him from the POE and focusing on B and C. If the dead mafia spent a lot of time arguing with B and hedged reads on C, I'm going to pressure C until they give me reason to believe they're town or until they crack, with LESS - but not NO - pressure on B.
DrumBeats
Keelah Se'Lai
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Good job town, I'm happy you guys figured it out at the end.
Thanks to @frozen.palisades and @Elieson for hosting, and thanks to all of the mentors for taking their time to help with this game!
Thanks to @frozen.palisades and @Elieson for hosting, and thanks to all of the mentors for taking their time to help with this game!
Maniacal Engineer
Mushy Emotionalist
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I apparently have a knack for this, if Build-It is any indication...
Also, I appreciated the opportunity to observe this game, and it was definitely an interesting concept. I might be inclined to play a mentor game in the future, because my skills could use some sharpening, as can my Interrupting Knife.
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One other tip: use your mentor to their fullest. That's what this game's all about.
Also, GG town. Sorry I couldn't've been more active, hosts. I'll do better next time
Also, GG town. Sorry I couldn't've been more active, hosts. I'll do better next time
Askthepizzaguy
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Well played Hellcrow. Glad to have mentored you.
TheCapsFan
C'est Comme Ça
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Good game, everyone! I'm glad town pulled through in the end.
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GG everyone. Looks like I'll have to change my game plan if I don't want to be lynched again xD Good job town. Hope my death was useful. And sorry to everyone I put a bit too much pressure, especially Hellcrow and Zexy. Can't wait to play more and I hope my first game was good for you guys/girls.
PaulTheProtist
¡Prepárate a morir!
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Yeah, I played kinda horribly on that one. I was way too rash on the bussing, I saw Flop's name mentioned a lot and saw a couple of votes on her, so I bussed, and when I saw that not only was one vote on her but it was by the person who was considered the scummiest, I was like "Oh, crap!" I also did everything without contacting Flop, so basically I was a horrible scumbuddy. And my actions in the last day pretty much threw any chance I had of winning out the window... I take full responsibility for the scum loss.
lovandra
Almost always on Tapatalk.
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Your bussing to Flop is a wildcard for you. You confused me as I really really scum read you beforehand and after you catch Flop, you almost town for me. But you didn't play the card nicely on last two days.
When Capsy and Zexy bring bussing matter to me. I suddenly jump to hypothesis that you are the bus and not life. I still not really sure cause Zexy as my other scumread, still not cleared for me, and life as confused as me.
But yeah.. in mafia game, we can't never certain. Last voting phase is a gamble for me, but your 'uncooperativeness' on last voting phase is pretty much hammer your own dead.
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At least I got one of the mafia right. Good start.
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A bit late on this, but good game everyone! I had a great mentor who helped me quite a bit and gave some great advice. I think the game overall was a valuable learning opportunity in many ways, and I honestly do feel like I have become better as player because of it. Also a big thanks to @frozen.palisades and @Elieson for taking the time to organize a game like this for us, and to all the mentors for their contributions as well!
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