Cynthia=Mary Sue?

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Okay, wow, I'm glad that I found this thread in light of a similar controversy that's recently centered around one of the anime's current main characters because it actually gives me a chance to talk about Mary Sue as a concept.

I'm going to start off by giving the simple, short answer to the thread's question: no, Cynthia is not a Mary Sue. And neither is Leon or really any Champion for that matter. Why, you ask? Simple, because whether a character is a Mary Sue or not isn't actually dictated by their skills or personality traits, but rather what role they play in the story. Because as it turns out, the infamous Mary Sue isn't actually a character problem, but a story one, meaning that yes, it's completely and entirely possible for a character to have the stereotypical Mary Sue traits without actually being one, while conversely it's completely possible to have a character that is technically "flawed" that fits into the Mary Sue mold.

Now, the reason why neither Cynthia nor any of the Champions are Mary Sues is because of the role they play in the story: sure, they're powerful and hyped to kingdom come, but the only reason that's the case is so that you, the player, can come off looking and feeling all the more impressive when you beat them. They're final bosses for goodness' sake, of course they're gonna be tough! In the end, all the hype that Cynthia and the other Champions get will only serve to benefit you, not them. Champions exist to be surpassed by you.

By contrast, a Mary Sue is a character who essentially warps the entire story and setting to benefit them at the expense of other characters, meaning that a Mary Sue is inevitably always a main character, and Cynthia is not a main character. At most she's an older mentor figure/stepping stone for the actual main character, which in the games would be us players.

So yeah, not only is Cynthia not a Mary Sue, but the role she plays in the story makes it pretty much impossible for her to be one: she isn't designed to be a main character, and more or less represents someone who has already finished her development and is currently at her peak, which isn't anything different from what other Champions have done.

Also, I want to make an addendum to this that's probably going to get a lot of hate thrown my way, but I don't care because I really need to get this off my chest: it's really telling that Cynthia, a female Champion, is being called a Mary Sue while Leon, a male one, is defended. It's common knowledge by now, I'm sure, but it's a sad fact that female characters are much more likely to get labeled as Sues than male ones, and often the threshold that a female character needs to cross in order to be accused of being a Sue is MUCH smaller than that a male character needs to cross in order to even start being considered one. The responses here are actually a great example: Leon is point blank portrayed as unbeatable, is adored by everyone, the games he features in can't go five seconds without shilling the bejeezus out of him... yet everyone treats this as okay because it's "part of the story". By contrast, what does Cynthia do? because the games Cynthia features in don't hype her anywhere near as much: she just gives you pointers, some choice advice, and provides a tough fight at the end like literally every other Champion ever. Yet apparently this is enough for her to be considered a Mary Sue? Just because she's strong? Really?! ...oh right, I forgot, Cynthia's a woman, and as we all know any women who are shown to be even remotely competent at something, let alone the best at it, are just horrible Mary Sues. Funny how men can do this and more and not only not receive anywhere near as much scorn, but actually be defended from it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still stand by my previous statement of Leon not being a Mary Sue either because of what I said about the role Champions play, but I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't bother me greatly that he technically has more of the traits people commonly associate with Sues... yet Cynthia is the one who gets thrown that accusation. honestly, Leon's extremely lucky that he's not a woman, because I get the sneaking sensation that if he was one, a lot of the people who like/defend him would be singing a very different tune...

Now, this is not to say that Cynthia's character doesn't have problems: the fact that she doesn't help you much in Platinum during the Distortion World arc is pretty dumb, but that's not her being a Mary Sue. Yes, it's bad writing, but not in the Sue-ish kind, since if anything Cynthia is the one being shafted so that the player character can take center stage. This is understandable for gameplay reasons, of course, but storywise it's still jarring. The obvious solution here is to somehow take Cynthia out of the picture to justify the player character having to step up, and I think a reasonable way to do so would be to have Cynthia deal with Giratina, something that Cyrus takes advantage of by trying to eliminate the seemingly much weaker player character, leading to the boss fight with him. Now, this would obviously come with the caveat of making Giratina a post-game capture, but imo that's a small price to pay. It wouldn't even be the first time that a main Legend is relegated to the postgame, anyway.

And as for the fan reaction to Cynthia... first of all, not only is the subject of whether or not she's "overrated" something entirely subjective, but even if it wasn't it has nothing to do with the actual role she plays in-universe. It's not Cynthia's fault that she as obnoxious fans, for goodness' sake :/

Look, sorry if I'm coming off way too angry or bitter, but I feel that people use the term Mary Sue so willy-nilly these days that it has effectively lost its intended original meaning and now may as well be shorthand for "character I personally don't like"

 

[Epic Spheal]

Now, don't get me wrong, I still stand by my previous statement of Leon not being a Mary Sue either because of what I said about the role Champions play, but I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't bother me greatly that he technically has more of the traits people commonly associate with Sues... yet Cynthia is the one who gets thrown that accusation. honestly, Leon's extremely lucky that he's not a woman, because I get the sneaking sensation that if he was one, a lot of the people who like/defend him would be singing a very different tune...

The thing is Leon gets a ton of hate and is considered a Mary Sue/Gary Stu even though like you said he isn't. In fact him and Kukui are the other two champions that have been really thrown around here in this thread as potential Sues and it's for a similar reason as Cynthia. They are both men of color and characters of color also get hit with the Mary Sue/Gary Stu tag because of implicit bias when they are portrayed as competent and positive characters. Some of the comments upthread about Kukui and Leon talk about them being adored and being good and competent and it definitely can come off as if POC can't be any of those things, or any of those things all at once otherwise it's suspicious

You're right though if Leon was a woman (and he'd be a woman of color) it would be worse actually a LOT worse because he'd have the sins of being a woman and POC.

Look, sorry if I'm coming off way too angry or bitter, but I feel that people use the term Mary Sue so willy-nilly these days that it has effectively lost its intended original meaning and now may as well be shorthand for "character I personally don't like"

I agree with this 10000%. Just say you don't like the character and go, don't try to make them out to be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu when they aren't

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

The thing is Leon gets a ton of hate and is considered a Mary Sue/Gary Stu even though like you said he isn't. In fact him and Kukui are the other two champions that have been really thrown around here in this thread as potential Sues and it's for a similar reason as Cynthia. They are both men of color and characters of color also get hit with the Mary Sue/Gary Stu tag because of implicit bias when they are portrayed as competent and positive characters. Some of the comments upthread about Kukui and Leon talk about them being adored and being good and competent and it definitely can come off as if POC can't be any of those things, or any of those things all at once otherwise it's suspicious

Thanks for pointing out the whole POC thing, because yeah, you're right about that also unfortunately being a factor in people labelling certain characters as Sues/Stus and it's something I should have considered when making the essay as well. I hadn't actually seen it with Leon himself, though (I thought that the hate he got was more of a byproduct of the whole deal about the fandom generally being sick and tired of Game Freak's Charizard pandering, but I guess I just wasn't paying as much attention as I should have), but I certainly have witnessed that reaction towards other POC characters.

Kukui getting hate is actually news to me, though. I legit had no idea people called him a Mary Sue as well. Shame, I always thought he was cool :/

 

[Epic Spheal]

Thanks for pointing out the whole POC thing, because yeah, you're right about that also unfortunately being a factor in people labelling certain characters as Sues/Stus and it's something I should have considered when making the essay as well. I hadn't actually seen it with Leon himself, though (I thought that the hate he got was more of a byproduct of the whole deal about the fandom generally being sick and tired of Game Freak's Charizard pandering, but I guess I just wasn't paying as much attention as I should have), but I certainly have witnessed that reaction towards other POC characters.

Kukui getting hate is actually news to me, though. I legit had no idea people called him a Mary Sue as well. Shame, I always thought he was cool :/

Him having a charizard certainly doesn't help matters (his ace should've definitely been Dragapult, give us G-max dragapult Gamefreak!). But yeah he was getting called a Mary Sue in this thread (among other threads on other websites) hence why there was a lot of defense of him in other posts. A lot of people seem to take issue with him being a good person which for me is the part that particularly strikes me as the racial bias coming out of all of the criticisms lobbed against him. Like why can't he be a good guy? It's the same thing about him being a competent battler and competent enough to at least proactively address threats to the region. Why can't he be competent? Him being legitimately nice and legitimately competent battler was a much bigger and better twist than him being a fraud/evil.

As for Kukui apparently him being a professor, ladies man who wrestles who was strong enough to be a champion level fight is cause for him to get the Mary Sue label for some people (not me personally, I think it makes him one of the more interesting professors).

But going back to Cynthia, like you said in your original post I do hope we get to see some sort of better justification for her sitting out the important fights in DP remakes or let her be more involved with them. One of the things I loved about DP anime Cynthia is how she got involved in the final arc and I want to see her get that justice served to her in the remakes.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Him having a charizard certainly doesn't help matters (his ace should've definitely been Dragapult, give us G-max dragapult Gamefreak!).

Him having a Charizard as an ace makes sense, though. He's basically a grown-up player character, so it's only natural a starter is his ace.

 

[Circus]

By contrast, a Mary Sue is a character who essentially warps the entire story and setting to benefit them at the expense of other characters, meaning that a Mary Sue is inevitably always a main character, and Cynthia is not a main character.

I wouldn't say that's quite true. While I do agree with you that Cynthia and most other champions aren't Mary Sues (or Gary Stus) I wouldn't say that a Mary Sue has to be the main character / protagonist in a work today. While it did originate as a way to denounce self-insert characters which almost always are main characters, media has evolved to the point where a secondary character can be a Mary Sue.

The definition of Mary Sue that I'm used to is that of a character archetype or an overly idealized / perfect character, be they a main character or not, but it's important to say with any measure of certainty what is or isn't a Mary Sue because there are least thirteen different definitions lying around.

So, I disagree with your argument even if I agree with the conclusion.

I don't think she's a Mary Sue because I don't really think she has enough of a stage presence to even let us analyze her character. I've checked her quotes in DPP and she's pretty much a convenient excuse for an exposition dump, barely a character at all, really, much less anything resembling a Mary Sue by most definitions.

Also, I want to make an addendum to this that's probably going to get a lot of hate thrown my way, but I don't care because I really need to get this off my chest: it's really telling that Cynthia, a female Champion, is being called a Mary Sue while Leon, a male one, is defended. It's common knowledge by now, I'm sure, but it's a sad fact that female characters are much more likely to get labeled as Sues than male ones, and often the threshold that a female character needs to cross in order to be accused of being a Sue is MUCH smaller than that a male character needs to cross in order to even start being considered one. The responses here are actually a great example: Leon is point blank portrayed as unbeatable, is adored by everyone, the games he features in can't go five seconds without shilling the bejeezus out of him... yet everyone treats this as okay because it's "part of the story". By contrast, what does Cynthia do? because the games Cynthia features in don't hype her anywhere near as much: she just gives you pointers, some choice advice, and provides a tough fight at the end like literally every other Champion ever. Yet apparently this is enough for her to be considered a Mary Sue? Just because she's strong? Really?! ...oh right, I forgot, Cynthia's a woman, and as we all know any women who are shown to be even remotely competent at something, let alone the best at it, are just horrible Mary Sues. Funny how men can do this and more and not only not receive anywhere near as much scorn, but actually be defended from it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still stand by my previous statement of Leon not being a Mary Sue either because of what I said about the role Champions play, but I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't bother me greatly that he technically has more of the traits people commonly associate with Sues... yet Cynthia is the one who gets thrown that accusation. honestly, Leon's extremely lucky that he's not a woman, because I get the sneaking sensation that if he was one, a lot of the people who like/defend him would be singing a very different tune...

True enough, and to be honest, I'm kind of surprised of how well he's received. Considering his status as a person of color and the fact that as far as I can tell from watching let's play footages of Sword and Shield (I might be wrong about this, I don't have a Switch or the games so I can't confirm it) he more or less seems to take away some opportunities that should have been dealt with by the player?

In fact I would say he's a Gary Stu because his whole character was built up to the Gary Stu archetype. TvTropes say:
"Ruggedly handsome, charming, skilled, and respected by his peers. Think of a Captain Fantastic type. Kind of like The Ace, but not always played for comedy."

While I can't say I love Leon's design (that beard really should have been the same color as his hair and good lord, who thought wearing a rug was a good idea?) I have seen fanfics being written for the sole purpose of having the MC end up with Leon, so, apparently there are people who consider him ruggedly handsome.

Look, sorry if I'm coming off way too angry or bitter, but I feel that people use the term Mary Sue so willy-nilly these days that it has effectively lost its intended original meaning and now may as well be shorthand for "character I personally don't like"

That's not something intrinsically bad, mind you. Words change all the time and that's fine. That's a normal linguistic process all languages go through. That said, if people want to bandy the term Mary Sue around they probably should consider what is the proper definition they're using and whether there any biases clouding their judgement.

 

[Daren]

True enough, and to be honest, I'm kind of surprised of how well he's received. Considering his status as a person of color and the fact that as far as I can tell from watching let's play footages of Sword and Shield (I might be wrong about this, I don't have a Switch or the games so I can't confirm it) he more or less seems to take away some opportunities that should have been dealt with by the player?

In fact I would say he's a Gary Stu because his whole character was built up to the Gary Stu archetype. TvTropes say:
"Ruggedly handsome, charming, skilled, and respected by his peers. Think of a Captain Fantastic type. Kind of like The Ace, but not always played for comedy."

Those aren't sue trait for the last boss, though.
Last bosses are very often hyped up so beating them feels like an achievement, it's just that Pokémon almost never does that, preferring surprise final bosses.
Heck, I see people complain about Leon getting talked up too much but his buildup is very minor compared to some classic RPG villains like Sephiroth or Jon Irenicus.

 

[Huikyeong]

Look, sorry if I'm coming off way too angry or bitter, but I feel that people use the term Mary Sue so willy-nilly these days that it has effectively lost its intended original meaning and now may as well be shorthand for "character I personally don't like"

i agree. especially if that character is female. not to throw gender into it but I feel that female characters in particular can't be skilled or powerful without being labeled a mary sue, you know?

 

[Circus]

Those aren't sue trait for the last boss, though.
Last bosses are very often hyped up so beating them feels like an achievement, it's just that Pokémon almost never does that, preferring surprise final bosses.
Heck, I see people complain about Leon getting talked up too much but his buildup is very minor compared to some classic RPG villains like Sephiroth or Jon Irenicus.

I'd say the traits are still Sue traits, it just so happens that we as society just have a convention that sees that a Gary Stu / Mary Sue final boss isn't a bad thing.

There's no particular reason a Mary Sue has to be bad, after all. It's usually considered a bad thing because they tend to be annoying to read / hear / watch (especially in non-interactive media), but being annoying is a ... "good" trait in a final boss in a certain way. Beating a hard enemy feels good, beating a hard enemy that's also annoying is a whole other level of cathartic.

But yes, I'll handily admit that in videogames there are more egregious and less fun ways for a boss type character be a Mary Sue / Gary Stu. Forcing the player to lose for story purposes and being outright invincible without a certain weapon / build and so on come to mind.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I wouldn't say that's quite true. While I do agree with you that Cynthia and most other champions aren't Mary Sues (or Gary Stus) I wouldn't say that a Mary Sue has to be the main character / protagonist in a work today. While it did originate as a way to denounce self-insert characters which almost always are main characters, media has evolved to the point where a secondary character can be a Mary Sue.


The definition of Mary Sue that I'm used to is that of a character archetype or an overly idealized / perfect character, be they a main character or not, but it's important to say with any measure of certainty what is or isn't a Mary Sue because there are least thirteen different definitions lying around.

I never said that a Mary Sue had to be *the* main character, just *a* main character. Because Mary Sues by their very nature get the lion's share of the focus in a story. It's true that you don't necessarily have to be the main-main protagonist to be a focus-hog, but you'd still need to be either a main character or at least be elevated to one. Re-reading my original post, though, I realize I didn't really make that clear, so my b.

Overly idealized and/or perfect characters aren't necessarily Sues/Stus by default, though, because again, it's how the stories utilize the characters in question that truly cements Sueness. I already said that in the case of Pokemon Champions, the idolization they receive will ultimately serve to benefit the player, which is why I don't think any of them qualifies for a Sue because a truly Sue-ish character would be the one reaping all the benefits of their hype to the detriment of the story and the other characters. A Sue doesn't necessarily have to be "perfect" or "instantly skilled" to accomplish this, the story just has to be executed in a way that the character's flaws are either largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things compared to their virtues, and/or the narrative manages to contrive a way to make it so said flaws are actually virtues, meaning that the character in the end is never truly challenged in any meaningful way, and thus succeeds not by overcoming any real adversity, be it internal or external, but simply because... well, because.

True enough, and to be honest, I'm kind of surprised of how well he's received. Considering his status as a person of color and the fact that as far as I can tell from watching let's play footages of Sword and Shield (I might be wrong about this, I don't have a Switch or the games so I can't confirm it) he more or less seems to take away some opportunities that should have been dealt with by the player?

In fact I would say he's a Gary Stu because his whole character was built up to the Gary Stu archetype. TvTropes say:
"Ruggedly handsome, charming, skilled, and respected by his peers. Think of a Captain Fantastic type. Kind of like The Ace, but not always played for comedy."

While I can't say I love Leon's design (that beard really should have been the same color as his hair and good lord, who thought wearing a rug was a good idea?) I have seen fanfics being written for the sole purpose of having the MC end up with Leon, so, apparently there are people who consider him ruggedly handsome.

I dunno. Leon does have that horrible sense of direction that's often played for comedy. It doesn't really play into anything and it's largely a gag, but it is there. And as for the "ruggedly handsome" thing, I don't think physical appearance should factor into the equation much if at all because most fictional characters are inevitably going to be designed to be aesthetically appealing to a certain degree anyway.

That's not something intrinsically bad, mind you. Words change all the time and that's fine. That's a normal linguistic process all languages go through. That said, if people want to bandy the term Mary Sue around they probably should consider what is the proper definition they're using and whether there any biases clouding their judgement.

My problem with this changing of meanings, though, is that despite the core details of the original meaning being largely unknown, Mary Sue is a term that carries a lot of stigma that people are generally aware of, so by throwing the Mary Sue label around willy-nilly towards any and all characters that happened to be displeasing to you (I'm using "you" as a general term here) you're effectively shaming people for no good reason: writers are afraid of expanding their horizons out of fear of their characters being labeled as Sues, readers are ashamed of their tastes if it turns out that this character they liked so much is being called a term that they've heard is an indicator of bad writing... I just feel it makes too much toxicity in the creative environment, which is why when making constructive critiques of characters, instead of throwing labels around one should instead get to the point and analyze why a certain character just isn't working when there are others like them that worked just fine.

 

[Huikyeong]

Like if we are going by the original meaning, I can give you a perfect example of a Mary Sue who isn't from Pokemon.

Spoiler: non-pokemon stuff

Chris Thorndyke from Sonic X. Yes, he is a mary sue because characters go out of their way to be OOC to cater to him. The universe itself bends to cater to him. In fact, in the anime adaptations of the games, he does fill roles that are meant for other characters. The anime tries so hard to get us the audience to sympathize with him when he is a rich kid who lives with a maid, a butler, and his grandfather who all care for him. He also has three human friends at school. But SONIC is his only friend he cannot live without? But anyway, the most glaring moment of Chris being a Sue is the episode where Sonic goes back to his world. Like Sonic the Hedgehog, you know, SONIC THE HEDGEHOG, was willing to abandon his friends and let the two worlds collide and stop time... for Chris? That's OOC but you see what I mean? Mary Sue moment because the world and characters are willing to bend over for him. Y'know?

But anyway, I feel that people use the Sue label now for characters who people believe are too popular. I mean, if we are speaking Pokemon, have you seen Takuto?! TAKUTO HAD A DARKRAI AND USED IT AGAINST EVERY GYM LEADER AND WON THE LEAGUE! But Shirona is a Mary Sue?! Satoshi was literally kicking everyone's butts up until the Gigantamax Pikachu episode. Also that comment about Dande is correct. Though he's not a sue, he gets away with being powerful for a certain reason. But yeah, let female characters be skilled without being called a Sue.

 

[Circus]

I never said that a Mary Sue had to be *the* main character, just *a* main character. Because Mary Sues by their very nature get the lion's share of the focus in a story. It's true that you don't necessarily have to be the main-main protagonist to be a focus-hog, but you'd still need to be either a main character or at least be elevated to one. Re-reading my original post, though, I realize I didn't really make that clear, so my b.

Fair enough.

Overly idealized and/or perfect characters aren't necessarily Sues/Stus by default, though, because again, it's how the stories utilize the characters in question that truly cements Sueness. I already said that in the case of Pokemon Champions, the idolization they receive will ultimately serve to benefit the player, which is why I don't think any of them qualifies for a Sue because a truly Sue-ish character would be the one reaping all the benefits of their hype to the detriment of the story and the other characters. A Sue doesn't necessarily have to be "perfect" or "instantly skilled" to accomplish this, the story just has to be executed in a way that the character's flaws are either largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things compared to their virtues, and/or the narrative manages to contrive a way to make it so said flaws are actually virtues, meaning that the character in the end is never truly challenged in any meaningful way, and thus succeeds not by overcoming any real adversity, be it internal or external, but simply because... well, because.

I think the problem here is that we're approaching Mary Sueness in very different ways. It seems to me that you're assuming a Mary Sue is necessarily a bad thing, which I disagree with.

In my perspective, Mary Sue is just a shorthand for a number of characteristics that happen to be mostly disliked since seeing perfection tends to not make for riveting content. In fact, Sakamoto from "Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto", the original Mary Sue from "a Trekkie's tale" and to a lesser extent, Saitama from "One Punch Man" and Sai from "The Disastrous Life of Saiki K." are good examples of positive Mary Sues (by your definition even).

There they always come through adversity, and are the main characters, but since the point of the story isn't the battle itself, they're well received because their Mary Sueness is the gag.

So I associate Mary Sue with "perfect characters" because that's the natural generalization and I don't think there needs to be a judgement, while it looks like you're thinking of them as "perfect characters done poorly" because that tends to make the story worse (but not always as I've mentioned before).

I dunno. Leon does have that horrible sense of direction that's often played for comedy. It doesn't really play into anything and it's largely a gag, but it is there. And as for the "ruggedly handsome" thing, I don't think physical appearance should factor into the equation much if at all because most fictional characters are inevitably going to be designed to be aesthetically appealing to a certain degree anyway.

I mean, by your own definition above an irrelevant flaw can still a Mary Sue make. Plus, a lot of authors will intentionally do just this to try and avoid the Mary Sue nomenclature (think of how many characters you know that are introduced as shy or clumsy and then these flaws suddenly disappear or become irrelevant after a few token demonstrations).

My problem with this changing of meanings, though, is that despite the core details of the original meaning being largely unknown, Mary Sue is a term that carries a lot of stigma that people are generally aware of, so by throwing the Mary Sue label around willy-nilly towards any and all characters that happened to be displeasing to you (I'm using "you" as a general term here) you're effectively shaming people for no good reason: writers are afraid of expanding their horizons out of fear of their characters being labeled as Sues, readers are ashamed of their tastes if it turns out that this character they liked so much is being called a term that they've heard is an indicator of bad writing... I just feel it makes too much toxicity in the creative environment, which is why when making constructive critiques of characters, instead of throwing labels around one should instead get to the point and analyze why a certain character just isn't working when there are others like them that worked just fine.

Sure. I completely agree with you, nowadays using Mary Sue in a literary analysis - without explicitly mentioning what you mean by Mary Sue - is generally a bad idea, and even then I'd only recommend using the term if it's an endemic issue and using this nomenclature can help on making the text a lot smaller, or as in the case of this thread, someone (the OP) started using the term and it's shaping the discussion.

That said, I'd sooner recommend just stopping using Mary Sue than trying to stick to one particular definition. All the more so since the particular definition you're using isn't even the original meaning: as documented by TvTropes, Mary Sue just meant "author avatar" way back when in the late 70s / early 80s. Usually a woman, nominally because women tend to write more fanfic (which was and is true to this day, I suppose) but there's a probably an unhealthy dose of sexism in the mix as well, because of course there is.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I think the problem here is that we're approaching Mary Sueness in very different ways. It seems to me that you're assuming a Mary Sue is necessarily a bad thing, which I disagree with.

In my perspective, Mary Sue is just a shorthand for a number of characteristics that happen to be mostly disliked since seeing perfection tends to not make for riveting content. In fact, Sakamoto from "Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto", the original Mary Sue from "a Trekkie's tale" and to a lesser extent, Saitama from "One Punch Man" and Sai from "The Disastrous Life of Saiki K." are good examples of positive Mary Sues (by your definition even).

There they always come through adversity, and are the main characters, but since the point of the story isn't the battle itself, they're well received because their Mary Sueness is the gag.

So I associate Mary Sue with "perfect characters" because that's the natural generalization and I don't think there needs to be a judgement, while it looks like you're thinking of them as "perfect characters done poorly" because that tends to make the story worse (but not always as I've mentioned before).

Ah, okay. Yea, I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure if the term Mary Sue will ever actually shake off its negativity, though: you may not see it as negative (and now that you described why, it makes perfect sense why you don't), but unfortunately it's been used in a negative manner for so long by so many misinformed people that almost everyone is going to see any character being called a Mary Sue as being criticized (unfairly or not) rather than it being used as just a neutral descriptor.

I mean, by your own definition above an irrelevant flaw can still a Mary Sue make. Plus, a lot of authors will intentionally do just this to try and avoid the Mary Sue nomenclature (think of how many characters you know that are introduced as shy or clumsy and then these flaws suddenly disappear or become irrelevant after a few token demonstrations).

Well, the comment was more in response to the descriptor of "The Ace but done without comedy", since Leon does have comedic traits.

 

[Epic Spheal]

Him having a Charizard as an ace makes sense, though. He's basically a grown-up player character, so it's only natural a starter is his ace.

Yes it make sense for him to have starter as an ace, but I imagine the reception would've been better had it not been Charizard. A Galarian starter would've been best (I think most people tend to like seeing aces of champions be native to the region) but if they had to do Kanto I think Venusaur or Blastoise would've gone over a little better than Charizard (and I'm saying this as someone who likes Charizard).

I don't think she's a Mary Sue because I don't really think she has enough of a stage presence to even let us analyze her character. I've checked her quotes in DPP and she's pretty much a convenient excuse for an exposition dump, barely a character at all, really, much less anything resembling a Mary Sue by most definitions.

She is more of a charater in the anime which based on what I've seen in this thread, the version of her that's getting hit with the "Mary Sue" calls which I find really irritating. The complaints seems to be more lobbed against her anime version that ends up being inspiring to multiple characters in universe, and how her only flaw is not being able to choose what food she wants. I'm not saying I think she's a Mary Sue based on that but that's typically what's been used against her.

True enough, and to be honest, I'm kind of surprised of how well he's received. Considering his status as a person of color and the fact that as far as I can tell from watching let's play footages of Sword and Shield (I might be wrong about this, I don't have a Switch or the games so I can't confirm it) he more or less seems to take away some opportunities that should have been dealt with by the player?

In fact I would say he's a Gary Stu because his whole character was built up to the Gary Stu archetype. TvTropes say:
"Ruggedly handsome, charming, skilled, and respected by his peers. Think of a Captain Fantastic type. Kind of like The Ace, but not always played for comedy."

Well I'm glad he's been well received especially with him being POC. In fact I'm glad that this generation the most popular characters are the POC, I never thought I'd see that in the Pokemon fandom. Though there is a discussion with how problematic some fans treat the POC characters but that's for another thread.

While it's controversial, part of why he's been well received is that he actually steps up and proactively takes down threats instead of waiting for the player (who in universe is a child). It's one of those things about the OP child protagonist stories tend to make adults like Cynthia, Steven etc look blatantly incompetent when it shouldn't be the case (as in it can be hard for some of the fanbase to their champion status seriously if they never deal with threats).

As to the whole point about him fitting the archetype, the thing is he actually subverts it. On the surface he has it all: he's adored by the entire region, he legitimately skilled, genuinely nice and perceived as attractive. But the narrative does make a point that things are all that it seems. We learn quickly in Wedgehurst that he and Sonia have a soured rivalry and friendship and in Motostoke we learn via Sonia he actually had to raise Hop (in multiple translations this text is provided as him being a parental figure towards Hop). That right there shows he has complicated relationships that aren't usually present in Gary Stu archetypes as.

We also learn in the DLC that he wasn't able to get to the towers of mastery due to his poor sense of direction which locks him out of a very useful legendary Pokemon that would've been excellent on his team. It's an example of his flaw actually biting him in the butt. We also see in the note on him at Opal's gym that she finds him "hard to read" (this is also corroborated in the Twilight wings episode on him where Opal mentions she's can't get a read on whether he wants to win or to lose). This give a picture that Leon actually might be lonely at the top (which makes sense given the fact that he hasn't beaten and hasn't had one seriously threaten his title until the player shows up). And then you see his rare league card that mentions that "he's livelier now that he's no longer champion" This is again also corroborated by twilight wings with John mentioning "he wasn't really smiling" in the interviews AND in a Pokemon anime magazine article that detailed Leon and Raihan's sleeping habits with Leon's dream being about him being back in wedgehurst watching the rain and not being famous. The article literally stated "it's a pretty sad dream".

All of this to say is that Leon despite outwardly looking like an archetype of a Gary Stu has a bit more complexity than what typical Gary Stus have. Now there is an issue of how that narrative plays in the game (as in a lot of the stuff is just mentioned off-handedly and never touched upon). A lot of this could've been expanded upon in the DLC or the postgame as that stuff about Leon is more interesting than the public image of him presented throughout the game (him being unbeatable and a massive charizard fan). A lot of those fanfics you referenced in your post about people finding him handsome tend to go into the deeper aspects of Leon that I just mentioned.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Yes it make sense for him to have starter as an ace, but I imagine the reception would've been better had it not been Charizard. A Galarian starter would've been best (I think most people tend to like seeing aces of champions be native to the region) but if they had to do Kanto I think Venusaur or Blastoise would've gone over a little better than Charizard (and I'm saying this as someone who likes Charizard).

Given that Sword and Shield came out over 20 years after the franchise's debut, Leon could easily represent the original players who picked Charmander and contributed to Charizard becoming the fan favorite that it is.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Given that Sword and Shield came out over 20 years after the franchise's debut, Leon could easily represent the original players who picked Charmander and contributed to Charizard becoming the fan favorite that it is.

Yeah, but isn't that a bit of a middle finger to those players who picked Bulbasaur or Squirtle instead? Is their contribution to the franchise's success worth nothing just because they dared have different tastes? Why don't players who picked Bulbasaur or Squirtle get to be represented as awesome successful Champions too?

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Yeah, but isn't that a bit of a middle finger to those players who picked Bulbasaur or Squirtle instead? Is their contribution to the franchise's success worth nothing just because they dared have different tastes? Why don't players who picked Bulbasaur or Squirtle get to be represented as awesome successful Champions too?

Because the fact is that Charizard is the most popular of the bunch, i.e. it was chosen by most players. I'm not saying the other tastes are wrong, just that Charizard is objectively the most popular one of the three.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Because the fact is that Charizard is the most popular of the bunch, i.e. it was chosen by most players. I'm not saying the other tastes are wrong, just that Charizard is objectively the most popular one of the three.

Yeah, I get that, I was just saying that to me it feels a little mean to shun fans of the other two in that way. Then again, I've personally always liked the three Kanto Starters about equally, so I was always baffled by the rather strong fights people got into over which one was the best.

 

[Circus]

Ah, okay. Yea, I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure if the term Mary Sue will ever actually shake off its negativity, though: you may not see it as negative (and now that you described why, it makes perfect sense why you don't), but unfortunately it's been used in a negative manner for so long by so many misinformed people that almost everyone is going to see any character being called a Mary Sue as being criticized (unfairly or not) rather than it being used as just a neutral descriptor.

Fair enough, there is indeed quite a long history of the term.

Well, the comment was more in response to the descriptor of "The Ace but done without comedy", since Leon does have comedic traits.

I had originally interpreted that as comedy about being the ace, not comedy in general, but I can see that point of view.

She is more of a charater in the anime which based on what I've seen in this thread, the version of her that's getting hit with the "Mary Sue" calls which I find really irritating. The complaints seems to be more lobbed against her anime version that ends up being inspiring to multiple characters in universe, and how her only flaw is not being able to choose what food she wants. I'm not saying I think she's a Mary Sue based on that but that's typically what's been used against her.

Since I can't remember the DP anime arc (or possibly BW? I think she was in that one too?) I can't really comment on this, but if this is the case I agree that it wouldn't be enough to be a Mary Sue in my books.

Well I'm glad he's been well received especially with him being POC. In fact I'm glad that this generation the most popular characters are the POC, I never thought I'd see that in the Pokemon fandom. Though there is a discussion with how problematic some fans treat the POC characters but that's for another thread.

Indeed, for all that flaws I feel the latest generations have, I'll happily admit that lack of racial representation isn't one of them. Gen VII and VIII have loads of people of color and that's a very nice touch.

While it's controversial, part of why he's been well received is that he actually steps up and proactively takes down threats instead of waiting for the player (who in universe is a child). It's one of those things about the OP child protagonist stories tend to make adults like Cynthia, Steven etc look blatantly incompetent when it shouldn't be the case (as in it can be hard for some of the fanbase to their champion status seriously if they never deal with threats).

This is a bit of a double-edged take though, because while it is good at least in theory, it also takes agency from the player. When say, Leon goes to deal with the dynamax Pokémon going rogue it makes sense in-game but is annoying out-of-game because that seems like an interesting boss battle for me as the player.

I suppose the fact that there is no clear status of government doesn't really help either. We more or less assume the league is supposed to be a government body when there's really no evidence of that being the case. For all we know, the champions are just star athletes and their help should be taken as a plus instead of a given?

And I like I said before, it can be tricky to get them to be competent without making the player feel like a deuteragonist in their own playthrough.

As to the whole point about him fitting the archetype, the thing is he actually subverts it. On the surface he has it all: he's adored by the entire region, he legitimately skilled, genuinely nice and perceived as attractive. But the narrative does make a point that things are all that it seems. We learn quickly in Wedgehurst that he and Sonia have a soured rivalry and friendship and in Motostoke we learn via Sonia he actually had to raise Hop (in multiple translations this text is provided as him being a parental figure towards Hop). That right there shows he has complicated relationships that aren't usually present in Gary Stu archetypes as.

We also learn in the DLC that he wasn't able to get to the towers of mastery due to his poor sense of direction which locks him out of a very useful legendary Pokemon that would've been excellent on his team. It's an example of his flaw actually biting him in the butt. We also see in the note on him at Opal's gym that she finds him "hard to read" (this is also corroborated in the Twilight wings episode on him where Opal mentions she's can't get a read on whether he wants to win or to lose). This give a picture that Leon actually might be lonely at the top (which makes sense given the fact that he hasn't beaten and hasn't had one seriously threaten his title until the player shows up). And then you see his rare league card that mentions that "he's livelier now that he's no longer champion" This is again also corroborated by twilight wings with John mentioning "he wasn't really smiling" in the interviews AND in a Pokemon anime magazine article that detailed Leon and Raihan's sleeping habits with Leon's dream being about him being back in wedgehurst watching the rain and not being famous. The article literally stated "it's a pretty sad dream".

All of this to say is that Leon despite outwardly looking like an archetype of a Gary Stu has a bit more complexity than what typical Gary Stus have. Now there is an issue of how that narrative plays in the game (as in a lot of the stuff is just mentioned off-handedly and never touched upon). A lot of this could've been expanded upon in the DLC or the postgame as that stuff about Leon is more interesting than the public image of him presented throughout the game (him being unbeatable and a massive charizard fan). A lot of those fanfics you referenced in your post about people finding him handsome tend to go into the deeper aspects of Leon that I just mentioned.

From what you've mentioned, that doesn't really sound like a subversion. It's more of a deconstruction, or maybe a reconstruction even.

Basically, Leon was built to be a Gary Stu archetype and show why that archetype isn't actually that great - think something like BoJack Horseman - except it was a lot less well written due to time constraints and the fact Leon wasn't the main character.

And therein lies the question: is an archetype done more realistically not the same archetype? Because the definition I'm using makes no judgement on whether a Stu is bad or not, as long as if fits the archetype it's still a Stu.

Heck, I even mentioned Saitama some posts ago as an example of a Gary Stu, and in many ways Superman would also fit for the very same reasons - they're (pretty much) unbeatable and often win using minimal effort - but they're also deeper characters than just fighting, have their insecurities and don't really have everything going on for them.

And I still stand by that definition - they are overly idealized fighters in worlds where fights are the focus; those fights, whether directly or indirectly lead them to a lot of prestige and power; and they also more or less cloud them to the fact that these fights aren't really the best way to solve a lot of issues. Any subsequent deconstruction doesn't change the fact that they're written as those archetypes.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Epic Spheal]

This is a bit of a double-edged take though, because while it is good at least in theory, it also takes agency from the player. When say, Leon goes to deal with the dynamax Pokémon going rogue it makes sense in-game but is annoying out-of-game because that seems like an interesting boss battle for me as the player.

I suppose the fact that there is no clear status of government doesn't really help either. We more or less assume the league is supposed to be a government body when there's really no evidence of that being the case. For all we know, the champions are just star athletes and their help should be taken as a plus instead of a given?

And I like I said before, it can be tricky to get them to be competent without making the player feel like a deuteragonist in their own playthrough.

That's why I said it was controversial in my original post. I was just pointing out the reason why people like the fact that he took charge because it makes sense in universe for the most powerful trainer around to try to deal with stuff especially with many generations having the champion be on the sidelines. And when it comes down the biggest scenario (defeating the Eternatus) Leon is taken out of the picture even though he attempts to do it himself. Also in the post-game Leon doesn't interfere at all as you, Hop, Sonia and Piers travel around Galar (although there is a plothole in the sense that Wyndon has two powerspots and yet apparently no dynamaxed Pokemon there. I think there was a chance to get a max raid battle in with Hop/Piers/Player/Leon and even Hop/Sonia/Player/Leon as Hop getting battle alongside Leon and giving a chance for Leon to give more much-needed praise to Hop would've been cool to see).

Personally as someone who got really annoyed with gen 7's plot of helping Lillie and with gen 6 having Diantha be nowhere to be found, having the adult in the situation act like one was refreshing (but then again I'm not one who relishes in playing the OP protag who saves the day, Pokemon Emerald and Pokemon White were the only times I truly enjoyed the role of saving the day). Also gen 7 to me made me feel like the deuteragonist to Lillie's story by having to step in to help her so much

I think Pokemon Black/White had the best iteration of balance. The player gets plenty of chances to go up against N and save the day, but the gym leaders, rivals and champion also step up to try to help out. It gave the player a chance to be the hero but not without making the other supposedly competent trainers look incompetent and without making you feel you're watching someone else's story.

From what you've mentioned, that doesn't really sound like a subversion. It's more of a deconstruction, or maybe a reconstruction even.

Basically, Leon was built to be a Gary Stu archetype and show why that archetype isn't actually that great - think something like BoJack Horseman - except it was a lot less well written due to time constraints and the fact Leon wasn't the main character.

And therein lies the question: is an archetype done more realistically not the same archetype? Because the definition I'm using makes no judgement on whether a Stu is bad or not, as long as if fits the archetype it's still a Stu.

Heck, I even mentioned Saitama some posts ago as an example of a Gary Stu, and in many ways Superman would also fit for the very same reasons - they're (pretty much) unbeatable and often win using minimal effort - but they're also deeper characters than just fighting, have their insecurities and don't really have everything going on for them.

And I still stand by that definition - they are overly idealized fighters in worlds where fights are the focus; those fights, whether directly or indirectly lead them to a lot of prestige and power; and they also more or less cloud them to the fact that these fights aren't really the best way to solve a lot of issues. Any subsequent deconstruction doesn't change the fact that they're written as those archetypes.

You make a fair point. I actually like characters like Saitama that are built up to be this ideal archetype but have other things going are super interesting to me personally which is why I criticize SwSh for hinting at Leon's struggles but not exploring them a little more. He didn't necessarily have to have a long dedicated arc like Sonia, Bede or Hop but just a few cutscenes that emphasize that burden he has which I think would've won a few people over who find him too bland. Because a lot of what I mentioned is tucked away in optional NPC dialogue or things you don't have to interact with, you could go through the story and not realize any of that is a part of his character and just end up with the "I'm the unbeatable champion who's pants with direction and likes Charizard" which makes him seem flatter than what I think Gamefreak was intending.

I see from your earlier posts that you don't necessarily see the Mary Sue/Gary Stu archetype as bad thing, but like others have said, it has such a negative connotation just using it on the internet will probably cause defensiveness in others who use the label as bad. Plus also nowadays Mary Sue/Gary Stu is also just thrown around as a way to say "this is a character I don't particularly care for".