Do you think the show has improved since Kanto?

[Caseydia]

Yes it has improved in certain ways. I know people don't like Unova due to the fact that it seems like it's on a different level from what DP and AG was, but Unova is better than Kanto anyday.








P.S.- This is my opinion only. Doesn't mean that it's true. Please I need no arguements. I'm trying to get over forums anxiety from last year dealing with other topics. I don't want to relapse.

 

[Cybersai]

Many video game and anime fans all over the internet state that "the first season of Pokémon was the best, the new seasons are terrible." I'm curious to know what Bulbagarden members think. Do you believe that the show has improved since Kanto (as in storylines, humor, character development, etc.)?

You do realize the people who say this have likely never watched a single episode of Pokemon since their childhood? The vast majority of ratings from the original seasons came from people who were just swept up in the fad of pokemon and watched it because every kid did. After the fad died somewhere in mid-Johto, they simply lost interest and moved on to whatever else.

Any childhood fad series is like this, just look at Power Rangers, Ninja Turtles, Dragonball Z, or anything else that was insanely popular when it first began...and then after the fad died only the true fans remained for later incarnation.

I think most pokemon fans will always enjoy Kanto for what it is, the rest of the series would exist without it. However the format of the show changed so much that you can see where it evolved. Unfortunately Best Wishes did seem to take a step back, but I am reserving judgement until it actually ends.

 

[MizuTaipu]

Many video game and anime fans all over the internet state that "the first season of Pokémon was the best, the new seasons are terrible." I'm curious to know what Bulbagarden members think. Do you believe that the show has improved since Kanto (as in storylines, humor, character development, etc.)?

You do realize the people who say this have likely never watched a single episode of Pokemon since their childhood? The vast majority of ratings from the original seasons came from people who were just swept up in the fad of pokemon and watched it because every kid did. After the fad died somewhere in mid-Johto, they simply lost interest and moved on to whatever else.

I've seen some people state: "omg i just watched a new episode of pokeman and it was crappy." Of course, they never state why it was crappy, but there you go.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Going through the episode list for the Indigo League and Orange Islands, I don't think is the case. The focus tended to be on the relationship between humans and Pokemon and different ways they interacted and effected each other, which is the main theme the games try to get across. I think the change you're referring to is that latter seasons focused a lot more on the battling and actual training of Pokemon and less on the actual adventure and experiences it brings to the characters.

Perhaps it's the continuity between regions that kills this "Kanto feel". Viewers would have already seen Ash travel through regions, collect badges and compete in big tournament at the end. It's not a new experience for the character, despite the change in environment, so it wouldn't be a new experience for the viewers, either. This is maybe one thing the writers failed to impove upon over time: keeping their main character fresh and giving him new, unique experiences.

I guess thats one way you can look at it. Nowadays pokemon themselves are getting more focus,more training and better battles. But back than pokemon was more about exploring world,having Ash,Misty and Brock portrayed as group which discovered new regions and pokemon having fun together. Their dialogue and interacting was natural and spontaneous not seeming forced and this was probably one of main reasons why so many people liked them in Kanto and Johto. Granted Johto felt different from Kanto in many aspects,but to many original trio still felt like family and i cant deny it when looking back.

I also have to admit how original series had generally more touching and easy to come to viewers heart feeling.Like "Bye Bye Butterfree", goodbye scene with Pikachu,when Ash was turned into stone, when Misty left cast(one of most impacting and sad scenes),when Latios died,etc,et.

Speaking of emotions i also remember back in day pokemon themselves also used to be fleshed out better in personality aspect. Nowadays pokemon individually are treated better with almost everyone having its character explored,but before while writers only focused on few groups pokemon i felt they done better job at portrayal of their characterization and feelings.

I suppose reason why in original series it can be noticed such discrepancy emotionally wise with characters themselves having more tearing moments,was because of different tone . Aside from formula being focused more on humans and their relationship,going by ex head writer mr,Shudo pokemon was also initially attempted to be written as family show in which all generations could find something to relate to and enjoy.
Thats why back than promotion of games fall in second plan too with writers being more bold in taking anime of route, adding more of their own imagination into it.

About continuity it may be,but to many Ash felt fresh in Hoenn when becoming more mature taking mentor role to May, or when he tried to conquer battle Frontier coming out as winner in end. You could tell he grew and developed as trainer until Unova when he was regressed to some extent,and lack of continuity having older companions(like Misty, May,Brock etc. abandoned and forgotten) is damaging reputation pokemon as series used to have.

I've seen some people state: "omg i just watched a new episode of pokeman and it was crappy." Of course, they never state why it was crappy, but there you go.

THIS.
I cant count number of times where i heard many people saying how they gave chance to new series still preferring original series over it. Many of them claim how pokemon had better chemistry when original trio was around wanting them back, how show wasnt only marketing tool and how writers used to be more creative.

They also often state how bad decisions from writers are responsible for "new series" having only fraction of demographic, pokemon used to had when it was on peak of popularity.

Now personally while i prefer older seasons,i also liked a lot Hoenn and DP having many good things going for them. I also cant deny how writing in pokemon also improved on so many levels since Kanto days,and while they are not superior in every aspect(with there being lot of room to fix some things) new series have their qualities.

 

[jokool]

Many video game and anime fans all over the internet state that "the first season of Pokémon was the best, the new seasons are terrible." I'm curious to know what Bulbagarden members think.

Funny how there hasn't been a single vote for "No, the first season will always be the best season."

Do you believe that the show has improved since Kanto (as in storylines, humor, character development, etc.)?

Kanto was good, but the show did improve in some areas as it moved along.

 

[MizuTaipu]

Many video game and anime fans all over the internet state that "the first season of Pokémon was the best, the new seasons are terrible." I'm curious to know what Bulbagarden members think.

Funny how there hasn't been a single vote for "No, the first season will always be the best season."

Well, I guess that was expected since everyone one here adores the new seasons. I hope that some non-anime fans here might discover this thread and discuss the topic.

 

[Cybersai]

The reason for the difference is places like Bulbagrden and Serebii are filled with fans of the anime who stuck with it for 15 years.

Meanwhile if you go to places like YouTube, deviantart or such, it's filled with people who barely watched anything after mid-Johto and if they see a random newer episode they just consider it crap. Keep in mind these people don't really rewatch the older shows either.

Keep in mind there are people who legitimately dislike BW on this forum, or at least parts of it, and this is justified by them watching it so it's understandable.

 

[Jukain]

Well, even if you were to get the opinion of people who primarily just play the games, it may still be divided between the people who either loved or hated the anime back then. It may have just been that I got into forums at the very tail end of Johto, but I remember that it was cool to hate on the anime back then, and that mentality persisted through AG. So I don't think even the original series is sacred to some people, but I'm unsure if a lot of those people have disappeared by now. I certainly don't remember if the people who are as old or older than I am are still around.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

The reason for the difference is places like Bulbagrden and Serebii are filled with fans of the anime who stuck with it for 15 years.

Meanwhile if you go to places like YouTube, deviantart or such, it's filled with people who barely watched anything after mid-Johto and if they see a random newer episode they just consider it crap. Keep in mind these people don't really rewatch the older shows either.

Keep in mind there are people who legitimately dislike BW on this forum, or at least parts of it, and this is justified by them watching it so it's understandable.

I wouldnt be so sure about that though. I saw plenty of such mindset prevailing on various formus as well like pokecommunity or pokeelite, and on serebii its not so rare that you can find people who claim how original series were better than any new saga which came afterwards either.

Judging by their comments they seem to be quite familiar with new characters and what happened in Hoenn,Sinnoh etc too showing that they gave them chance, still preferring Kanto and first series in general claiming how anime had best chemistry and humor with Ash,Misty and Brock as cast. How show used to be more emotion driven with emphasis being put on exploring world of pokemon and build up of relationship between characters themselves.

They dislike that pokemon became closer to games,they miss wacky plots, unique story arcs specific for first seasons and all around different formula anime used to have.

Fact that many of those fans refused to watch Hoenn and DP,starting to come back to show when BW started out says a lot . Of course they still havent given up from wanting original trio reunited either,something i wouldnt object too because i think they deserve one last hura as group having potential to bring something new.

 

[Cybersai]

Not really. You can easily look up some summaries and pictures and know what's going on in the episodes without ever watching them. Its pretty damn obvious that people aren't going to sit there watching through episodes they don't care about, so those people are likely people who simply got caught up in the fad of pokemon and lost interest in the middle of Johto. Then years later they checked the anime out of curiosity, saw it was very different than before, and never bothered to get back into it.

Thankfully the vast majority of original series fans who disliked the Johto saga continued to watch into AG and beyond, some stopped watching during the VA change, but otherwise most also continued into DP. It seems now in BW some have finally gotten tired of the anime, but even so that is still two series later and we can't be expected to watch the anime forever.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Not really. You can easily look up some summaries and pictures and know what's going on in the episodes without ever watching them. Its pretty damn obvious that people aren't going to sit there watching through episodes they don't care about, so those people are likely people who simply got caught up in the fad of pokemon and lost interest in the middle of Johto. Then years later they checked the anime out of curiosity, saw it was very different than before, and never bothered to get back into it.

Thats only half true. There are plenty of fans just like me which watched new regions ,gave chance to new characters etc still preferring original series. Lack of being familiar with new sagas cant be applied to everyone,with people simply having different preferences and criteria of what is going to be enjoyable to them and what wont.

Another thing which is surprising, is that many of those which later came back to fandom claim how they tried watching new series following them for first 10 to 15 episodes quickly getting bored if it and claiming how Kanto and Johto are still superior. I dont think its only faded memory either,because they happen to be very knowledgeable about older episodes remembering even tiny details.
Its also weird how good number of them decided to start watching pokemon regularly again with BW.

Personally i can see why they still prefer Kanto and older series in general over Hoenn and DP. In older series there used to be more humor,show was driven more by emotion and formula in general was based around humans,exploring of world and build up of their relationship while less on pokemon themselves. Other factor was that in older days writers stick less with games using their own creativity quite a lot, which on positive side brought more unpredictability due to not following so closely game route.

That and original trio is incredibly popular cast with many people enjoying in their genuine and skilled portrayal of relationship. They brought conflict, humor, tension and promoted friendship being clearly attached to each other.

"Gotta Catch Ya Later" showed that very well,and departure wouldnt be so emotional and touching if there didnt existed strong bond between Ash, Misty and Brock.
Such things sell, leave impact and are recipe for success.

Thankfully the vast majority of original series fans who disliked the Johto saga continued to watch into AG and beyond, some stopped watching during the VA change, but otherwise most also continued into DP. It seems now in BW some have finally gotten tired of the anime, but even so that is still two series later and we can't be expected to watch the anime forever.

Not exactly majority. Most older fans left when fad started to diminish in mid Johto,and afterwards i remember Misty leaving and Va changes took away good chunk of fanbase too. However empty places were filled with new generations of kids and good chunk of older fans which stopped before came back later to show.

Which was testament to strong status pokemon as show established, being good in attracting people toward it.

 

[Cybersai]

Most older fans are still watching. Look at the age numbers, most people are over 18 here.

As for people upset with the dub change they can go Japanese only.

 

[Blue1225]

As of DP I thought the series had finally hit its stride ad that the writers were getting ready for the swan song. As of BW those thoughts have been completely erased from my mind. I think its best to say there have been improvements in some areas, but not in others. I wouldn't say Kanto was perfect, but the feel of it has never been duplicated. (Post 1,000)

 

[Cybersai]

Its a bit of a mixed bag. I'll say Kanto was the most cohesive written saga, but it also has its own flaws that were ironed out as the anime progressed.

Kanto just has the benefit of the entire series being "new and fresh" at the time, so we didn't know what to expect. The other sagas all have the formula set out for them.

Show definitely improved since the tedious Johto arc however.

 

[Caseydia]

With all of the things going on now, I'd say it is definetly an approvement from waht it was.

 

[Cybersai]

Interesting to note how the poll results show that most people feel the anime has either improved or been relatively good in some areas since the end of Kanto.

Goes to show you when you make a poll in a fanbase of actually active pokemon anime fans, instead of random people who haven't watched the show since the fad died in early/mid Johto, that the general opinion of the main anime fans knows what the show is about.

 

[Ash Ketchum!]

Of course the show has become better since Kanto. If a franchise wanted to become better, the producers would always want to outdo their previous efforts. But I think people should still respect Kanto as a good foundation for the show.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Interesting to note how the poll results show that most people feel the anime has either improved or been relatively good in some areas since the end of Kanto.

Goes to show you when you make a poll in a fanbase of actually active pokemon anime fans, instead of random people who haven't watched the show since the fad died in early/mid Johto, that the general opinion of the main anime fans knows what the show is about.

I wouldnt be so sure about that though. Basing what is general consensus among fans on poll results is rather invalid indication to go by, because on forums only few fans come on daily basis with there never existing big discrepancy between options.
There are plenty fan who prefer OS over new sagas giving chance to AG and DP never satisfying them to same degree like previous seasons did. That doesnt mean they dont acknowledge flaws original series had,but they still prefer them over anything else because they find it more fun and intriguing.

It ultimately depends on what you consider to mean improved.

I think we can all agree how anime without doubt improved in some fields since Kanto, but not all.

It improved in some aspects, like battles becoming better, writers developing characters and stir better,rivals being properly treated etc.

Biggest improvement which can be noticed in anime is in battles, becoming more detailed with more effort being put into it. Rivals and pokemon are by far better being treated nowdays as well.Back in day only few of them had their personalities fleshed out gaining some development,but today show is more focused on treating group pokemon like individuals gaining some notable growth. As opposite to Ash having one rival which appears after every 50 or so episodes, from DP and onwards writers finally got things right with Paul being first real rival main protagonist had in true sense of that word with competition between trainers being used to full potential and carefully fleshed out. Villains are also being treated better influencing more anime storyline like it was case with Team Galactic or Hunter J.

Characters are being developed more ,with May and Dawn being probably most fleshed out female companions gaining massive growth,with anime not being anymore centralized around Ash and his journey. Granted in BW formula is back to Ash as only main star again but Iris and Cilan have more defined goals, ad writers learned how giving rivals to all companions helps to move their story a lot.

However i have to admit,that in older days pokemon series had that fresh and adventurous aspect to them with journey being more about exploring world of pokemon,exploration of friendship between traveling companions with anime having more emotion to it.
For instance "Bye,Bye Butterfree", "Pikachu Goodbye!","Gotta Catch YA Later", when Ash died in first movie etc are hard to ignore and stay indifferent.

Plots used to be more creative imo and anime sticking less to games, brought that air of unpredictability to it with viewers never knowing what to expect out of it. Writers used more of their own imagination back than testing out various things to see what works and what doesnt bringing that doze of originality into whole thing.In older series there used to be generally more comedy, spirit and charm with whole anime not focusing so much on game promotion like its case nowadays. Arcs used to be more unique(Sabrina, St.Anne, Orange Islands as season as whole or Whirl Cup are one of most popular mini stories for a reason).

Chemistry between main group was zealous,endearing and lively being highly intriguing.Ash,Misty and Brock brought conflict, comedy, entertainment and aspect friendship being clearly attached to each other which scored huge popularity.
Imo, they and BW group(as second) are having best dynamics out of all main cast combinations in pokemon.

So imo in technical sense pokemon improved without doubt,but in emotional and comedy aspect quality dropped a bit with previous sagas being more creative in that aspect.

 

[Rocketshipper]

I think its definitly improved in many ways. Kanto's battles are terrible by todays standards, and thats not even including the pity badges Ash didn't even earn. Development for the pokemon and trainers is also much improved nowadays, especially when it comes to actual training and learning new moves. And they've definitly learned how to write rivals better.

On the other hand though, I will say the older Kanto season (and I'm including Orange in their too) has a few advantages in its initial run that the later seasons have lacked. I don't really buy that whole "Kanto feel" argument, the only "Kanto Feel" I remember is bizare out of place feeling storylines (like psycho Sabrina) and cop-outs (pity badges anyone?) But there are a few positive things about Kanto. One is pacing. The fastest paced season we've had since Kanto is BW, and of course we don't know for sure if it will stay that way into the future, the rest have all been epicly long. And though its nice that they started to learn in AG how to do a long series *without* resorting to 50% filler, I still tend to feel that, all things being equal, shorter is prefferable to longer. In Kanto/Orange everything just moved at a breakneck pace, and it felt like we were really going somewhere, and not just dilly-dallying around with every other stranger we met along the road. And that kind of segways into the other advantage I think Kanto had...a sense of our journey actually going somewhere! Back in the Kanto days we had no idea how long this show was going to last, for all we knew Ash would challenge the E4 and beat Gary and become a master as soon as he entered the League. And I remember watching the final League episode, and seeing that scene at the end where Ash is remembering all his battles and says to Pikachu "well, I guess we better get back to training" or something to that effect, and feeling so excited about what the future for the show could hold. Ash had finished his R/B/G journey and lost the league, but there was still adventure ahead of him, and I had no idea what it would hold! And the Orange league followed and I really got into it, we have a story arc not based on a game plot, with new original gyms and leaders with unique gym challenges, and a new island chain setting, and it was just awesome. Plus Ash actually won the darn league, beating the previously undefeated Drake and his Dragonite, and it really seemed like a cool step forward for his goals. And then along comes Johto. and AG. and DP. And though they have greatly improved some aspects of the show, its here were the kind of unsettling sense of "foreboding" sets in. The formula is set in stone now. Ash goes to a new region, catches new pokemon, battles a new set of 8 gym leaders, enters the league, and loses. Lather Rinse Repeat. Again, while I think the newer seasons have improved vastly on a lot of aspects, they're just remaking the same arc over and over again, trying to improve it bit by bit each time. What I feel like the series has lost since Kanto is that feeling of them actually doing something and being creative with the direction of the show, that feeling of the unexpected. We know what to expect. Most of us are totally resigned to the fact that they'll probably have another region after this with 8 more leaders and another league to lose in, and another one after that, and after that, etc. *sigh*.

The thing that really kept me going and interested in the show into AG and DP was not Ash's now completely formulaic adventures, but the new Contest arc introduced with May and Dawn. It helped break into the formula of Ash's quest (of course, only to establish a formula of its own ^^) and May and Dawn, by virtue of the fact that they were always ultimately *temporary* party members confined to their own generation, were allowed to go through a fully developed journey and conclusion without then sticking around to rehash it over and over, something that is LOOOOOONG overdue for Ash.

I guess in the end that basicly sums it up. Kanto had a lot of flaws and there are a lot fo things I don't like about it, but it was fresh and new and adventurous and we had no idea where things were going. The show has improved a lot since then, but its imroved incrimentally by remaking the same thing over and over, instead of just continuing to be fresh and go in new directions and stuff. I blaim Nintendo really.

for a final somewhat minor point in Kanto's favor...Kanto had way better dub music ^^. All the dub openings after the 3rd have felt completely phoned in, while they actually seemed like they were trying back in the day, giving us great opening themes as well as a lot of good and memorable insert songs and stuff on the albums. But of course the effort put into the music back then was more linked to the over all hot popularity of the show at the time, rathe than anything related to the quality itself.

 

[Rex Kamex]

Compared to Jouto, I think the animation in Kanto was a lot better. I'm not sure what it is, but even Takeda's horrendous animation is bearable in Kanto. I also think the Kanto BGM has yet to be matched, but that's probably just nostalgia speaking.

In terms of Japanese music and dub music, I feel the music was better in Kanto (even though, Japanese-wise, Kanto had more background music anyway). But I like much of AG's Japanese music.

Over the weeks I'm using Pokemon.com to catch up on Best Wishes! (dub wise) and her what the music's like (well, the Japanese music still used), not to mention look at the show's quality. I've been on forums like these way more than watching Pokemon episodes for the past several years. Must... make things more balanced...