Gold and Silver DS: Discussion, Debate, Wishlists

[Maxim Posthumus]

No worries if they did because Maxim actually considers himself a racisty:

as well as being homophobic, an "enemy" of atheism and a supporter of dictatorships...
source: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User:Maxim
Maxim darling pray tell how you can be racist sometimes? That doesn't really make much sense.

That was long time ago. I'm not really that racist. I just think that every country has its rights to say "no" for immigrants. But I DO NOT despise other races by any way. Not to mention that my opinions used to be more nationalist in the past (pretty nationalist but with much hate to my country's system). Now I'm rather "patriotic" (though I still think that my country sucks in some aspects).

However, I KNEW that someone would bring this up.

There is nothing racist between my reasons. A black character would simply not work in a Japanese series. Japaneses draw black people too comically (and stereotypically) and it's a fact (I'm not saying this applies to ALL animes, but many of them). That's all.

That's America for ya, one mere wrong word can make you end up in court...

 

[Silktree]

I can see the angle and the argument, but I am not 100% sure I agree with the conclusion. The Wallace/Juan situation was part of Emerald's story, which was a development of the Ruby/Sapphire plot that had come before it. The remakes will probably only add on events after the main plot line and not change the story or characters of the original G/S versions. At least if Fire Red and Leaf Green are anything to go by.

FireRed and LeafGreen didn't leave the original story completely in tact. First of all, a female player character was added. Granted, since the player characters are silent, this affects the gameplay more than it does the story (particularly since unlike in Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald, and now the DS versions, the character not selected by the player didn't appear as an NPC). Nevertheless, the fact that those remakes borrowed a concept that had been introduced in a third game (Crystal) challenges Maxim's opinion about what remakes can and can't do.

Secondly, the first three Sevii Islands and Celio were showcased prior to the first Elite Four challenge, so they were in fact incorporated into the original storyline. Unfortunately, the opportunity wasn't used for another Team Rocket encounter before Giovanni disbanded the team; while One Island had Moltres and a foreshadowing of the post-National Pokédex quest, the other two islands featured a rather pointless sidequest involving Lostelle. Only after completing the National Pokédex could players collect the Ruby and Sapphire items, while catching Generation II critters and finding out about Team Rocket's plans post-Giovanni (tying the story to Generation II).

As for what would make it justifiable to have Bruno leave the Elite Four, I have a solid idea to which I alluded in previous posts: Bruno will join Lorelei and Agatha on Sevii Islands, and the three of them will be ones of the tag partners in the remakes. The basis for this suggestion is FireRed and LeafGreen's discovery that Lorelei's native home is Four Island, and the fact that she has already left the Elite Four once (temporarily) in order to avert a problem on the island. The incident in that case was Team Rocket's illegal obtaining of the Pokémon native to Icefall Cave; Lorelei returned to Indigo Plateau as soon as Red/Leaf had freed the Pokémon from Team Rocket's hold.

Could the reason for Lorelei's permanent leave from the Elite Four in Generation II be a far more urgent incident that has taken place on Sevii Islands? What if the eruption of Cinnabar Island's volcano is just one instance of a series of natural disasters that occurred south to Kanto? If nothing more, a man in FireRed and LeafGreen's Mt. Ember hints that the resident volcano, which is enormous (unlike Cinnabar's), could explode one way and take everyone's lives. Due to being small, Cinnabar's volcano's eruption was only followed by the hurling of boulders that cut off Seafoam Islands indefinitely, and no loss of life was endured. But it is established in game canon that that would not be case if Mt. Ember were to erupt...

Does nature in the Pokémon world even have a mind of its own, or is there always an underlying cause related to a mythical Pokémon? After all, the knowledge of Heatran's legend allowed Lucas/Dawn to prevent Stark Moutain's eruption. But is it always so simple? If a certain unknown is involved (refer to my user name), it may take an entire quest to find the solution to the problem posed by Mt. Ember's impending explosion. Thus, it could very well be that Lorelei, Agatha and Bruno resigned from the Elite Four right after the eruption of Cinnabar's volcano, and have been looking for ways to avert a far more dire calamity ever since. Of course, one would think that they would form a new organization, and in that case there would have to be a leader. This is how Leaf would come into the story.

Fire Red and Leaf Green made no major changes to the gym leaders or the E4 so there is no precedent for the suggestions presented, even if they are logical and understandable.

But there was no need in that - the original Red and Green games were fairly complete in terms of the Gym Leaders and the Elite Four. Yellow had already done changes to the Gym Leaders' teams that had raised the overall difficulty level, which most players had apparently not favored.

The Gold and Silver remakes are different story. For one thing, Crystal made no alterations to trainers' teams, whereas Emerald and Platinum followed Yellow's footsteps (without changing the difficulty to a discernible degree). More importantly, such a change is in order for better coverage of the Generation II critters. I believe that I have been able to show that a fair number of those Pokémon can be distributed between the Johto Gym Leaders and Elite Four without making the teams repetitive or divergent from certain norms.

Which then means only Hoenn would need an update. And imagine a Johto-Kanto-Hoenn game. Massive! I think we need to see a Hoenn in real-time though. We have for Kanto, Johto and Sinnoh, so Hoenn's left out.

You're getting ahead of yourself - the only problem at the moment is Johto's absence from the GBA and DS versions. As far as Hoenn is concerned, it is only important that most of the Generation III Pokémon (all but the starters and legendaries) be regularly obtained within Generation IV. In Diamond, Pearl and Platinum, 12 Generation III Pokémon are exclusive to dual-slot mode, but there are also many others that are not convenient to obtain in the slightest. The Gold and Silver remakes could change that situation by means of the Kanto Safari Zone and the Sevii Islands routes. I also hold that it would be very apt if May, Brendan and Wally were incorporated in some form, which would serve to explain what they have been up to in the last three years.

Now, if the Gold and Silver remakes were to feature Kanto and Sevii Islands well (or even just Kanto in the worst case scenario), I highly doubt that Game Freak would go back to covering one region per a game in the next generation. That would allow us to revisit Hoenn without necessitating another pair of remakes, so that the actual region wouldn't be forgotten. But that is not a relevant issue in the context of the current generation.

 

[Mitchman]

Now then people if this thread seems to uh die or gain 5 pages and im no where to be seen after this post sorry.
http://ds.kombo.com/article.php?artid=7007
As you might have read the DSi is getting a VC. For GB AND GBA GAMES. You know what that means? No remakes most likely. And that just sucks no?

 

[Silktree]

Mitchman Is, you're quite fond of flipping sides, aren't you? It seems to me that you just go with the flow of news and always rush to conclusions no matter what.

Ignoring the fact that DSiWare Game Boy games are merely a rumor at this point, a re-release of Gold and Silver is grossly unlikely in light of the simple fact that it wouldn't support any form of connectivity. Virtual Console games are run through software emulation, which is to say that they are faithful to the original games. The original Gold and Silver games, run on the DSi, would not allow trading and battling due to the DSi's lack of compatibility with link cables (or the Mobile Adapter in Crystal's case). Practically all the Virtual Console renditions of N64 games have been faithful recreations of the original versions to the extent that features requiring peripheral hardware were scrapped altogether. Hence the lack of a Pokémon Stadium re-release, due the absence of the Transfer Pak.

The Game Freak games are among the select few Game Boy titles that implemented Link Cables features. It is precisely for that reason that they are the least likely to see the light of day on the Virtual Console, since connectivity is such a focal part of those games.

The Pokémon Company wouldn't bother using the upcoming movie to advertise 5$ versions of long-obsolete games, either. Furthermore, a re-release would neither explain Notched-ear Pichu's connection to the Pikachu-colored Pichu, nor would it be consistent with Junichi Masuda's statement about enhancing Pokémon gameplay through a new game slated to be announced soon.

 

[Shinx3000]

Mitchman Is, as Unown lord said, and I agree that even if the GB and GBA DSi thing does go ahead there are some things to look at:

1) Trading between games and battling as Unown Lord said.

2) R/B/G got remakes and they were an improvement over originals,even if the Sevii islands were just a marginal enhancement, it was a IMO, good addition a long with E4 pokemon changes after you beat them and get to go to Sevii Islands 4-7 (something like that).

3) Anyway, who says the remake is going to be restricted to DSi? Not everyone is going to want the DSi anyway, and for many pokemon fans, I can understand why.

Probably more to add on this, but I am a bit tired now and can't think straight.

And just wondering, when did Junichi Masuda say about the new game? I know he talked about Platinum, but I don't think it could be that, given its been released, granted not in Europe yet, but still. Also I feel its a little early for a Gen V game (maybe, maybe not) so you could be right on a remake, but I'll just wait and see before I cast my final judgement on that.

 

[Amewsment]

[...]a female player character was added. Granted, since the player characters are silent, this affects the gameplay more than it does the story[...]

I think it only affects the gameplay because to my mind it has no bearing on the story to my knowledge. So I do not believe that there is any correlation between the inclusion of a female character for the Kanto remakes and massive changes in the main storyline. To me it does not follow because changes/updates in gameplay exist within every generation. The only "proof" that to my mind does not really stick!

Secondly, the first three Sevii Islands and Celio were showcased prior to the first Elite Four challenge, so they were in fact incorporated into the original storyline.

Granted you only have access to Knot, Boon, and Kin Islands; but other than that your point is correct. This is good evidence that could be used to justify a change or addition to the main story line.

As for what would make it justifiable to have Bruno leave the Elite Four, I have a solid idea to which I alluded in previous posts: Bruno will join Lorelei and Agatha on Sevii Islands, and the three of them will be ones of the tag partners in the remakes. The basis for this suggestion is FireRed and LeafGreen's discovery that Lorelei's native home is Four Island, and the fact that she has already left the Elite Four once (temporarily) in order to avert a problem on the island.

I do believe that this works because Lorelei only left after the first challenge, but it is still previous to Johto. It also makes a whole lot of sense from a chronological point of view and it would work in the events that were added to Fire Red and Leaf Green. If there are changes to the Elite Four roster by having Bruno leave for some reason then this will be it.
Although as I have stated multiple time that I am not 100% convinced that Game Freak will make major changes to fix the E4 or the gym leader setup. However if they do then I could realistically envision them doing it this way. Definitely an exciting train of thought and a perspective worth entertaining. You have presented the idea well and made it attractive and realistic at the same time, kudos!

As you might have read the DSi is getting a VC. For GB AND GBA GAMES. You know what that means? No remakes most likely. And that just sucks no?

Pic related:

Spoiler

As UL pointed out correctly above there is no compatibility between the second generation and the third one or the ones following it.

 

[Silktree]

And just wondering, when did Junichi Masuda say about the new game? I know he talked about Platinum, but I don't think it could be that, given its been released, granted not in Europe yet, but still. Also I feel its a little early for a Gen V game (maybe, maybe not) so you could be right on a remake, but I'll just wait and see before I cast my final judgement on that.

IGN: The Pokemon series has stayed very similar throughout its lifespan. Are there plans to revamp the game and give it an overhaul?

Masuda: Yes, I understand that people talk about the strength and weakness of the series. And we always make our effort to increase the good things about Pokemon. There is something we want to improve and enhance all the time. There are lots of ideas out there and we want to make that idea realized to enhance the gameplay of Pokemon. There is some day soon that we can make an announcement about new stuff, so that's something you can look forward to.

IGN: Any chance you can tell us now?

Masuda: [laughs] Sorry, I can't.

 

[Shinx3000]

Thanks, but what that says could either point to a few things:

A game remake
A new game
The showing of a new concept for future games
Something else we don't know about

because we don't yet know what the "new stuff" actually is, but I can't wait to find out

 

[Silktree]

Notched-ear Pichu is going to debut in the next games - that much is obvious (98% likely if technicality is your thing). If you want to believe it symbolizes the Generation V entries, go right ahead.

 

[Shinx3000]

Notched-ear Pichu is going to debut in the next games - that much is obvious (98% likely if you want to get technical). If you want to believe it symbolizes the Generation V entries, go right ahead.

ever said anywhere I did or did not believe the next game would be a Gen V, nor did I say it would defiantly be a Gen II remake either., but the best thing to do is stop this as its getting nowhere, whatever is coming, I'm sure it will be good, pokemon has improved since the early days, and if some don't think so, it has gotten a lot better too in many ways.

 

[Silktree]

I think it only affects the gameplay because to my mind it has no bearing on the story to my knowledge. So I do not believe that there is any correlation between the inclusion of a female character for the Kanto remakes and massive changes in the main storyline.

The point I was making is that remakes aren't forbidden from having the same kind of additions or alterations usually associated with third games. Let's face it: Someone like Maxim would have staunchly protested against the idea of adding a new Gym Leader to Emerald if anyone had suggested that before the official announcement. It still happened.

Although as I have stated multiple time that I am not 100% convinced that Game Freak will make major changes to fix the E4 or the gym leader setup.

It isn't really about knowing with absolute certainty whether or not something will happen, but rather, it is about realizing a good idea that is also perfectly feasible. I am just trying to demonstrate the extent to which Game Freak can improve as well as expand the original games.

However if they do then I could realistically envision them doing it this way. Definitely an exciting train of thought and a perspective worth entertaining. You have presented the idea well and made it attractive and realistic at the same time, kudos!

Thanks so much.

 

[Amewsment]

Your welcome!

It isn't really about knowing with absolute certainty whether or not something will happen, but rather, it is about realizing a good idea that is also perfectly feasible.

The 100% was an error on my part and probably the choice of percentiles. Let me rephrase it: I still doubt major changes to the story (I do see the adaption and evolution that the games have undergone though), however if they do take place then I think they will follow this format to a degree.

I am just trying to demonstrate the extent to which Game Freak can improve as well as expand the original games.

You have done so eloquently and it is very believable because it is grounded on past developments. Good points and it offers an interpretation of the facts that I would not have necessarily thought of. Especially the connection between Lorelei going to fight the rockets and changes to possible remakes is incredibly well thought out.

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

The point I was making is that remakes aren't forbidden from having the same kind of additions or alterations usually associated with third games. Let's face it: Someone like Maxim would have staunchly protested against the idea of adding a new Gym Leader to Emerald if anyone had suggested that before the official announcement. It still happened.

Someone like me would not protest against that.

Someone like me was upset that there was no new Gym Leader in Platinum.

Someone like me actually likes Gym/E4 changes in third games.

 

[Silktree]

Someone like me was upset that there was no new Gym Leader in Platinum.

I hope that it's because you wanted a Dark-type Gym Leader, as it would have been fairly redundant otherwise.

Someone like me actually likes Gym/E4 changes in third games.

What makes you think that third games more eligible for revising the original story than remakes are? Playing FireRed and LeafGreen, were you disappointed to realize that you could go to Sevii Islands and meet Celio even before the Elite Four? Are you even aware that the term "remake" is fan-made?

FireRed and LeafGreen were officially referred to as a "re-exploration of Kanto where the original Pokémon from Red and Green can be found". Granted, they were faithful to the crust of the original games' plot and made it quite easy to identify which parts were kept the same and which ones were added, but then so did the third games. Much in the same way that Game Freak decided to change the last Gym Leader and Champion for Emerald, despite that not being part of a pattern, the Gold and Silver remakes are not obligated to follow FireRed and LeafGreen's formula to the letter, and may very well add a new Elite Four member as part of the overall alterations to the in-game trainers' teams. It should have been done in late 2000 when Crystal was released, but it is never too late.

 

[MyNameCornBread]

Alright, seems my question about gym leader/E4 teams was successful in causing interesting discussion, so I'd like to add more to it. If you believe there should be any changes in the teams of the Kanto gym leaders or Red, what are they? And if you believe there should be any new "boss" trainers(like Agatha, Lorelei, or Leaf as Unown Lord suggested), what should their teams be in your opinion? I'll be interested in what everyone thinks.

 

[Scizored]

I would like to see Leaf in game. She deserves to have her place in the Games "cannon" cemented. If they do include the Sevii Islands it is the obvious place to put her. I don't know what her team would conisist of but I've always imagined she picked Bulbasaur as her starter.

 

[Martonimos]

It's canon, not cannon. But you raise an interesting point. Red was the be-all end-all trainer, so Leaf could fill a similar role in the Sevii islands as you say. But I'd be more interested in her having a story-relevant role. You walk into Elm's lab, and there's a girl there who won't talk to you. Elm informs you that her name is Leaf, and she's trying to find her friend, Red, who vanished a while back, which starts you towards Mt. Silver.

She really does have a place in the canon already, just because she appeared in the games. Still, more involvement of Leaf (and Kris; I don't remember much of how she factored into Crystal) can't hurt.

 

[TTEchidna]

The male/female counterparts to whoever you played as didn't appear in Crystal or FRLG as they do in RSE and DPPt. Though if Sevii's there, that does provide a good place to put her... the only question is... since there was no Yellow this time around to base Red's team off of, will his team be different, and what will Leaf's team be?

 

[MyNameCornBread]

Yeah, as I mentioned above I'm wondering what everyone's ideas on Red, Green and Leaf's potential new teams are.

 

[War Raichu]

Red would probably have the same team he did in GSC. Pikachu would likely have a Light Ball, of course.

Green would probably have his pre- or post-National Dex team, or a combination of both.

Leaf would probably have her own unique team. Maybe with Hoenn or Sinnoh starters, just as a reference to the other regions.