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SwSh Here's how we could figure out how many Pokemon will not be in SwSh...

AngryBinacle said:
But we also know that the biggest amount of work goes into modelling; not into programming encounters.

So, they can easily tweak the amount of wild Pokémon. Just like the fact how the 3ds games had bigger regional dexes than older titles.

Especially if we consider that Pokémon outside of that aren't even transferrable this time.
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Haven't you kinda answered yourself here? The reason we're getting less is due to modelling, not programming. Modelling is reaching the point of being too time consuming.
 
Oriden said:
Haven't you kinda answered yourself here? The reason we're getting less is due to modelling, not programming. Modelling is reaching the point of being too time consuming.
Click to expand...
Not my point, my point was that we should/could still get around 600 'mons. That's not all 800+ of them, of course, but a big amount. As that's the amount they usually managed to get into the game for at least the last couple of gens.
 
PocketMonster said:
well that is a higher number than what I guessed, 300.
makes you wonder however, how many are actual NEW pokemon. (yes I am counting regional variants because they are in essence it's own pokemon)
Click to expand...

400 is at the lower end of my estimates, I figured we’d get between 350-500 Pokémon.

I’d imagine there will be about 70 or so Galar Pokémon and maybe 20-30 new regional variants.

Edit: If 400 Pokémon is actually the amount in the game, I will be sorely disappointed. I was hoping for 500 Pokémon...
 
It's already enough of a tragedy that Pokémon will slowly but surely have more Pokémon than the main games.
 
SpinyShell said:
400 is at the lower end of my estimates, I figured we’d get between 350-500 Pokémon.

I’d imagine there will be about 70 or so Galar Pokémon and maybe 20-30 new regional variants.

Edit: If 400 Pokémon is actually the amount in the game, I will be sorely disappointed. I was hoping for 500 Pokémon...
Click to expand...
Kinda funny you think that, since SM had 100 less than USUM in the regional dex
 
AngryBinacle said:
Work they put in during SM and XY, as well as BW, so why not now?
Click to expand...
Gen 5 actually reused a lot of sprites from Gen 4 and has been the only generation to not give us remakes ever since remakes started becoming a thing so... I imagine all the work that wasn't put into Gen 5 was put toward developing Gen 6, which allowed for that initial batch of 3D models. SM uses the same models and console as XY so porting them over wasn't an issue because nothing had to be fixed.

SwSh's resolution is larger and has better quality than the 3DS games, which means that the existing models all need to be reworked and retextured. And they didn't take a break at all during Gen 7.
 
Oriden said:
Gen 5 actually reused a lot of sprites from Gen 4 and has been the only generation to not give us remakes ever since remakes started becoming a thing so... I imagine all the work that wasn't put into Gen 5 was put toward developing Gen 6, which allowed for that initial batch of 3D models.
Click to expand...
There is no connection since Game Freak aren't the ones who work on Pokemon models/animations. Creatures are.
 
Oriden said:
Gen 5 actually reused a lot of sprites from Gen 4 and has been the only generation to not give us remakes ever since remakes started becoming a thing so... I imagine all the work that wasn't put into Gen 5 was put toward developing Gen 6, which allowed for that initial batch of 3D models. SM uses the same models and console as XY so porting them over wasn't an issue because nothing had to be fixed.

SwSh's resolution is larger and has better quality than the 3DS games, which means that the existing models all need to be reworked and retextured. And they didn't take a break at all during Gen 7.
Click to expand...
Gen 6 had to redo all of the models and gen V not having a remake might have sped it up as well. Sprite-work is also not as easy as it seems.

I still think there's precedence enough to say that Pokémon should be ablo to include around 600 monsters in a game; it shouldn't be too much to ask. I can excuse them for not having the whole dex, but anything less than 550 or so would be a shame.

You can't honestly argue that it's too much to ask. I'm all for being sceptical and the like, but we should be reasonable.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I explained my reasoning earlier in the discussion with Knight and I guess that we'll see how many are in the game come november. They might say how many 'mons are in beforehand, if we're lucky.

I just hope they don't bamboozle it.
 
AngryBinacle said:
Gen 6 had to redo all of the models and gen V not having a remake might have sped it up as well. Sprite-work is also not as easy as it seems.

I still think there's precedence enough to say that Pokémon should be ablo to include around 600 monsters in a game; it shouldn't be too much to ask. I can excuse them for not having the whole dex, but anything less than 550 or so would be a shame.

You can't honestly argue that it's too much to ask. I'm all for being sceptical and the like, but we should be reasonable.
Click to expand...
And do we have any idea how much time it takes to work on models...? Professionally. To their standards.

I don't think we honestly know enough about their development process to say what is and isn't reasonable.
 
Oriden said:
And do we have any idea how much time it takes to work on models...? Professionally. To their standards.

I don't think we honestly know enough about their development process to say what is and isn't reasonable.
Click to expand...
Well, we do know they don't have to do them all over from scratch.

If they managed with XY, they can manage now with some fewer mons.

And, I'm sorry, but the Dexit is one thing to swallow, but not even having half of them available is a whole other thing. Yes, we don't know the intricacies at work there, but they're not a small independent developer, either. It's not like their models have made a leap into the future and are overly complicated.
 
Knightwolf09 said:
Like heck it is. There've been plenty of other expensive games that exists that had less then 400 creatures.
Click to expand...
But did these expensive games cut out hundreds of monsters that they managed to include in cheaper games?
Knightwolf09 said:
Look at Digimon Cyber Slueth. 50 bucks and only had over 200 digimon when over 800 exists.
Click to expand...
Did the Digimon series ever have a precedent for keeping in all Pokemon and letting players transfer them in, though? And this example is still 10$ cheaper than SwSh.
Knightwolf09 said:
How many times do I have to say it? You. Don't. Buy. The. Game. For. The. Number. Of. Pokemon. In. It. You buy it to play a game! This isn't settling for less!
Click to expand...
And what do you use to play Pokemon games, if not the Pokemon?
Knightwolf09 said:
We've played pokemon games with 500 with the same mechanics and no megas or z-moves. Have we forgotten what things used to be like?
Click to expand...
And those games didn't cost 60 dollars. Have you forgotten what prices used to be like?
Knightwolf09 said:
Cause we don't need all 800 to enjoy a pokemon game! It's not that hard!
Click to expand...
It's not just about "Is this game fun"-it's "Is this really worth cutting out some Pokemon I enjoy, after seeing other cuts to features and having content locked behind a paywall?"

Oriden said:
Gen 5 actually reused a lot of sprites from Gen 4
Click to expand...
I saw a few reused, like Charizard, Entei, and Pidgeotto, but there were definitely at least hundreds more new ones. It's also worth mentioning that these reused sprites still got totally new animations, and got new backsprites.
124310
124311

Let's be generous and say that half the sprites in BW were reused from DP. That still leaves us with a workload of:
  • Animated 247 old sprites
  • Creating 246 new sprites and animating them
  • Creating 493 backsprites and animating them
  • And still creating 132 new front and back sprites and animating them
(Not accounting for alternate forms, which varied. Deoxys' forms got new sprites, while Castform's didn't-though its base did get a new pose.)
124309
124308

124304
124305

124306
124307



The models, on the other hand, already have their animations, and don't need backsprites, because they're made to be viewed in 3D. So the only thing that needs to be done is retexturing, which doesn't seem to be a massive change. It's a nice sprucing up, sure, but it doesn't look like it'd need a massive workload.

But let's say that, for whatever reason, retexturing does end up taking a lot of work-it takes a whole two days of work to retexture one Pokemon. (Once for regular coloring, once for shinies) Creatures has 110 employees as of the last count, in June 2017. Let's say that half of them are working on Detective Pikachu 2, and the other half are retexturing models for SwSh.
We have 809 base Pokemon, plus 27 more Unown forms, plus three Castform, Deoxys, Burmy, and Wormadam, plus one Cherrim, Shellos, and Gastrodon, plus five Rotom, plus one Giratina and Shaymin, plus seventeen Arceus, plus one Basculin and Darmanitan, plus four Deerling and Sawsbuck, plus one for each of the Forces of Nature, plus two Kyurem, plus one Keldeo and Meloetta, plus four Genesect, plus nineteen Vivillion, plus four for each member of the Flabebe line (and we'll even throw in AZ's, too), plus nine Furfrou, plus one Aegislash and Xerneas, plus two Zygarde, plus one Hoopa, plus three Oricorio, plus two Lycanroc, plus one Wishiwashi, plus seventeen Sylvally, plus seven Minior, plus three Necrozma, plus one Magearna, plus 48 Meaga
809+27+3+3+3+3+1+1+1+5+1+1+17+1+1+4+4+1+1+1+2+1+1+4+19+4+4+4+1+9+1+1+2+1+3+2+1+17+7+3+1+48
Comes out to 1024.
1024 models divided by 55 employees is about 19 models per employee. (It's technically 18.6, but we're rounding up) If everybody needed a full two days to rexture each model, that would mean 38 days of work for each employee.

That feels ridiculously low-maybe retexturing a model takes a whole week? Well, now that'd be 19 weeks per employee.

Heck, maybe it takes a full month to retexture a model! Now every employee has a workload of a little over a year and a half. And SwSh started full production a year after SuMo was done.

And remember, this is if Creatures had only half of their staff working on retextures.

Obviously, game design doesn't move this fast, and I'm sure there are other factors involved, like deciding on the aesthetics of the game first, approving finished products, etc., not to mention the new Pokemon that still need designs. But even if we allow for full months on what is essentially just adding polish to a finished product, working at half power, there's still plenty of time to get it done.

Oriden said:
And do we have any idea how much time it takes to work on models...? Professionally. To their standards.

I don't think we honestly know enough about their development process to say what is and isn't reasonable.
Click to expand...
There are a few things we can understand from what they've given us, though. We can look at the credits for past games and see that only Creatures was credited for the Pokemon models, so their workload wasn't affected by new code, story, etc. We can look at the development of XY (started in 2010) and see that creating 967 models from scratch (1024 minus 37 forms of Gen 7 Pokemon, minus 20 Megas from ORAS) was a task that got completed within XY's development time-even while they had other projects releasing at that time. (Guardian Signs in 2010, later in some countries, Pokedex 3D in 2011, featuring 3D models before XY's release, PokePark 2 in 2011, and Dream Radar in 2012) We can look at the development of LGPE and see that retexturing 151 Pokemon took, at most, two years.

Plus, some of the criticisms around the Dex cut aren't just about the progress, but the restraints set up. Maybe the workload truly is too much to get all the models done in time with the team they have, but why isn't the highest-grossing video game franchise hiring more people?
 

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TechSkylander1518 said:
But did these expensive games cut out hundreds of monsters that they managed to include in cheaper games?

Did the Digimon series ever have a precedent for keeping in all Pokemon and letting players transfer them in, though? And this example is still 10$ cheaper than SwSh.

And what do you use to play Pokemon games, if not the Pokemon?

And those games didn't cost 60 dollars. Have you forgotten what prices used to be like?

It's not just about "Is this game fun"-it's "Is this really worth cutting out some Pokemon I enjoy, after seeing other cuts to features and having content locked behind a paywall?"


I saw a few reused, like Charizard, Entei, and Pidgeotto, but there were definitely at least hundreds more new ones. It's also worth mentioning that these reused sprites still got totally new animations, and got new backsprites.
View attachment 124310View attachment 124311

Let's be generous and say that half the sprites in BW were reused from DP. That still leaves us with a workload of:
  • Animated 247 old sprites
  • Creating 246 new sprites and animating them
  • Creating 493 backsprites and animating them
  • And still creating 132 new front and back sprites and animating them
(Not accounting for alternate forms, which varied. Deoxys' forms got new sprites, while Castform's didn't-though its base did get a new pose.)
View attachment 124309View attachment 124308
View attachment 124304View attachment 124305
View attachment 124306View attachment 124307



The models, on the other hand, already have their animations, and don't need backsprites, because they're made to be viewed in 3D. So the only thing that needs to be done is retexturing, which doesn't seem to be a massive change. It's a nice sprucing up, sure, but it doesn't look like it'd need a massive workload.

But let's say that, for whatever reason, retexturing does end up taking a lot of work-it takes a whole two days of work to retexture one Pokemon. (Once for regular coloring, once for shinies) Creatures has 110 employees as of the last count, in June 2017. Let's say that half of them are working on Detective Pikachu 2, and the other half are retexturing models for SwSh.
We have 809 base Pokemon, plus 27 more Unown forms, plus three Castform, Deoxys, Burmy, and Wormadam, plus one Cherrim, Shellos, and Gastrodon, plus five Rotom, plus one Giratina and Shaymin, plus seventeen Arceus, plus one Basculin and Darmanitan, plus four Deerling and Sawsbuck, plus one for each of the Forces of Nature, plus two Kyurem, plus one Keldeo and Meloetta, plus four Genesect, plus nineteen Vivillion, plus four for each member of the Flabebe line (and we'll even throw in AZ's, too), plus nine Furfrou, plus one Aegislash and Xerneas, plus two Zygarde, plus one Hoopa, plus three Oricorio, plus two Lycanroc, plus one Wishiwashi, plus seventeen Sylvally, plus seven Minior, plus three Necrozma, plus one Magearna, plus 48 Meaga
809+27+3+3+3+3+1+1+1+5+1+1+17+1+1+4+4+1+1+1+2+1+1+4+19+4+4+4+1+9+1+1+2+1+3+2+1+17+7+3+1+48
Comes out to 1024.
1024 models divided by 55 employees is about 19 models per employee. (It's technically 18.6, but we're rounding up) If everybody needed a full two days to rexture each model, that would mean 38 days of work for each employee.

That feels ridiculously low-maybe retexturing a model takes a whole week? Well, now that'd be 19 weeks per employee.

Heck, maybe it takes a full month to retexture a model! Now every employee has a workload of a little over a year and a half. And SwSh started full production a year after SuMo was done.

And remember, this is if Creatures had only half of their staff working on retextures.

Obviously, game design doesn't move this fast, and I'm sure there are other factors involved, like deciding on the aesthetics of the game first, approving finished products, etc., not to mention the new Pokemon that still need designs. But even if we allow for full months on what is essentially just adding polish to a finished product, working at half power, there's still plenty of time to get it done.


There are a few things we can understand from what they've given us, though. We can look at the credits for past games and see that only Creatures was credited for the Pokemon models, so their workload wasn't affected by new code, story, etc. We can look at the development of XY (started in 2010) and see that creating 967 models from scratch (1024 minus 37 forms of Gen 7 Pokemon, minus 20 Megas from ORAS) was a task that got completed within XY's development time-even while they had other projects releasing at that time. (Guardian Signs in 2010, later in some countries, Pokedex 3D in 2011, featuring 3D models before XY's release, PokePark 2 in 2011, and Dream Radar in 2012)

Plus, some of the criticisms around the Dex cut aren't just about the progress, but the restraints set up. Maybe the workload truly is too much to get all the models done in time with the team they have, but why isn't the highest-grossing video game franchise hiring more people?
Click to expand...
Tech we literally brought it to an end, there was no need to continue it.
 
Knightwolf09 said:
Not when you direct your responses at me.
Click to expand...
You still don't have to respond. If you want the topic to end, you can just ignore it and let other people talk if they want to you. You don't have to be drawn back in to something you don't want to just because your post was quoted.
 
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Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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