How bad was the Johto team really?

[MistyBrockAsh]

No, treecko/grovyle had the same amount of gym wins during Hoenn...actually it had a couple more than cyndaquil did. If you count Battle Frontier battles, then corphish does too. Also, Buizel had 1 win at both the 3rd and 5th gym, and then beat 2(or was it 3) of Crasher's pokemon which gives him 1 more(or a tie) to cyndaquil.

Yes, they were good...but not great. None of them ever had Charizard vs Magmar or Charizard vs Blaziken, or Charizard vs. Dragonair, or Charizard vs. Articuno. There was never a match like the one squirtle had against that starmie in which it learned hydro pump. There was never a match like Grovyle vs. Slaking or Buizel vs Lucario. They never had the hilariously awesome Muk vs. Bellsprout or Kingler's sweep in Ash's first League match. Granted they've all had some great matches...but none of them compare to any of the one's I mentioned...and there are plenty more I can mention as well.

noctowl almost single handely sweeping mortys pokemon
bayleef sweeping poliwrath and macoke at the fith gym

yes there has been stuff like that happening

no cyndiquil has more gym wins then buizel
1 the second gyms syther
2 the third gyms nidorina/ even though ash lost the match they still count as gym wins
3 the third gyms clefarie/ even though ash lost the match they still count as gym wins
4 the fourth gyms ghastly
5 the 6th gyms steelix
6 the 7th gyms win against dewgong

buizlehas 2 wins at the pastoria gym and 1 win against lucario so far he will prbably be up there with cyndi but no there yet

grovile and sceptile might i would believe that but he was used for 2 confrences i dont believe corpish has 6 gym wins unless you can specify them for me

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

I wouldn't say that. Bulba/Squirtle/Charizard may have continued into the very beginning of Johto, but they certainly weren't part of his Johto roster. Bulbasaur and Squirtle weren't even used in any Johto Gyms, although Charizard and Snorlax were. I see that as Ash using his reserves, after all Kingler came back for the Whirl Cup, Tauros was used in a Tauros competition, and Muk was used in the league. It was just before the writers did their "fresh start" stuff, so the Kanto roster got to last a little longer into the next gen.

I would say Phanpy was part of Ash's Johto team because it was, but Donphan wasn't obviously because he didn't get it until Battle Frontier.

Likewise the other problem is Ash had Bulbasaur and Chikorita/Bayleef on his team for the same time for a good chunk of Johto. Seeing two grass types with similar movesets on the same team was ridiculous.

Ash's Johto team after the Oak'd Pokes were:

Bayleef, Cynda, Totodile, Noctowl and Phanpy.

This is what Johto was heading towards it just got delayed with the Kanto trio and Heracross in the beginning. This team certainly wasn't that well developed, Phanpy didn't become powerful until Battle Frontier. Noctowl and Totodile were only in 1 Gym each. Bayleef only had one Gym victory against Chuck. Cyndaquil had a lot of Gym wins, but compared to Charizard, Chimchar and even Torkoal, they all seemed a lot more impressive.

bayleef beat sninerak and beat two of chucks pokemon

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

Maybe I should have clarified. Use proof that has not been mentioned. We are all acknoweledgeing the good things his johto team did. The things is, I can name plenty more things that his other teams did that made them better.

If you want examples you can aks...but you'll find plenty through this thread. The things is, we are not saying they suck, we are just saying that compared to his other teams, they aren't as good.

I mean, you mentioned how totodile beat a charizard. Glalie did the same thing, but it had a type advantage...far more impressive. You mentioned bayleefs win against machoke and houndoom. Well what about treecko's win against Hariyama and then one of Flannery's pokemon...both a fighting and fire type like bayleef had to deal with but it was not evolved which makes it that much better. You also mentioned cyndaquil...well chimchar beat Paul's Ursaring and then beat 2 of the ghost pokemon in Ash's 5th gym battle. Considering how much training it has had compared to cyndaquil under Ash, it has faired just as well if not better.

The fact is, anything you mention about any of his johto team members, I can come back and mention something done by one of his other pokemon from his other team that was even more impressive.

cynaquil is more impressive than chimchar no matter what his accomplishments are so much mror than chimchars and so what about treekos thinks bayleef has done other thing, even though sceptile was longer in the amnie and better


they johto poke were good and i think they will return eventually

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

Feraligatr and Typloshion were very popular (and still are.) No one (especially at the time of the anime/games) said, "Megnanium is my favorite Pokemon!"



Noctowl was okay addition, but Noctowl himself seemed emotionless. Don't really know much of him there, so...

O!

th reason for so many fillers was because the needed to debut different new pokemon and they didnt know how to do that effectivly.

noctowl did have a personaity, Brains and cunningnesss

i disagree they are alot of people that liked meganium and that evolution line, the only thing im mad about is we didnt see a typhlosion untill the fourth gym in hoeen. the writers did a great job showing meganium a decent job with fleraligator but an awful job with typhlosion

 

[Nomura]

noctowl almost single handely sweeping mortys pokemon
bayleef sweeping poliwrath and macoke at the fith gym

yes there has been stuff like that happening

no cyndiquil has more gym wins then buizel
1 the second gyms syther
2 the third gyms nidorina/ even though ash lost the match they still count as gym wins
3 the third gyms clefarie/ even though ash lost the match they still count as gym wins
4 the fourth gyms ghastly
5 the 6th gyms steelix
6 the 7th gyms win against dewgong

buizlehas 2 wins at the pastoria gym and 1 win against lucario so far he will prbably be up there with cyndi but no there yet

grovile and sceptile might i would believe that but he was used for 2 confrences i dont believe corpish has 6 gym wins unless you can specify them for me

Buizel has had 4 gym wins so far...he won one battle against Fantina. 2 more and he's there...and there are 3 gyms to go.

Like I said, if you count the battle frontier then corphish has the amount needed.

1.) Beat Machop in 2nd gym.
2.) Beat either 1 or 2 at Flannery...but I'm only going to count 1 since I can't remember.
3.) From the final gym battle.

The other come from Battle Frontier. Like I said..that's only if you count those.

Also, treecko/grovyle had theirs before the league...so about the same time as it took cyndaquil.

1.) Beat Machop in the first Dewford gym battle
2.) Beat Hariyama in rematch
3.) Believe he had a win at Flannery's
4.) Beat Slaking at 5th gym
5.) Had a win during 6th gym
6.) Had a win during 8th gym.

Also, the thing you mentioned about Bayleef and Noctowl, though true, have already been mentioned. Like I said though, it's not about how many wins, it's about attack and how good the battle was. For instance, chimchar used the spinning move to avoid confusion during the battle against Fantina. Then he went on to defeat 2 of her pokemon...one in which neither pikachu or Buizel could defeat...his 2 strongest pokemon at the moment. Cyndaquil never did anything like that. Point is, johto team was GOOD but they were not GREAT like his other teams were...and like his DP team has been. In fact...I'll be so bold to say his DP and Johto team are equal...but by the end of DP his DP team will far surpass his johto team and make them the weakest team yet again.

 

[Cybersai]

i disagree they are alot of people that liked meganium and that evolution line, the only thing im mad about is we didnt see a typhlosion untill the fourth gym in hoeen. the writers did a great job showing meganium a decent job with fleraligator but an awful job with typhlosion

The evolutions of the Johto starters were by far screwed over. Feraligatr and Typlosion only had a few appearances, as did Quilava and Croconaw.

I noticed that when Johto was airing for the first time, it was pretty sad how they never showed them.

 

[emanuellburnell]

The johto starters evolutions were never screwed over to begin with plus the johto team were just as good like the rest of ash's other teams they still battle great.

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

i agre with emanuellburnell with the fact that the johto team was as good as any other of ash's teams, but typhlosion did get screwed over, crocanaw and quilava and feraligator all had a debut episode but that was about it, and of course the chicorita evolution like was like an over dose, lol. so many maganiums, bayleefs, and chicoritas i can not count lol

 

[Nomura]

Why were they just as good though? Give us something new so you can change our minds. Most of us can bent a little, you just have to come up with an argument that you have not already used, and has not already been countered. I mean....I can say the sky is filled with unicorns....but if you look up...do you see any? No, and it's the same thing with his johto team. Just because you say it's as good as all of his other teams...doesn't mean it's right. Not to say I am...but according to most of the people who have posted not only in this thread but on the forum(from what I've seen since I've been here) I am right. So, give some real evidence...something you have yet to bring up....something that a member or myself have yet to dispute.

 

[emanuellburnell]

I did give you some real evidence before and that should be good enough for you.well that's all i can think of right now i'm done.

 

[totodiles choreographer]

From now until the very last episode of pokemon airs i'm holding my breath for Totodile to fulfill its destiny and become a Feraligatr. Why? Just for the trio! Charizard, Feraligatr, Sceptile they'd look great together! I really do think its not just the lack of evos that left the team crippled no time in that neverending stream of fillers was any time put into giving them new moves and i dont just mean the none noted ones i mean proper new move eps, it was so poor it was even commented on during the ditto fight when totodile couldnt use hydropump. Lets see Cyndaquil learnt to use firemoves *clap, clap, clap* impressive for a fire type! and Noctowl learnt confusion....am i missing any? So yeah i've said this before but i want them to return with some new stuff. Totodile with ice fang and superpower, Cyndaquil with something like eruption, Noctowl with zen headbutt and shadowball and Bayleef with...actually Bayleef evolved, it'll do. Just something to make them stand out enough to actually have an excuse to return!

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

Why were they just as good though? Give us something new so you can change our minds. Most of us can bent a little, you just have to come up with an argument that you have not already used, and has not already been countered. I mean....I can say the sky is filled with unicorns....but if you look up...do you see any? No, and it's the same thing with his johto team. Just because you say it's as good as all of his other teams...doesn't mean it's right. Not to say I am...but according to most of the people who have posted not only in this thread but on the forum(from what I've seen since I've been here) I am right. So, give some real evidence...something you have yet to bring up....something that a member or myself have yet to dispute.

your a freaking idiot i have already given evidence a million times check the threads and other posts

 

[Nomura]

your a freaking idiot i have already given evidence a million times check the threads and other posts

No, I said give me something new that you have not said before. I and others have disputed most of what you have said. I've given an example for each example that you have given as to why his other teams are better. You have done nothing but repeat yourself time and again, showing that you have limited evidence. Like I said, give me some NEW evidence that I hane NOT countered with my own example. Give me something that proves that his johto team is, without a doubt, just as good as the rest.

BTW, idiot? How old are you, 3? I mean, was that supposed to hurt my feelings, or is it just your inability to make a rational argument and completely change my mind?

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

No, I said give me something new that you have not said before. I and others have disputed most of what you have said. I've given an example for each example that you have given as to why his other teams are better. You have done nothing but repeat yourself time and again, showing that you have limited evidence. Like I said, give me some NEW evidence that I hane NOT countered with my own example. Give me something that proves that his johto team is, without a doubt, just as good as the rest.

BTW, idiot? How old are you, 3? I mean, was that supposed to hurt my feelings, or is it just your inability to make a rational argument and completely change my mind?

Woooooww you are such an idiot i have not repeated my self i have just stated the evidence, im not aying johto was the best all i ws saying is that they desirve respect and that they are good pokemon, JOhto was badly writen and ash didnt showcase his pokemon but that doesnt mean that the johto pokemon didnt shine, they were good in there own ways

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

BTW, idiot? How old are you, 3? I mean, was that supposed to hurt my feelings, or is it just your inability to make a rational argument and completely change my mind?

i could care less about changing your mind i have stated the facts and if that is not enough then leave

instead of complaining about my facts why dont you give me some facts to why they suck

 

[Nomura]

i could care less about changing your mind i have stated the facts and if that is not enough then leave

instead of complaining about my facts why dont you give me some facts to why they suck

That fact is, I never said they sucked. I've just stated multiple times that they are not as good as his other teams. I've given plenty of reasons as to why his other teams, and other pokemon are better.

Also, to your statement before this one, I never said that you said they were the best. I was just merely pointing out that when you said they were just as good....well...that they weren't just as good. Compared to his other teams, they are a good team, but his Kanto and Hoenn team were great, and his Sinnoh team is turning out to be the same.

How about you actually read what I write instead of shooting off. You're the only one who's being an idiot.

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

That fact is, I never said they sucked. I've just stated multiple times that they are not as good as his other teams. I've given plenty of reasons as to why his other teams, and other pokemon are better.

Also, to your statement before this one, I never said that you said they were the best. I was just merely pointing out that when you said they were just as good....well...that they weren't just as good. Compared to his other teams, they are a good team, but his Kanto and Hoenn team were great, and his Sinnoh team is turning out to be the same.

How about you actually read what I write instead of shooting off. You're the only one who's being an idiot.

how is that being an idiot i just said they werent the best but the deserve credit, they had great accomplishment, the only reason you say the others are better is because they got more screen time

the kanto team had kanto and orange islands, now they return every so often to battle

the johto team only had johto and the silver conference was used to showcase charizard, and the charizard vs blastoise and charizard vs blazican matchup

hoeen team had hoeen and battle frontier

the sinnoh team is active and new and every body wonders about them they arent done yet or in a long time

there how is that proof

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

also the reason the johto team wasnt showcased in johto league is because people wanted to see charizard vs blastios also they writers were being overly careful because if they moved johto to fast and careless and just left the kanto poke behing then pokemon might have shut down, they did a fine job incorporating his kanto poke into johto not to mention old friends, that is why i like that series

 

[Nomura]

how is that being an idiot i just said they werent the best but the deserve credit, they had great accomplishment, the only reason you say the others are better is because they got more screen time

the kanto team had kanto and orange islands, now they return every so often to battle

the johto team only had johto and the silver conference was used to showcase charizard, and the charizard vs blastoise and charizard vs blazican matchup

hoeen team had hoeen and battle frontier

the sinnoh team is active and new and every body wonders about them they arent done yet or in a long time

there how is that proof

I never even mentioned about screen time. I mainly talked about how they all had better battles in each of their respective regions. For instance, I mentioned Charizard vs Magmar. Then again, that was one for the ages, very few could top that(IMO).

To be honest, I don't care about screentime. I care about what was done with the teams, how they were treated, and their accomplishment. Granted, the accomplishments of the other regions were most likely better due to how long they were around, but that's still no reason for the Johto team to have not been as grand.

Also, the idiot comment was in reference on how you consistently make comments about things I've either acknoweledged already...or you basically inferring things I never actually stated(wrote).

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

I never even mentioned about screen time. I mainly talked about how they all had better battles in each of their respective regions. For instance, I mentioned Charizard vs Magmar. Then again, that was one for the ages, very few could top that(IMO).

To be honest, I don't care about screentime. I care about what was done with the teams, how they were treated, and their accomplishment. Granted, the accomplishments of the other regions were most likely better due to how long they were around, but that's still no reason for the Johto team to have not been as grand.

Also, the idiot comment was in reference on how you consistently make comments about things I've either acknoweledged already...or you basically inferring things I never actually stated(wrote).

i honestly dont care, why do you need to reference to stuff i never said

1 i never said that you were complaining about screen time
2 i never said i was just referring to you i am talking in general just because im not adressing one of your comments doesn't mean that i am an idiot im talking in general

so you can stop say stuff like" i never said that" or " stop repeating your self" because it is not a good argument

and screen time directly influences the success, for the limited screen time the johto team did have success, i mean for being over shadowed by the kanto team that the writers didnt want the fans to forget