i miss the good ol' days of foruming

[JollyYoshi]

In all honesty for game guides, I don’t really go to discord but to other Pokémon Websites like Serebii if the locations are more updated or just like IGN when I want to have a guide.

I wasn’t really on the internet when foruming was really “the thing”. I hope that foruming doesn’t fully die. It’s nice to be able to interact with people instead of being in an entire ocean like YouTube or Twitter.

I remember hearing in a VlogBrothers Video that they like have a smaller audience because that means better connection with the audience. The less people on forums, the more the truly passionate people will connect.

I think the way some forums will die is when a bunch of important people leave at once without really replacements. (A bunch might be 3 to 5)

Let’s just hope this fun that’s still here continues on through the years

 

[Blanc]

This isn't "herpderp me old, young people evil, the Greeks/Romans/Victorians complained too, old man yells at cloud", it's that the internet itself has morphed around being advertiser-friendly rather than human-friendly.

I couldn’t have put it more eloquently myself, fantastically put.

There’s a lot of thoughts I want to weigh in on having here that extends from my own relationship with the internet to foruming as well, but it mostly echoes on what Baku and Umbreon have said.

The internet has become a mass that moves faster and faster, and we’ve evolved passed the phase where the internet was user-focused, as put by Umbreon’s quote above. Everything is commercialized now, and it’s pretty tragic.

I also hope foruming doesn’t ever fully die, as it is a perfect example of the archival of internet history. Yoshi describing sites like Twitter as ‘an ocean’ is hauntingly correct. These sites are vast, and less contained in feeling, and very anti-archival— especially twitter. When things get deleted on twitter, they are very much gone, and usually are not archived in any fashion because there is just far too much on the site to cover. If I could have internet chatting remain thriving in forums, I would, I prefer it. It’s far more peaceful and thoughtfully engaging.

However, as an artist on the internet I can’t deny that social media is a very necessary evil for me, and those equally in my position.

Being an artist is a social job, something that requires engagement in a space that engagement can send your work far from your grasp. The more clicks and recognition, the more possible clients. Fast paced social media sites do this job nicely, and it’s a good portion of the reason most artists of my era moved from dA to twitter. Don’t get me wrong, I really, really hate the current climate of social media, but in my industry, I can’t just walk away from it unfortunately, neither can any small artist creating a platform.

And as mentioned earlier in this thread, I’ve always loved the anonymity that comes with forum culture. On bigger social media spaces, it becomes rather expected for creatives to curate their “image”, like we mentioned about social media trying to seem attractive to conglomerates by erasing bad words and the like, creatives have to do the same on a smaller scale— making our personalities and identities appealing to our audiences. It’s not as if we are “putting on a mask” rather, we are expected to show the best side of ourselves all the time on such sites. The anonymity of forums removes this expectation. These are closed spaces where I can be Blanc, versus, Blanc on her days when she’s most normal LOL. I know my art I post here still has my signature attached, but there’s no weird stigmas or expectations. It’s very nice.

Sorry this turned into a bit of a tangent, I just find topics like this so interesting. The internet is vast, and we all existed in different pockets, but forums appeal to us in so many different ways, it is a shame that they are losing out to fast paced culture— these kind of sites are fantastic for documenting such long winded parts of our lives.

And social media culture just makes me unable to stop thinking about that one Metal Gear Solid 2 Codec, that is quite true of our current situation.

 

[RexMissingno]

If anyone wants I will go ahead and share a link to YesterWeb. They're a community focused on bringing back the aspects of the internet that I saw people talking about and I thought it might be of interest to some. They also have an active forum and actually recently closed their Discord server in favor of a forum.

I prefer forums for communication in every way. I'm an awkward person so the fast-paced format of Discord or chat rooms in general doesn't always work for me, I like to think longer about what I'm saying and read everything in a conversation first. I grew up online with forums and despite being maybe 9 in 2010 when I started to use them it was very positive and I never really stopped using forums even as my understanding of myself and the internet changed. I did start using Discord but to me the only upside is talking to friends. Forums also have archivability and we're already seeing things only hosted on Discord becoming lost and completely unable to be viewed.

Social media to me doesn't feel social - just posting into the void. It also feels more like it's meant to prey on people in a way, and you want to get shares or likes for that dopamine rush or whatever the right word is. There's a constant feed of content to keep you engaged. For me that's why I need to try to actively avoid social media, I have ADHD where I can be very vulnerable to this format and almost every person with ADHD I know has at some point been addicted to a website like Twitter or TikTok. To compare to forums, I'm less likely to get sucked in when I can just check all of the new posts over the past few days, spend 10+ minutes writing a response, and then it's easier for me to come in for an hour then leave to do something else.

Another thing that might be worth mentioning is how prevelant "cringe culture" is with how the internet is treated. I know the concept has been around for longer but it wasn't as publicized nor back then was it to the point that you had communities with sometimes over 10,000 people and I think for people who are in my generation or younger many of us who are in fandom have been posted to those groups at some point, and that's a big confidence killer. Where this comes in is something I've noticed is this seems to be impacting how people view forums where there are a lot less roleplay and fanfiction. I'm very thankful Bulbagarden still has these but in most forums it can seem taboo or like people are too scared to post things. There's this expectation that need to post things of high quality.

Which brings me for the other reason that people might not be posting bad art or fanfiction as much: how corporate everything is. There's an expectation you need to do things for views or clout and there isn't a sense of just posting things for fun anymore. I constantly get this brought up as someone who's interested in web development, art, and writing is people will ask or suggest ways I can make money off of it or be more efficient with how I post, and while I might build a website for someone for money sure my personal websites that I make for fun are just that - for fun. Everything is just focused on making money and getting attention and it's exhausting.

 

[InfiniteBakuphoon]

@Blanc
I’d like to take time to respond again not just because it made me smile to wake up this morning to what you wrote here, haha, but also because as an artist myself, I can kinda-sorta relate to this. You see, despite the rather negative appraisal I gave to the more mainstream-visible sides of social media like Twitter and Reddit and such, I have a somewhat complicated relationship with some of the more artistically-inclined sites that kind of graze the social media bubble without fully submerging themselves in it, like FF.net, AO3, Tumblr, and the like. Or even, really, just fanfiction communities in general, wherever they happen to be. Because I’ve found that while, of course, snobbery and tribalism and toxicity and all of those things are always there to some degree — because again, we’re all human, wherever we are — they’ve begun to take on a very… shall we say modern social media flavor, I think, in just how those obviously very undesirable things present themselves. Especially given that said communities are starting to skew younger and younger by the day, often from generations who have literally never known a world where social media — and all that comes with it — never existed. And who, you know, have yet to grow up, if you know what I mean (not that age equals maturity with some of the older generations, sadly). And while a part of me thinks, “well, I’m an adult, so I’ll carry myself like one and it’ll be all good; who cares about what immature people on the internet do?”, there’s another part of me that finds it all kind of scary, really, and makes me often think that perhaps the only winning move is not to play…

Remember that site that I mentioned once had a bustling fanfic section and how all that activity caused trouble because it was just so much? Well, a certain other site that I won’t name but that you can probably guess is like that, only times ten. It’s almost completely unmoderated, filled with all kinds of low-quality and rule-breaking stuff, and whatever reviews you get are often either one-sentence posts that say nothing or pleas to post the next chapter already. The tools are antiquated and buggy and allow you almost no control over who’s able to review your stuff, namely the guest reviews that are most likely to contain the most spammy and/or least-quality stuff that just clogs up your inbox with no way to deal with it. Unpleasant, huh? That said, the site has, by far, one of the largest audiences for the Pokémon fanfiction out there, and for many other fandoms, too. And if you’re lucky, your fic might end up getting a decent audience (and if you’re even luckier, some of those reviews might actually be good ones).

But then I face the main question that I ask myself time and time again when it comes to that: is it really even worth it to have such a large audience, and to deal with everything that comes with that, on that site especially? Sometimes I wonder if the answer is “no”. I have some of my fics on said site as of this time of writing, but I’ve seriously been considering just saying “screw it” and either leaving them un-updated for eternity or even taking them down entirely. Other sites might not give me as large of an audience — Bulbagarden included — but they provide me the modern tools that I need to make my life on the internet significantly easier, or are otherwise so small that I rarely have to deal with any unpleasantries at all. It’s just like I concluded before: smaller is better. That temptation for more sure doesn’t just go away so easily, though. But perhaps, at the end of the day, that’s part of what got us here in the first place, when it comes to the worst parts of social media?

Perhaps this quote from our thread-starter (thank you, @colours, for this wonderful conversation that you’ve helped facilitate here!) provides the best context for a lot of what my mind seems to keep trying to tell me lately:

not to show my age, but i come from an era of the internet where there was practically a small forum everywhere you go, because making free forums was fairly easy and straightforward and every single one of the friends i knew had forums of their own. we wanted to be The Next Big Thing, so to speak. if bulbagarden can be as big as it was, why can't we? it's interesting thinking about it; what with those very same people linking their forums in their signature in other places in the hopes of getting some eyes and people signing up. those were rather simple days, but in the pursuit of growth and expansion, we were blind to what we already had.

Words to really consider and live by in all parts of life, I think.

 

[colours]

i'm quite interested in knowing if there are any other forums like the one that @RexMissingno linked that are still up/moderately active like yesterweb. i was browsing around it (still am, tbh) and quite like the layout and how retro it is. definitely wouldn't mind knowing if there are some other small communities out there.

 

[DamiansChoppedWilly]

I miss when this forum was actually for miscellaneous discussions rather than just throwaway polls like "what was the last thing you ____"...

 

[Proxima Centauri B]

I definately miss it a lot,hence me stopping in here. There were seriously some great conversations back in the day,super fun and sometimes chaotic lol. The only reason I dont tend to stop in here more is I dont have time.

That said,as someone heavily into Twitter,it can be good. Its not really "impossible" to have convos there,but theres a risk of someone just jumping in and yelling,however,that said,that risk also exists in forums like this,its simply less common. I remember some heavy debate topics here back in my day and people doing stuff. Twitter IS a public forum of sorts,its just quite a bit different than one of this type. Id also like to point out on Twitter I have talked to a lot of fairly nice people and even became close with some. Not everyone there is some maniac or troll. A lot are just regular people posting about stuff they like.

 

[Aozora]

I totally miss the days of forums being a relevant part of the internet too. Actually, that's probably the main reason I signed up for this one. I'm not super into Pokémon anymore really (although it will always have a fond place in my heart), but always liked having a somewhat active forum to be a part of. I guess it might seem kind of weird because I was never the type to be really active on them, but I always liked reading them.

Things like reddit are too anonymous, and I don't like how it tries to just be 'everything' on the internet thrown together. It feels like any community that develops around a topic on that website is just reddit. The layout of that website also feels to me like they used internet forums as a model, and tried to make it as annoying to navigate as possible, lol.

Things like twitter and facebook cross a line between real life and internet life that I'd rather not cross. I like having those separate while being able to maintain some sort of unique identity within a community, if that makes sense.

Discord is alright, but it doesn't really do anything that IRC or teamspeak couldn't do. When it becomes a replacement for forums though, it becomes impossible to keep up with unless you spend your entire day looking at it, or the community you're a part of isn't very active.

And I also agree with sentiments about the internet being monetized to the point where it's becoming annoying to try to find anything that everyone hasn't already seen before. Like if youtube had an option to apply their search/presentation algorithms from ~2010 or earlier, that website would be so much better.

 

[JollyYoshi]

@Aozora’s statement made me realize that Bulbaforums isn’t really talked about anywhere except for here. In non-Bulbapedia videos, I’ve never heard anybody tell a story they heard from Bulbaforums or any other Pokémon forum. They mainly tell stories from things like Reddit.

 

[colours]

I miss when this forum was actually for miscellaneous discussions rather than just throwaway polls like "what was the last thing you ____"...

i wanted to address this post in case others had similar thoughts, and this sounds really cliche but it's true: be the change you want to see here.

this section isn't just for the polls that you see populated around - it's for actual discussion as well - so anyone is more than welcome to create interesting threads if they'd like, and i'd actually personally encourage such a thing! the more invigorating and interesting discussion around, the better, imo.

 

[Insanish Danish]

Those kinds of threads are nothing new, either. They've been here for ages - at least as long as I've been here, and almost certainly longer than that.

 

[DamiansChoppedWilly]

I feel like part of the reason is that anything that could qualify as a "discussion" has been sectioned off somewhere else. Support and Advice, for instance. We also used to have a debate forum, to what happened to it? Did the forums suddenly change their policy to "lean left or GTFO"? Seems that way from the patheticness I've witnessed.

 

[colours]

I feel like part of the reason is that anything that could qualify as a "discussion" has been sectioned off somewhere else. Support and Advice, for instance. We also used to have a debate forum, to what happened to it? Did the forums suddenly change their policy to "lean left or GTFO"? Seems that way from the patheticness I've witnessed.

this post is not only rather misguided but incorrect, but in the spirit of tackling the point at hand i'll address it anyway:

- support & advice has basically nothing to do with... anything? it's a support forum for those who want to discuss more sensitive matters, as opposed to the more laid-back discussion that has always been permitted in this section. perhaps at one point in time (not that i was aware of) it was a part of otb years ago, but i don't think it's wise to mix laid-back discussion with more sensitive issues like mental health that tends to be posted over there. besides this, the inclusion of s&a as part of your point is rather confusing tbh

- it seems your issue is with political discussion rather than the nature of debate itself, so to address that point: we gave political discussion a genuine chance, despite several warnings being issued (and hardly any of them being followed), and after people kept reporting each other for bad faith arguing, we figure it best for everyone involved if political discussion were to cease for the time being.

if you have any further concerns/questions, you're more than welcome to reach out to me or any other super mod/admin on the matter, but i'm going to kindly ask that this thread is not derailed too much and to be kept on track regarding forums in general, thank you.

 

[DamiansChoppedWilly]

Excuse me? Who is "derailing"? My comment was 100% about foruming and on topic, I'm sorry it happened to be about a thing you don't like.

perhaps it was a part of otb years ago, but i don't think it's wise to mix laid-back discussion with more sensitive issues like mental health that tends to be posted over there.

Well I don't read SA enough to know the nature of the level of sensitivity as to what goes on there, but there definitely was a time where OTB/Misc had the occasional advice threads of someone dealing with an interpersonal conflict and how to resolve it, or just wanting to share it in general. From time to time there was some things on the level of relationship advice - and it worked just fine, I don't really see why you're afraid of "mixing" them. I mean, if they're still allowed in OTB while SA is the option to opt out of it, that's another matter.

But another thing that was posted a lot was news and current events, but oh wait, there's a separate forum for that. But yeah back in the day it pretty much was everything non Pokemon/gaming/anime related meshed into one forum. And it was awesome.

 

[Zexy]

For a while now I was nostalgizing about this exact thing. I was deep into forums since 2012 up until 2017. Mostly Bulba but a few others too. I stopped because of a lack of free time as I overfocused in our local GO community at the time (when raids launched) which mostly used Discord and even Facebook Messenger group chats.

This kept going up until COVID lockdown 2, the long one, November 2020 to be exact. Remote raids alongside applications that made it too quick and convenient with minimal social interaction were commonplace, our community was gone. I was suddenly left with lots of free time and little social circle stuck at home.

Facebook was never my strong suit because of estranged relatives and hometown acquintances, Instagram even worse since I did not have something worth showing off.

That was my fateful encounter with Twitter. Up until that point I had only used it for BulbaTrade back in the Gen 7 days, so I did have an account but was not active elsewhere. But suddenly I got the habit of checking local trends and news, tweeting more and more about them. At first it felt like a good way to pass the time, but eventually the toxicity got me. Anything slightly controversial would get dozens of hateful replies from the opposite side echo chamber. Mutes and blocks were rampant from both sides. Eventually all I could see was the echo chamber of my side. I started public tweeting less and less. Got a few friends I would mostly DM with. Got so distracted with DMs that eventually I would try to catch up with the trends but felt overwhelmed, even with half the content muted/blocked away it was too much for a daily basis. Oh and some of my DM "friends" ended up very toxic leading to me deciding to distance myself for good about a month ago.

So yes, after my toxic experience there for 2.5 years I would like forums back. No mutes/blocks, you have to see all the content and just choose to ignore it. Which in practice means the average poster is more well behaved even if there are disagreements, rules are just enforced better. The pace is much slower, easier to keep up. And if some positive interactions do form, they are far more meaningful, I still remember of most regulars of those days here fondly.

 

[Blanc]

Another thing that might be worth mentioning is how prevelant "cringe culture" is with how the internet is treated. I know the concept has been around for longer but it wasn't as publicized nor back then was it to the point that you had communities with sometimes over 10,000 people and I think for people who are in my generation or younger many of us who are in fandom have been posted to those groups at some point, and that's a big confidence killer. Where this comes in is something I've noticed is this seems to be impacting how people view forums where there are a lot less roleplay and fanfiction. I'm very thankful Bulbagarden still has these but in most forums it can seem taboo or like people are too scared to post things. There's this expectation that need to post things of high quality.

This entire paragraph is SO real. Cringe culture like you said has no doubt probably been a thing for a long time, but it’s so prevalent these days that it has had long term effects on what we choose to share. I don’t want to say that cringe culture IS the reason forum activities like fanfiction and RP aren’t shared as much as they used to be anywhere (not JUST bulba) but it does play a part. Nowadays everyone is exposed to what happens to people who are made clowns of, and we’re all subconsciously hesitant in a way because of it. Hell, maybe I’m projecting because I know that’s what’s holding me back personally, but still…

I miss when this forum was actually for miscellaneous discussions rather than just throwaway polls like "what was the last thing you ____"...

It’s not always ‘throwaway’ content, some people are genuinely curious and beginning with a question can at times lead to a discussion about said things tbh.

But suddenly I got the habit of checking local trends and news, tweeting more and more about them. At first it felt like a good way to pass the time, but eventually the toxicity got me

I entirely feel this. I got similarly “poisoned by the internet” and took a hiatus from twitter because of it. Trying to better my health and mindset before I start posting on socials again.

you have to see all the content and just choose to ignore it.

The ideal tbh, but maybe I’m just biased because I’m an old soul and this is how I’ve always functioned. Idk maybe I’m just spitballing now, but I swear somewhere along our internet growth everyone became less “agree to disagree” and more that every disagreement has to have a moral high ground… For justification beyond me.

I’m kinda droning now, but on the bright side I can say I’ve just learned to curate my spaces more as I’ve gotten older, forums simply give me the benefit of having to do that less.

 

[Pikochu]

In re Support and Advice:

As it has been mentioned before, it's a separate section for those who want to discuss more sensitive matters. But more importantly, the main reason it is separate from the rest of OtB is because some people just want to have that separate space to discuss such matters.

In addition, for those who just want to causally browse the "General" or "OtB" without having to even read the title as to whether the thread is "someone's serious problem."

In short, the addition of the Support and Advice forum is a simple solution to give what posters what they wanted; a place where serious life matters can be discussed and a place for those who are just not interested to not do so.

If there are any additional questions or comments about Support and Advice forum, feel free to contact me or another staff member.

 

[WyndonCalling]

Mild necromancy AND a slight tangent:

I use Twitter both semi-professionally (as in, I can justify scrolling for hours as part of my media monitoring) and my social media role here has come to be a larger part of my life than I ever thought it would be - so I can say with confidence that the birdsite is demonically good at what it does. It's a constant cascade of information and, if you're half-decent with it, validation, and the format rewards confident, pithy analysis and sharp jokes. It's often characterised as a hive of tribal, snippy negativity (and it can certainly become that if you misjudge the construction of your feed) but this doesn't really do credit to the social cocaine at play that managed to draw in just about every news outlet and journalist on the planet. It's a terrible, powerful thing.

 

[Clip Clop]

Oh, I love the good old days. And what really kills me is to look back 10 years and say "that was SO much better!" Spoiler, 10 years ago was NOT "the good old days." But there is a real trend towards garbage. It's the usability of the web. Interfaces. And control, so much control. Why the fuck do I need to "prove it's me" if I happen to have the right username and password? Did those just coincidentally show up? You've got places like Twitter and throwaway job applications acting like you're about to enter MILNET or your bank account if you (formerly) elected to be pestered about whether you were authorized to log in.

We had UBBs, sonny! The vBulletins were a downgrade, but they worked. And now the very concept of a forum is considered quaint. Why? And why is there a bar floating at the top of my page hijacking part of the screen? Is keeping track or being able to keep track of where I am on a page considered too much control for me?

The good old days, hmph! I started using reddit, not because I was especially interested in that cesspool, but because I craved the contact and ability to discuss that seemingly is impossible elsewhere. How about some threaded replies? What if I don't read discussions on phones? I don't know what "discord" is but it sounds hard to access. We had mIRC, sonny! Actually it sounds like a newsgroup, but I don't know. The consolidation of creative, independent communities is nauseating and very diminishing to the character and quality of those communities. Why is every fucking game discussion on a steam page you have to buy something to post on now? Huh? I always said they were up to no good, now that has become a forgotten, antique position, washed away by the tides of the young and the forces of monopoly.

We had a BEAUTIFUL UBB...
And later a BEAUTIFUL phpBB. That one might come back on-line, without its original database, but oh what a magnificent design, and all people have to say about it is what "apps" it integrates with and whether it's got the latest security patch to exclude bots and scripts from vandalizing it. Vandalizing what? A trash web site that isn't worth trashing anyhow?

Sorry, I'm not good at ...communication.

If anyone wants I will go ahead and share a link to YesterWeb. They're a community focused on bringing back the aspects of the internet that I saw people talking about and I thought it might be of interest to some. They also have an active forum and actually recently closed their Discord server in favor of a forum.

I had a look at that. They are closing their forum, likely deleting it afterwards. How ironic. And contrary to what you might expect, it's this complex "project" run by literal communists who are trying to use the nostalgic web of the past as an inspiration for building a more people focused, less commercialized/controlled web in the future. Not exactly the most accessible, understandable, or popular topic. And they say it's too big a project and that like all matters of life, it is transitory, it dissolves at the throne of the almighty, entropy, what they call "eternal September," to mean a never ending stream of the culturally unenlightened washing away the efforts of a few diehards to create a more socially conscious web. Like who has time for that.

 

[Zexy]

Google account 2FA has gone a bit too far, simply trying to prove I am me (or worse, my family members who are not as tech savvy want me to fix their stuff since they kinda cannot, are them) to a machine has become more of a chore than ever. Especially if two of the devices (laptop and phone) get issues at the same time and the one just expects the other to always be functional just to log in and start synchronizing things again.

Seriously I have given my best friend a throwaway Google account with lots of the important stuff (I trust him with) in it to keep in his devices too in case I somehow get locked out of everything and he has done the same and we have actually used these a couple times in a pinch. I wish I could do that with my father too but he is afraid it will only make the "prove you are you" worse if "your" devices are spread over too many locations.