Review JN123: The Semifinals II: "Dazzle"

[Daren]

Remember those halcyon days when Dragonite was revered for being undefeated?

Leagues seem to have it out for Ash's fully-evolved psuedos.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Remember those halcyon days when Dragonite was revered for being undefeated?

No wonder Lance bounced first chance he got

He's off to cry in the Dragon's Den while Clair laughs at him

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Remember those halcyon days when Dragonite was revered for being undefeated?

Leagues seem to have it out for Ash's fully-evolved psuedos.

Goodra: (to Dragonite) Oh, you too, huh.

 

[Sai]

Rewatched the gastrodon part again, Pikachu's quick attacks pretty much crushed the boulders on top of Gastrodon and the debris all hit it in the air. I suppose the animation didn't make that as clear as it could of been, but Gastrodon seemed to be taken out by the weight of the rocks and not just quick attack.

Sucker Punch stopping Dragonite from launching its first Draco Meteor is a pity for it, but it going down and taking the L was fine.

 

[Alola]

I’ve got to disagree there. While Dragonite may have still been asleep when Ash sent it out again, there would have been at least an opportunity for it to wake up against another opponent and wouldn’t leave it as a sitting duck while Spiritomb basically negates any actual damage that had been done to it in the first place.

This doesn't make sense to me. If Ash recalled Dragonite and later sent it out, it would still be a "sitting duck" for whomever Cynthia has out at the time. Even if you take Spiritomb out of the picture, what's to stop her from switching to Garchomp, Milotic, or Gastrodon, who could all hit the sleeping Dragonite super-effectively? Or Togekiss, assuming it has a Fairy move? It seems kind of moot to argue that recalling it for someone else would have been better strategically.

It’s never a good move to simply turn a Pokémon in your team into a sacrificial lamb especially when Ash loses nothing by swapping out and, given that Dragonite went down without doing much, changes nothing about how the rest of the battle for this episode went aside from Ash having another usable Pokémon.

I assume you don't battle competitively with this statement (which these battles are emulating the atmosphere of); but I'm aware I could also be wrong. Using Pokémon as pivots or allowing a heavily impaired Pokémon to be knocked out to allow for a clean switch into something advantageous or healthy is a highly effective strategy in Pokémon Battles; even in casual play. Provided Dragonite's sleep counter remained the same, Ash wouldn't have gained anything by switching out as he would still have a sleeping Dragonite that Cynthia would have several turns to freely attack (and subsequently KO).

 

[Kurolegacy]

This doesn't make sense to me. If Ash recalled Dragonite and later sent it out, it would still be a "sitting duck" for whomever Cynthia has out at the time. Even if you take Spiritomb out of the picture, what's to stop her from switching to Garchomp, Milotic, or Gastrodon, who could all hit the sleeping Dragonite super-effectively? Or Togekiss, assuming it has a Fairy move? It seems kind of moot to argue that recalling it for someone else would have been better strategically.

I assume you don't battle competitively with this statement (which these battles are emulating the atmosphere of); but I'm aware I could also be wrong. Using Pokémon as pivots or allowing a heavily impaired Pokémon to be knocked out to allow for a clean switch into something advantageous or healthy is a highly effective strategy in Pokémon Battles; even in casual play. Provided Dragonite's sleep counter remained the same, Ash wouldn't have gained anything by switching out as he would still have a sleeping Dragonite that Cynthia would have several turns to freely attack (and subsequently KO).

Thing is, Spiritomb as a threat is a specific strategy that exists for it to essentially pull off the same type of 1-2 punch that Tobias’ Darkrai used back in the Sinnoh League. It renders the opponent asleep and allows for the offender to then continuously drain the defenseless Pokémon’s energy while healing itself. As we saw when it was done by Darkrai and again here, there’s a low chance of recovery from it due to such a combo as Pokémon tend to not be able to simply shake off Dream Eater in the same way as normal attacks. Had it returned to the battle later, the threat of that deadly combo is gone and while it would certainly take some hits, there would still be an opportunity for it to wake up and, even if damaged, put up some kind of fight.

As for the competitive comparison, even with the illusion that this is mean to imitate such s thing, the anime, especially when Ash is involved, shows that it’s an entirely different monster. While Cynthia may incorporate such things as a sacrificial move into her strategy as shown with Destiny Bond, Ash isn’t the type who strategizes around sacrificing any of his Pokémon in a battle and the loss of one, especially one as strong as Dragonite, puts him on the back foot. Ash relies on things that are entirely unorthodox and would never even translate into competitive play such as how he took down Gastrodon. So while a competitive argument may work for the others who were in the Masters 8, plays like that don’t work for Ash and have actually put him at a disadvantage due to the loss.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

Thing is, Spiritomb as a threat is a specific strategy that exists for it to essentially pull off the same type of 1-2 punch that Tobias’ Darkrai used back in the Sinnoh League. It renders the opponent asleep and allows for the offender to then continuously drain the defenseless Pokémon’s energy while healing itself. As we saw when it was done by Darkrai and again here, there’s a low chance of recovery from it due to such a combo as Pokémon tend to not be able to simply shake off Dream Eater in the same way as normal attacks. Had it returned to the battle later, the threat of that deadly combo is gone and while it would certainly take some hits, there would still be an opportunity for it to wake up and, even if damaged, put up some kind of fight.

As for the competitive comparison, even with the illusion that this is mean to imitate such s thing, the anime, especially when Ash is involved, shows that it’s an entirely different monster. While Cynthia may incorporate such things as a sacrificial move into her strategy as shown with Destiny Bond, Ash isn’t the type who strategizes around sacrificing any of his Pokémon in a battle and the loss of one, especially one as strong as Dragonite, puts him on the back foot. Ash relies on things that are entirely unorthodox and would never even translate into competitive play such as how he took down Gastrodon. So while a competitive argument may work for the others who were in the Masters 8, plays like that don’t work for Ash and have actually put him at a disadvantage due to the loss.

I don't recall Spiritomb actually taking any damage from Dragonite, and even if it did, it was so little that it was fully healed after the first Dream Eater. Beyond that point, Dream Eater only functions as a (non-stab) damaging move. Recalling Dragonite wouldn't increase it's chances of waking up because it can only wake up while on the field, and being put back in it's Pokeball doesn't shorten the time it stays asleep, just pauses it. Dragonite can tank a few Dream Eaters, especially since Spiritomb is more defensive than offensive, so it had a much better chance of waking up here than against something like Garchomp.

I'd also add that there was a weakness in Cynthia's strategy of spamming Dream Eater. If Dragonite did manage to wake up at any point, Spiritomb would suddenly be locked into an ineffective attack, allowing Dragonite to get a free hit in, or be switched out safely.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Leagues seem to have it out for Ash's fully-evolved psuedos.

Dragonite getting the Goodra treatment
Really hope it at least gets one win against Leon

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Rewatched the gastrodon part again, Pikachu's quick attacks pretty much crushed the boulders on top of Gastrodon and the debris all hit it in the air. I suppose the animation didn't make that as clear as it could of been, but Gastrodon seemed to be taken out by the weight of the rocks and not just quick attack.

Sucker Punch stopping Dragonite from launching its first Draco Meteor is a pity for it, but it going down and taking the L was fine.

It absorbed the impact from the rocks (the announcer even says it)

None of the debris hit it after Pikachu shattered the pieces with Quick Attack - it was simply pushed back to Cynthia and keeled over

 

[Alola]

Thing is, Spiritomb as a threat is a specific strategy that exists for it to essentially pull off the same type of 1-2 punch that Tobias’ Darkrai used back in the Sinnoh League. It renders the opponent asleep and allows for the offender to then continuously drain the defenseless Pokémon’s energy while healing itself. As we saw when it was done by Darkrai and again here, there’s a low chance of recovery from it due to such a combo as Pokémon tend to not be able to simply shake off Dream Eater in the same way as normal attacks. Had it returned to the battle later, the threat of that deadly combo is gone and while it would certainly take some hits, there would still be an opportunity for it to wake up and, even if damaged, put up some kind of fight.

Given how differently moves can function from saga to saga, I don't think drawing upon Tobias' execution of the move (over a decade ago) as the end all be all for how it works is credible. Dragonite is just as likely to be knocked out with other attacks while asleep as it would with Dream Eater. If we're going to reference Tobias, then I'll draw attention to another Sinnoh opponent who specialized in sleeping techniques - Fantina. Her main battle strategy was to render her opponents asleep and beat them into unconsciousness, without Dream Eater mind you, which is what happened to Ash multiple times in his battles with her. Again, the point can be argued both ways; it could be said he didn't want to subject Dragonite to super-effective attacks while it slept, especially when it took more than two Dream Eaters to do in Dragonite.

As for the competitive comparison, even with the illusion that this is mean to imitate such s thing, the anime, especially when Ash is involved, shows that it’s an entirely different monster. While Cynthia may incorporate such things as a sacrificial move into her strategy as shown with Destiny Bond, Ash isn’t the type who strategizes around sacrificing any of his Pokémon in a battle and the loss of one, especially one as strong as Dragonite, puts him on the back foot. Ash relies on things that are entirely unorthodox and would never even translate into competitive play such as how he took down Gastrodon. So while a competitive argument may work for the others who were in the Masters 8, plays like that don’t work for Ash and have actually put him at a disadvantage due to the loss.

Ash also wasn't one to utilize stat boosting moves, for decades, but broke that mold with Dragonite. I don't think one should completely classify the way Ash battles given his notable penchant (which has been explicitly referenced several times this saga) for continuously adapting and evolving his battle style to fit the situation. Case in point, he deemed it best to try to wake up Dragonite sooner rather than keep it helplessly asleep for another one of Cynthia's Pokémon to attack.

 

[Kurolegacy]

I don't recall Spiritomb actually taking any damage from Dragonite, and even if it did, it was so little that it was fully healed after the first Dream Eater. Beyond that point, Dream Eater only functions as a (non-stab) damaging move. Recalling Dragonite wouldn't increase it's chances of waking up because it can only wake up while on the field, and being put back in it's Pokeball doesn't shorten the time it stays asleep, just pauses it. Dragonite can tank a few Dream Eaters, especially since Spiritomb is more defensive than offensive, so it had a much better chance of waking up here than against something like Garchomp.

I'd also add that there was a weakness in Cynthia's strategy of spamming Dream Eater. If Dragonite did manage to wake up at any point, Spiritomb would suddenly be locked into an ineffective attack, allowing Dragonite to get a free hit in, or be switched out safely.

Spiritomb took a Draco Meteor as the opening move which would have caused some damage if not much. And you can’t really claim that Dragonite can tank the Dream Eaters considering that it went down after 2-3 of them. And as I stated before, it’s better to have recalled Dragonite to give it a chance to wake up in a later point in the battle than to simply leave it out there in a guaranteed loss.

Even the statement of what if it had woken up against Spiritomb is a poor argument for leaving it out there as, it was being left helpless against Cynthia’s strategy of the hypnosis/dream eater combo with no recovery, bringing us to the very inaction that resulted in its loss. In the case of Ash recalling it, we don’t know what could have happened down the line in the battle to change its situation, while in the case of leaving it out, we saw the e d result of that.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Given how differently moves can function from saga to saga, I don't think drawing upon Tobias' execution of the move (over a decade ago) as the end all be all for how it works is credible. Dragonite is just as likely to be knocked out with other attacks while asleep as it would with Dream Eater. If we're going to reference Tobias, then I'll draw attention to another Sinnoh opponent who specialized in sleeping techniques - Fantina. Her main battle strategy was to render her opponents asleep and beat them into unconsciousness, without Dream Eater mind you, which is what happened to Ash multiple times in his battles with her. Again, the point can be argued both ways; it could be said he didn't want to subject Dragonite to super-effective attacks while it slept, especially when it took more than two Dream Eaters to do in Dragonite

Except in this case it worked exactly the same way that it did with Tobias. The only difference was that it replaced Dark Void with Hypnosis. And regardless of what Ash’s intentions may have been by theory, that doesn’t change that he made the unwise move of leaving his Dragonite to repeatedly be drained by Spiritomb while he was capable of doing something about it and resulted in him losing a Pokémon that could have lived to fight another day.

 

[Alola]

Except in this case it worked exactly the same way that it did with Tobias.

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment.

The only difference was that it replaced Dark Void with Hypnosis. And regardless of what Ash’s intentions may have been by theory, that doesn’t change that he made the unwise move of leaving his Dragonite to repeatedly be drained by Spiritomb while he was capable of doing something about it and resulted in him losing a Pokémon that could have lived to fight another day.

It's interesting, because even the anime lampshaded how recalling a sleeping Pokémon doesn't necessarily mean it will be able to do anything when it's sent out again - Brock said as much when Ash battled Fantina the first time. I don't recall any criticism for Ash leaving in the sleeping Pokémon that he did during both his battles with her. But I recall Ash being able to defeat Tobias' Darkrai specifically because he left in Sceptile, who was sleeping, rather than recall it and try for something else; something you would deem unwise, but proved to be instrumental and a defining moment of Sceptile's battling career as well as that iteration of the Sinnoh League. But anyway, I digress - we can agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Kurolegacy]

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment.

It's interesting, because even the anime lampshaded how recalling a sleeping Pokémon doesn't necessarily mean it will be able to do anything when it's sent out again - Brock said as much when Ash battled Fantina the first time. I don't recall any criticism for Ash leaving in the sleeping Pokémon that he did during both his battles with her. But I recall Ash being able to defeat Tobias' Darkrai specifically because he left in Sceptile, who was sleeping, rather than recall it and try for something else; something you would deem unwise, but proved to be instrumental and a defining moment of Sceptile's battling career as well as that iteration of the Sinnoh League. But anyway, I digress - we can agree to disagree at this point.

I’m saying that the move of Dream Eater functions exactly the same way that it did when Ash faced Tobias. The only difference is that Dark Void was used instead of Hypnosis to the same effect.

And there’s a difference between. Cantina’s battle and and this as well as Sceptile’s situation. In the case of Fantina, she made quick work to finish his Pokémon directly after putting them to sleep She wasn’t giving him the opportunity to recall the sleeping Pokémon. And in Sceptile’s case, it woke up instantly after taking Darkrai’s Dream Eater. The first gave Ash no opportunity to recall his Pokémon and the second instantly caused that it wasn’t necessary. In this battle however, Ash sat there and allowed Dragonite to be bombarded with multiple Dream Eaters and made no action to save it no matter how south things were getting. But I’ll agree to just disagree on this.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

And as I stated before, it’s better to have recalled Dragonite to give it a chance to wake up in a later point in the battle than to simply leave it out there in a guaranteed loss.

How is it a guaranteed loss when Dragonite can wake up at any moment? And how is it worse to to leave Dragonite defenseless against Spiritomb than sending out later to be defenseless against any of Cynthia's other juggernauts? Dragonite's already asleep, so Hypnosis is no longer a threat to it, and Dream Eater isn't inherently more dangerous than any of the attacks that Cynthia's other Pokemon would be spamming were they the ones on the field.

Ash doesn't have any method of waking Dragonite, so the time it stays asleep cannot be reduced. That fact that it didn't wake up against Spiritomb proves that it would never have had another chance to wake up for the rest of the battle. We know it stays asleep long enough to be attacked at least three times, and there's no scenario in which Cynthia is unable to KO a sleeping Dragonite in three turns/attacks.

With that in mind, the optimal play is to assume that Dragonite will wake up quickly and commit to an aggressive counterattack. If you're wrong, you're no worse off. On the contrary, it's better to know ahead of time if Dragonite's going to be a non-factor because then at least you can plan the rest of the battle accordingly.

 

[Kurolegacy]

How is it a guaranteed loss when Dragonite can wake up at any moment? And how is it worse to to leave Dragonite defenseless against Spiritomb than sending out later to be defenseless against any of Cynthia's other juggernauts? Dragonite's already asleep, so Hypnosis is no longer a threat to it, and Dream Eater isn't inherently more dangerous than any of the attacks that Cynthia's other Pokemon would be spamming were they the ones on the field.

How is it a guaranteed loss? Because that’s exactly what did happen in the episode. You can’t really argue on a what if of a scenario that flat out played out in the very episode. While a change in tactics at least has the possibility of changing the course of how a situation plays out, changing nothing guarantees that you will get things how the episode showed. But I’m just gonna agree to disagree because this is just going in circles at this point.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

How is it a guaranteed loss? Because that’s exactly what did happen in the episode. You can’t really argue on a what if of a scenario that flat out played out in the very episode. While a change in tactics at least has the possibility of changing the course of how a situation plays out, changing nothing guarantees that you will get things how the episode showed. But I’m just gonna agree to disagree because this is just going in circles at this point.

Players in the games also sometimes keep their sleeping Pokémon out in the hopes it'll wake up before losing. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. I'd say Ash's strategy was relatable to many.

 

[NotAPassenger]

To be honest, keeping Dragonite in is the exact play I’d have done in the games? Sleep status lasts for what 1-5 turns? The risk is recalling, Spiritomb then putting another member to sleep and the loop goes on and on. Sacrifice one member to move on and hope the luck of a 1 turn sleep round is on your side. On this occasion, it was not but having more Pokémon put to sleep was not in Ash’s best interest.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Players in the games also sometimes keep their sleeping Pokémon out in the hopes it'll wake up before losing. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. I'd say Ash's strategy was relatable to many.

But again, this isn’t the games nor should an anime battle be treated as such by the fandom. The anime takes far too many liberties when it comes to battle to the point that it’s practically apples and oranges. For example, the way Ash beat Gastrodon isn’t something that could ever happen in the games because the anime is a unique medium.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

But again, this isn’t the games nor should an anime battle be treated as such by the fandom. The anime takes far too many liberties when it comes to battle to the point that it’s practically apples and oranges. For example, the way Ash beat Gastrodon isn’t something that could ever happen in the games because the anime is a unique medium.

To me, Ash leaving Dragonite in and hoping it'd wake up was better than recalling it and leaving it wide open when sent back out later.