Kanto/Johto Sequels

[Bolt Strike]

But it isn't far away; it's very close to the unused island. And I have no idea what you mean by "a marathon of routes", especially if Lavender were to be visited first.

Early game sections usually don't do multiple routes in between cities, and even when they do they're usually short and don't have a lot of trainers. Rt. 14 and 15 are long and far away from everything, so they don't make good early game routes. You'll probably want to start players out somewhere with more cities and less routes (like the area around Saffron) so that they can take frequent breaks as they learn the game's mechanics.

They could also place a Pokémon Center in one of the routes.

That would be awkward and unfitting.

Those would obviously be decided accordingly.

Let's hear it then. What Pokemon would you catch at that point in the game? What levels would the Pokemon and trainers be? What Pokemon would the trainers use (Janine in particular)?

 

[Silktree]

Early game sections usually don't do multiple routes in between cities, and even when they do they're usually short and don't have a lot of trainers. Rt. 14 and 15 are long and far away from everything, so they don't make good early game routes. You'll probably want to start players out somewhere with more cities and less routes so that they can take frequent breaks as they learn the game's mechanics.

Only Route 15 would be relevant to the path between the island and Fuschia, and I'm sorry, but it isn't long. It's actually ideal for backtracking due to the ledge system.

That would be awkward and unfitting.

It's also unnecessary, so I won't bother questioning your logic.

Let's hear it then. What Pokemon would you catch at that point in the game? What levels would the Pokemon and trainers be? What Pokemon would the trainers use (Janine in particular)?

The trainers and wild Pokémon would be the standard fare, and Janine would use Zubat and Ariados. What's the problem? I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that nothing can change from the original games.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Only Route 15 would be relevant to the path between the island and Fuchsia, and I'm sorry, but it isn't long. It's actually ideal for backtracking due to the ledge system.

That's still a poor choice because there's only two cities in that section and you're still ridiculously far from everything. In fact, everything else in Kanto is incredibly clustered, so it makes zero sense to pick the one part of Kanto that's middle of nowhere to start the game, the pacing and difficulty are completely backwards.

The trainers and wild Pokémon would be the standard fare

Like? Give me some specifics.

and Janine would use Zubat and Ariados.

Ariados? For the first gym? You sure you don't mean Spinarak?

Anyway, what levels would they be? What would you use against them? You'll probably want to put some Psychic types or Fire types or something on the early game routes.

What's the problem? I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that nothing can change from the original games.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that I don't think Rt. 14 and 15 would have a good early game selection and they wouldn't adequately prepare you to fight Janine.

 

[Silktree]

That's still a poor choice because there's only two cities in that section and you're still ridiculously far from everything. In fact, everything else in Kanto is incredibly clustered, so it makes zero sense to pick the one part of Kanto that's middle of nowhere to start the game, the pacing and difficulty are completely backwards.

Look at my map. The gyms aren't clustered at all; the path to the first one is the shortest.

Like? Give me some specifics.

Ratatta, Pidgey, Caterpie, Weedle and Drowzee. I am not going to bother with random trainers.

Ariados? For the first gym? You sure you don't mean Spinarak?

I forgot about its evolution level, but otherwise, it's weaker than Vivillon. Beedril or Nidorina (level 16) would work nicely instead.

Anyway, what levels would they be? What would you use against them? You'll probably want to put some Psychic types or Fire types or something on the early game routes.

Drowzee would be enough.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that I don't think Rt. 14 and 15 would have a good early game selection and they wouldn't adequately prepare you to fight Janine.

So which is it? Are they too long or insufficient for training?

 

[Bolt Strike]

Look at my map. The gyms aren't clustered at all; the path to the first one is the shortest.

Except you have the longest gap after the 1st gym. The pacing simply isn't appropriate for the early game, you have one route before the first gym, and then eons until the next gym. The distance between the starting town and 1st gym is too short, the 1st gym is always at least Lv. 10 and you need at least 3 or 4 areas worth of training to be ready for that. And then the distance between the 1st and 2nd gym is too long, you have to travel through 2-3 routes to even reach the next city, let alone the next gym. Appropriate pacing for the first two gyms usually goes something like this:

Starting Town -> 1 route -> Second city -> 1-2 routes (sometimes with a forest or cave in between) -> 1st gym -> 1-2 routes (sometimes with a forest or cave in between) -> 2nd gym.

The pacing in general for the series trends from shorter gaps in the early game to longer gaps later in the game. This is for good reason, because the longer the routes, the more challenging it is to traverse them (because it means less opportunities to heal, more trainers to fight, etc.). In this case, you're going backwards, you're starting the player off through the longest gap in the game and then everything else is one route apart. The pacing would be much more appropriate if you visit Fuchsia late in the game where the stretch from Rt. 12-15 serves as more of a challenge for the player.

So which is it? Are they too long or insufficient for training?

Both, they're too long and there's too few of them. You get Rt. 15, and Rt. 14 and probably Rt. 18 as optional routes, that's too few areas leading up to the 1st gym.

 

[Silktree]

It's funny how your arguments go all over the place. Now you're saying that the path to the first gym is too short because it's only two (long) routes? As opposed to Cheren's gym? And as far as the second gym is concerned, look no further than Grant. So what if there were towns in between?

The idea that there should be one single formula for regional design is not one I support, and frankly, neither does Game Freak.

In this case, you're going backwards, you're starting the player off through the longest gap in the game and then everything else is one route apart.

You clearly don't remember my map. I don't know why we're having this discussion.

 

[Bolt Strike]

It's funny how your arguments go all over the place. Now you're saying that the path to the first gym is too short because it's only two (long) routes?

I'm all over the place? No, it's your pacing that's all over the place, you have two opposite extremes right at the beginning of the game. What I'm saying is that you need more of a middle ground, the first gym is too close and the second is too far.

As opposed to Cheren's gym?

Which level wise was weak for a first gym leader and would've been a complete sweep if the Pokemon at that point in the game weren't near useless against him.

And as far as the second gym is concerned, look no further than Grant. So what if there were towns in between?

The towns make a huge difference, they serve as resting points to break up the adventure. When you just have a long string of routes, it puts a strain on the player because you have more trainers to fight, and if you need to heal you either have to buy a shit ton of healing items or make frequent trips back to the last city (which takes forever). You don't want to put players through all of that so early in the game.

The idea that there should be one single formula for regional design is not one I support, and frankly, neither does Game Freak.

I never said it needs to be formulaic, I was simply listing what the average pacing would be. The key word here is "trend", it's a general pattern in the region design that gives the player an appropriate challenge. What I'm trying to say is that it's okay to deviate every so often, but you go too far with it.

You clearly don't remember my map. I don't know why we're having this discussion.

I reviewed your map. Everything except Fuchsia is one city apart.

 

[Silktree]

What I'm saying is that you need more of a middle ground, the first gym is too close and the second is too far.

And I disagree with that assessment.

Which level wise was weak for a first gym leader and would've been a complete sweep if the Pokemon at that point in the game weren't near useless against him.

And yet it happened without there being a complete sweep; that sounds a lot like most initial gyms. And I don't see why Janine would necessarily be low-leveled.

The unused island could accommodate some forest, to say nothing of Pal Park being replaced by a forest instead of another Safari Zone. But these things aren't even necessary.

The towns make a huge difference, they serve as resting points to break up the adventure. When you just have a long string of routes, it puts a strain on the player because you have more trainers to fight, and if you need to heal you either have to buy a shit ton of healing items or make frequent trips back to the last city (which takes forever). You don't want to put players through all of that so early in the game.

Again, Pokémon Centers can exist in routes, if not as simple beds in random houses.

I reviewed your map. Everything except Fuchsia is one city apart.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Does "one city apart" mean that there are no towns between the gyms? If so, that's only true for Fuchsia, which is the opposite of your claim.

1 -> Fuchsia
Fuchsia -> 1 -> Vermilion
Vermilion -> Saffron -> Celadon
Celadon -> Saffron -> Vermilion -> Pewter
Pewter -> Viridian -> Pallet -> Cinnabar
Cinnabar -> Fuchsia -> 1 -> Lavender
Lavender -> Cerulean -> 12
12 -> 13 -> 14

If anything, there is a bit too much backtracking, but that's a completely separate issue.

 

[Kallyle]

Okay, so I just had a crazy idea for Kanto sequels. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but it seems like a good idea to me ATM. Therefore, I shall share my insane thoughts that are unlikely to ever happen:

What if Kanto sequels were to start off Gen. 7 instead of a new region? Basically, it would be an updated Kanto with new Pokémon introduced into it.

Now, I know it sounds absurd, especially since adding 70-100 new Pokes would lead to plot holes of not being there before, but what if the new species sudden appearance was part of the plot? Obviously, Prof. Oak would want to know why these new species just popped up in his home region, so he'd send the new protagonist to investigate.

Of course, not everyone in Kanto will just except these new critters, and might even fear them. This is where a new Team Something comes in. Team Something all believe that these new Pokémon are demons of some sort that want to bring about the apocalypse, and will attempt to exterminate them "for the greater good." Not only will this evil team be a jab at the "genwunners" crowd, but also display how irrationally people can react to the unknown. Of course, part of the blame will turn out to be a duo of legendary Pokémon whose myths were forgotten by the people of Kanto over time.

Again, all of this in unlikely to happen, but it would make for a great 20th anniversary, no? Discuss!

 

[BlackButterfree]

I honestly wouldn't mind Raging FireRed and Graceful LeafGreen as re-remakes. But they need to give the unpicked PC (Red/Leaf) a bigger role rather than making them disappear. And since OR/AS referenced the manga and anime, hey how about we get a Yellow cameo, too. She's awesome. And they need to make Kanto more of an interesting region and make Team Rocket more diabolical. I'm not saying make them obsessed with legendaries like other teams, but make their influence reach into every single town, make them more prominent. They're the mafia for Arceus' sake. Also, give us Mew and Guyana, and Sevii and every thing else.

Just revamp everything and make it fresh! Include that Oak battle from the RGBY code tbh

Also, in the Gen. 6 thread, a lot of people were speculating that the original RGBY and GSC could be uploaded to the Nintendo E-Shop for their respective anniversaries. I for one would love that since the actual cartridges have long since been obsolete. Also nice would be RSE and FR/LG. All other games after that can be played on the 3DS lol

 

[Silktree]

There is a separate thread for discussing remakes.

Now, I know it sounds absurd, especially since adding 70-100 new Pokes would lead to plot holes of not being there before, but what if the new species sudden appearance was part of the plot? Obviously, Prof. Oak would want to know why these new species just popped up in his home region, so he'd send the new protagonist to investigate.

Adding new Pokémon to Kanto doesn't really require much of a plot, considering that Generation II Pokémon showed up there without any explanation (likewise for old Pokémon migarting to B2W2 Unova). The explanation for non-Hoenn Pokémon appearing in ORAS was fairly weak, too.

That said, I don't see why Game Freak would use Kanto as the main setting of a new generation, when they could simply introduce a new region first and revisit Kanto a year later. It would work especially well if said new region were based on Guyana, as then the Kanto sequels could also be linked to the initial versions as explained in my first post:

A good starting point would be basing the Generation VII region on Guyana, which was referenced in Generation I as being Mew's home. Guyana was indirectly referenced recently via the anime, which rather randomly mentioned Guipna Highlands (Guipna being a corruption of Guyana) as "one of the last unexplored regions in the world." This might coincide with XY's foreshadowing of the Strange Souvenir region, which isn't unexplored but perhaps it is only recently established or Guipna Highlands are an unexplored sub-region of it. Either way, I think it would be interesting if for once at least some of the new Pokémon were treated as new discoveries (much like Mew back in the day), which was the original plan for Generation II (only Steel-type Pokémon ended up being treated that way before the eventual retcon, but there was barely any exposition to begin with).

What does this have to do with Kanto? It is connected to Guyana story-wise via Mew and Mewtwo's backstory. All we know about it is that Dr. Fuji (who is strongly hinted to be Mr. Fuji's past self) discovered Mew in a Guyanese jungle and Mew gave birth to Mewtwo, which ended up being held in the Pokémon Mansion (its genetic code was repeatedly recombined) only to escape after Fuji had failed to control it. We don't know what the purpose of the experiment was, why Fuji went so far ("horrific gene splicing" is against his kind nature) or if he was working entirely alone. He did fund the Cinnabar Pokémon Lab, which is known for creating Porygon and reviving fossils. According to an E-mail, the lab's research team planned to explore Cerulean Cave (despite looking for the legendary birds) around the events of Generation I; they presumably encountered Mewtwo, but we don't know how that turned out. Two years later, the lab was destroyed due to the volcano eruption, but since it was reported that no one got killed, the researchers presumably moved to another region. Could they be in Guyana now?

What I have in mind for the next generation is filling in the many blanks about Kanto and Guyana's shared backstory and continuing it via the research team's efforts to succeed where Fuji failed (perhaps willingly). I see that story starting in Guyana (in the initial versions) and culminating in Kanto (in the sequels) with the return of the research team; perhaps they will look for both Mew and Mewtwo to compare their DNA and develop a general method for splicing genes. More importantly, is Mew truly the ancestor of most Pokémon? How did Pokémon come to exist? Can new species be created naturally rather than artificially?

 

[Mitchman]

Because the content of the gen 6 future thread is now a debate of when of what and not really a place to discuss big ideas, I am bumping this thread to post my idea for Kanto sequels in full.

-Takes place 20 years later. You are the son/daughter of the Pokemon Champion Red. The day before you set out on a journey of your own, Red goes missing when investigating rumors of a TR resurgence. Professor Oak, Gary Oak, hands you a Pokemon and Pokedex, with words of caution as you set out to find your father.
-Gym leaders are all older, or have been replaced(in the cases of Vermillion,Cinnibar and Veridian at least). Mosy of the cities grew in size, while towns became cities themselves, and new settlements have popped up all over.
-As I said, the plot involves some form of TR, but on a bigger scale. Help will show up in the form of the old RB protags, an elder Lance, and even an aged Silver.
- Johto will not show up, but a majorly expanded Sevii will. Perhaps instead of Updating Kanto main, Sevii gets incorporated into the region.
-Pokeathlon returns, with the Super Training blended in. Gold is now the owner and mentor to participants.
Saffron city gets a a Lumiose style treatment, with 5 sectors. Silph Corp is now a masdive skyscraper ib the middle plaza, central to the plot.
The rout leading to Bills House goes north into new area, and loops around to a new town between cerulean and lavender.
Ties up Mega Evouition as a sort of trilogy, all games take place after it from then on, as a result of some major event.

Basically, make it a new starting point, use the 20 years to do something drastic, and usher in a new era properly.

 

[Silktree]

-Takes place 20 years later. You are the son/daughter of the Pokemon Champion Red.

As I've said before, I am not in favor of this. I think that 10 years after Generation II should be enough for Kanto to have changed a lot without its characters looking too old. Most people would probably rather see Red in his mid 20s than in his 30s. I also don't see the appeal of playing as a preteen again, which Red's child would have to be. I'd be more interested in playing as Red's younger cousin or sibling, with the age gap being 6 years (assuming the protagonist is 18).

-As I said, the plot involves some form of TR, but on a bigger scale. Help will show up in the form of the old RB protags, an elder Lance, and even an aged Silver.

I want to see Giovanni and Silver involved in the plot, but that shouldn't requiring resurrecting Team Rocket yet again. I like the Origins interpretation of Giovanni wanting to be a normal trainer again; hopefully he can make ammends with his son.

Pokeathlon returns, with the Super Training blended in. Gold is now the owner and mentor to participants.

Yes to Pokéathlon (without making it a carbon copy of Johto's), but I'd find it underwhelming if Ethan were given such a role. Tying him to one or more of the Johto legendaries would make more sense.

Perhaps instead of Updating Kanto main, Sevii gets incorporated into the region.

Expanding Kanto for the main story and leaving the islands for the post-game would be ideal.

Ties up Mega Evouition as a sort of trilogy, all games take place after it from then on, as a result of some major event.

I don't see what you're getting at. I think we can establish that Mega Stones aren't exclusive to any region at this point, so what "major event" is needed here? Even the Cave of Origin event could be argued to have made Mega Stones more widespread all over the world.

To be perfectly honest, I would hate to see Mega Evolution as a major story element in Kanto sequels, even though I'm fine with new Mega Evolutions being introduced. For starters, I think that ORAS have already dealt with it extensively; we know that the "major event" was AZ's war 3,000 years ago, which resulted in a universe split. If they want to expand AZ's story, I don't see why it should happen in Kanto. The sequels should be viewed as continuing the story of the original games, which is to say that while Mega Evolution can exist as a gameplay element, it shouldn't be integral to the plot just as it wasn't in Origins. We wouldn't be dealing with remakes which would rely on Mega Evolution to feel different. Besides, by the next generation there could be a new gameplay element that might be story-related.

Mewtwo should be given a non-Mega variant that actually has something to do with its story, being a representation of its undistorted self. I don't think that the Mewtwonites are worth explaining anymore; they were poorly thought out.

 

[Almonds]

As I've said before, I am not in favor of this. I think that 10 years after Generation II should be enough for Kanto to have changed a lot without its characters looking too old. Most people would probably rather see Red in his mid 20s than in his 30s.

I don't want to see Red. References to Red are fine but he really doesn't have to show up in every single Kanto/Johto game.

I'd rather see drastic changes as well. Give us the unexpected. Give us something new.

 

[Silktree]

References to Red are fine but he really doesn't have to show up in every single Kanto/Johto game.

The games wouldn't be better for it. Not addressing Hilbert/Hilda's fate in B2W2 was a lazy move. It should be interesting to see Red as an adult that actually speaks.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Considering Game Freak's aversion to lengthy post games nowadays, I'd be very surprised to see the Sevii Islands again. If they're doing a sequel they'll probably add more areas from Tochigi, but beyond that I don't see them adding too many new areas. I'd rather they put more effort into revitalizing older areas anyway (although if they can do both, they certainly should).

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

We aren't getting any kanto remake/sequel in this gen or any future gen. We are done with Kanto, if you want to visit Kanto then Firered/Leafgreen or Heartgold/Soulsilver. The 20th anniversary may be coming up but it suggest nothing about Kanto coming back. The idea is ridiculous and it not necessary.

 

[Jun]

We aren't getting any kanto remake/sequel in this gen or any future gen. We are done with Kanto, if you want to visit Kanto then Firered/Leafgreen or Heartgold/Soulsilver. The 20th anniversary may be coming up but it suggest nothing about Kanto coming back. The idea is ridiculous and it not necessary.

You know, this is a topic for discussing about a potential upcoming kanto sequels, but if you disagree with this idea, just don't post, because it's pretty useless.

IMO, a 20 years gap would be too much. They would be contemporary with XY so a 10 years gaps would be better.

 

[Silktree]

IMO, a 20 years gap would be too much. They would be contemporary with XY so a 10 years gaps would be better.

XY/B2W2 are probably set 10 years after Generation I (if we assume that Caitlin was 19 in BW; she was 14 originally). The Generation VII games should take place three years after that, meaning 10 years after Generation II.

 

[Mitchman]

@Silktree;
13 years after gen 1 Red would still be in his mid 20s compared to a flat 30 years old. Not that much a difference, and even if this is a way to celebrate the series for older fans, going for a 12 year old protag is fine. We haven't had protags that young since gen 4, with Hilbert, Hilda, Nate, Rosa, Calem and Serena all 15 years old or so. I much prefer a protag that comes along in the form of offsprimg, mirroring the previous generation of trainera. This of course doesn't mean that we will get Green's kid as a rival, but more of a support. The rival position could come from the other gender PC, perhaps the kid of blue.
Team Rocket coming back would be a fluke by some crazies who want nothing but power. Giovanni COULD show up as a normal trainer, along with Silver, to go up against this false TR.
I duno If I would throw Johto legendaries and the mythos attached to tgem at this pont yet. Simply put, nit putting Johto is gonna be a pain in the ass, Iean there are 3 ways to go back in forth in GSC, imagine what would happen with a major time skip.
A mahor event would be explaining hiw megas did spreqd through the world, what exactly is the bond created, and the completion of everyone's research. I dont want megas as gameplay only till we are thoroughly explained about their mysteries, not just tossed aside.


And Jun, 20 years aint that far from the 13 years we alr3ady likely passed, much like Silktree said.