Kind of a strange request...

[Roses Ablaze]

Okay, so generally speaking when it comes to what is moral I go by a slight modification of Mill's utilitarianism (the action that causes the most happiness for the most amount of people is the moral one) and that is: The action that relieves suffering or causes the least amount of suffering is the moral one. Now, I know that no moral system is perfect, so I'm trying to think of a situation in which this maxim would be incorrect. Can someone help me?

 

[XD375]

When a bunch of people are happy because you did something wrong and a lot of people thought it was funny, I guess.

 

[the gadfly]

I've always thought morality was choosing between right and wrong.

By your definition, a moral act would be "the action that relieves suffering or causes the least amount of suffering."

So, would it be more moral with regards to global warming to let people go on living as they always have (no suffering there) or make them pay money one way or another to reduce their greenhouse emissions by forcing them to be more energy-efficient and driving cars with greater MPGs?

Oh, before I forget, regarding that part about relieving suffering, would euthanasia qualify as a moral act?

 

[Fig]

I've always been in the "yes" camp on that last one, gadfly. As a fair warning .

And there is suffering involved in the greenhouse gas proposal : long-term suffering, when the world become a shithole. Just because it will be next generation suffering doesn't mean it's not suffering.

 

[the gadfly]

Damien, we agree on everything. The question is who else agrees. I anticipate differing opinions.

 

[ImJessieTR]

Would genocide count? (as an instance where it could make a lot of people happy but still be morally wrong?) Besides the usual Nazi stuff, when Europeans met native populations, they felt they were doing God's work when they snuffed them out -- which made them very happy (obviously, the natives didn't think so).

Also, recently in the Dallas-FtWorth area there was some psycho who hijacked a semi truck and was being chased by ... uh ... everyone, I think ... anyway ... the streets were filled with people -- CHEERING THE CRIMINAL (and I know, I drove past it on the way home from work). So, the suffering of one made lots of people happy but it was grossly immoral.

 

[Roses Ablaze]

But I'm talking about the lack of suffering, not the presence of happiness.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

Just follow the Ten Commandments, or if your an atheist, follow the last 7(Or I guess It would 6 if you use the protestant Bible) Those ones are just plain moral, and if you refuse to follow at least those, well, there goes your morality, cause you can't not follow those commandments and be moral.

 

[Fig]

Bull.
Shit.

The bible has no exclusivity on morale, regardless of what Jesus Fanbois like you like to think.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

Bull.
Shit.

The bible has no exclusivity on morale, regardless of what Jesus Fanbois like you like to think.

I'm sure you like to believe that but heres the fact


The final 6 or 7(Depending on your demonination) commandments are just plain moral. If you break them, you can't call yourself a moral person. Suming it all up, you are just suppossed to not kill, steal, slut around, lie, lust, and be disobedient to righteous authority. Really, what part of that isnt moral? Those second parts of the commandments arent religious things, they are just plain GOOD rules to follow, no matter what religion you are.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

And, yet, everyone lies. Then we all go around saying how everyone else should be moral. Then we lie again. And then we wonder why people keep doing these bad things. Then we lie again.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

And, yet, everyone lies. Then we all go around saying how everyone else should be moral. Then we lie again. And then we wonder why people keep doing these bad things. Then we lie again.

Well, just because everyone lies, does that make it right? Does that mean that we shouldnt try to STOP lying?

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Well, just because everyone lies, does that make it right? Does that mean that we shouldnt try to STOP lying?

The point is that we have a world full of people who all have their own moral beliefs. The problem is that we all seem intent on pushing our beliefs on others. The problem with THAT is that we're all freaking hypocrites. The Ten Commandments are a great tool. And I will follow every single one of them as soon as you give me a living, breathing individual who can follow them.

Give me a hero.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

The point is that we have a world full of people who all have their own moral beliefs. The problem is that we all seem intent on pushing our beliefs on others. The problem with THAT is that we're all freaking hypocrites. The Ten Commandments are a great tool. And I will follow every single one of them as soon as you give me a living, breathing individual who can follow them.

Give me a hero.

How bout Christ? Would he do?


Anyone and everyone CAN follow the Ten Commandments. In fact, I can follow them, you can follow them, the little old lady down the street can follow them. The ten commandments are very simple to follow, their commands are not beyond our power to follow. But you have to CHOOSE to follow them. Just because you can follow them doesnt mean that you will. You have to be willing to reform your life. Now, will you fall, YES, everyone on earth now sins, but does that mean that after we sin that we should keep on sinning, no we get back up again, repent, and try again. Its one of these "If at first you don't succeed" things, if you sin, get back up, repent, and try again.

 

[Habunake]

Not lying or being lustfu I consider against nature, as everyone does that sometimes.

And for righteous authority, I'm sure you've done that plenty of times when you were little.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

How bout Christ? Would he do?


Anyone and everyone CAN follow the Ten Commandments. In fact, I can follow them, you can follow them, the little old lady down the street can follow them. The ten commandments are very simple to follow, their commands are not beyond our power to follow. But you have to CHOOSE to follow them. Just because you can follow them doesnt mean that you will. You have to be willing to reform your life. Now, will you fall, YES, everyone on earth now sins, but does that mean that after we sin that we should keep on sinning, no we get back up again, repent, and try again. Its one of these "If at first you don't succeed" things, if you sin, get back up, repent, and try again.

Give me someone who's living and breathing. As I said: Give me a hero. A living hero. I have enough dead ones.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

Give me someone who's living and breathing. As I said: Give me a hero. A living hero. I have enough dead ones.

Hmmmmm, do you want someone who never sins? Well, there exists no such person. But does that mean that you can't try to NOT sin. Maybe you should immatate the pope. Hmmmmmm, you know, you seem to like making excuses. If everyone else is gonna sin, you should too, right? So unless I can produce someone who never sins, you have no reason to not sin. So basically, you want total perfection, or you will keep on sinning, meaning that you make no attempt to try to stop sinning. Its not that you can't stop sinning, its that you just plain don't want to stop sinning.

 

[Fig]

I'm sure you like to believe that but heres the fact


The final 6 or 7(Depending on your demonination) commandments are just plain moral. If you break them, you can't call yourself a moral person. Suming it all up, you are just suppossed to not kill

Even if the choice is between killing a dictator or watching thousands suffer under his rule?

steal

Even, say, stealing the weapon of someone you know is about to use that weapon to commit a murder?

lie,

Even if by telling the truth, you condemn an innocent to suffer?

be disobedient to righteous authority.

Even if that righteous authority is acting in a decidedly unrighteous way?

Really, what part of that isnt moral? Those second parts of the commandments arent religious things, they are just plain GOOD rules to follow, no matter what religion you are.

DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

THAT is the problem with black and white morales like the ten commandements. They may be right some times, even MOST of the time, but they are not ALWAYS right.

The Ten commandements offer a simple morale code. The real world, however, isn't simple.

Trying to follow absolutely a simple morale code in a complex world is fit only for a simpleton.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

Even if the choice is between killing a dictator or watching thousands suffer under his rule?



Even, say, stealing the weapon of someone you know is about to use that weapon to commit a murder?



Even if by telling the truth, you condemn an innocent to suffer?



Even if that righteous authority is acting in a decidedly unrighteous way?



DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

THAT is the problem with black and white morales like the ten commandements. They may be right some times, even MOST of the time, but they are not ALWAYS right.

The Ten commandements offer a simple morale code. The real world, however, isn't simple.

Trying to follow absolutely a simple morale code in a complex world is fit only for a simpleton.

There you go again, making foolish assumptions that there are no exceptions for the Ten Commandments. YES, there are circumstances in which you can "break" the Ten Commandments, but than you arent breaking them. If you had actually studied Christian Law, you'd know a little bit more about what the Ten Commands really stand for than you do. You need to read the bible more, and I mean COVER to COVER and not just random versus. Basically, you are totally ignorant of what the church really teaches and therefore, totally misunderstand what they teach.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Its not that you can't stop sinning, its that you just plain don't want to stop sinning.

It's that, apparently, no one can stop sinning. And, wasn't it Jesus who said "let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone." Doesn't that mean that you shouldn't cast judgment on others unless you, yourself, are pure? And, therefore, isn't asking others to live by a series of laws that you, yourself, cannot live by a little...hypocritical? Furthermore, wouldn't that go against Jesus' own words? And, finally, doesn't that mean that anyone who judges others for breaking the same laws they have broken be defying the will of Jesus AND, therefore, the Lord Himself?